Sacred Scriptures

[Avelina777]

So what do you say the correct context of this is, if not that Muhammad isn't the last Prophet?

Not what I was saying...I agree that they think Muhammed is the last prophet, I meant it was out of context to compare it to the Bible. Which was done earlier...I should have been more specific...I apologize.

 

[SanFrank]

A good deal more than it means in Christianity apparently. Things like patience, humility, truthfulness, trustworthiness, kindness, mercy and compassion.

You are referring to yourself here and other muslims in the US that you know personally, or other seemingly even-headed muslims such as JJ. But we cannot apply it to 3/4 of muslims worldwide. Why is that? Grant it, muslims in the US hide under the skirts of Ms Liberty and would not dare express their ideas in iran, turkey, or some other islamic countries. "Thank you Christian American forefathers."

 

[Drunk On Love]

. But we cannot apply it to 3/4 of muslims worldwide. Why is that?

Do the majority of any religion live up to it's highest ideals?

Grant it, muslims in the US hide under the skirts of Ms Liberty and would not dare express their ideas in iran, turkey, or some other islamic countries.

My understanding of Islam has been informed by both modern Iranian and Turkish authors. Iranians like Dr Javid Nurbaksh, Muhammad Husayn Tabatabaei, Seyyed Hossein Nasr, Sayyid Mujtaba Musavi Lari, Ayatollah Ja'far Sobhani, or Turks like Sheikh Muzzafer Ozak and Tosun Bayrak al-Jerhai al- halveti.

 

[SanFrank]

What? That they want the right to build mosques and practice their own religion as is their constitutional right?

Plenty of muslim females go about without hijab. I think it's a silly tradition only and not fully required from hadith so if some sects prefer it in public work places, I'll just take my business elsewhere. They make too much fuss and use EEOC to sue workplaces. They have another agenda in mind.

Apparently you've never bothered to check on all the fatwas condemning terrorism.

So fatwas are useless?

One female reporter gets molested and suddenly it is what all Muslims do.

That's what you call prejudice and bigotry.

There were other women, Egyptian females who wished for a change in government also. Raped by their own brothers; refer to Isaiah 19.

Now on this subject; what keeps muslim men from acting on this ayat?

sura 4.20 "But if ye wish to exchange one wife for another, and have given one of them a talent, then take not from it anything. What! would you take it for a calumny and a manifest crime?"
​

Muslims keep saying 'allah' is the same G*d as the bible but exchanging one wife for another, on a wish no less, is prohibited except in cases of unfaithfulness. Think about the poor wife being thrown to the side. Good grief. Such a thing speaks from our consciousness also but that contradicts qur'an's 'allah'. Maybe I'm wrong in that the arab culture demands it and so on that basis, it got into the qur'an. I'm getting carried away; no disrespect meant.

 

[SanFrank]

Do the majority of any religion live up to it's highest ideals?

True! Thank you for pointing that out.

Are you saying 'highest ideals' is the gauge for obtaining those things like patience, humility, truthfulness, trustworthiness, kindness, mercy and compassion? That's the difference between muslims in the US and islamic extremists.

 

[smaneck]

Out of context

Prove it.

 

[smaneck]

(Ephesians 5:25) "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it"

Unless you think the church is on equal footing with Christ, that's not equality.

I'm not EO. Never even seen one of their buildings. I am drawn to their understanding of Scripture, and most of their ways seem both rich and legit. I'm not sure on this particular stance you raise

Ah, sorry. I thought you were saying you had joined their church. A lot of Protestants these days are doing that.

Good! I trust you know it is one of the more frequently misapplied passages. I would hope you would help stamp out functional illiteracy on the matter, and not spread it.

Down here people are not going to want to hear that when Christians are speaking in tongues they are doing the same thing as the Greek Oracles did.

I wouldn't conflate a woman's leadership role in Church, with the Bible not specifying that a woman needs to walk in her husband's shadow, so to speak.

I don't think they are separate issues. The presumption is that man takes the leadership position whether in church or at home.

 

[JJWhite]

So fatwas are useless?

Just a side. The word fatwa means a verdict based on opinion... or a legal OPINION.

One of my favorite ahadith, which uses this word, is "Istafti nafsak wa in aftaak an-naas wa aftawk".

Translated into English (idiomatic speech not word for word): Seek counsel from yourself, even if people give you their opinions left and right.

I'm a person that respects the scholars and takes their words and opinions very much into consideration when deciding what to do. However, each person owes it to themselves to be honest with himself/herself.

One has to do what sits right with their conscience. There will almost always be someone who condemns an act and another who praises it, so one has to do what they feel is right in their heart.

This does not mean not to study or look into the evidence provided by people for their opinions or not to use logic and reason... those are important too.

 

[JJWhite]

Excuse poor English up there... lol.

 

[smaneck]

You are referring to yourself here and other muslims in the US that you know personally,

1. I'm not a Muslim (well, maybe with a little 'm.')
2. Most of the Muslims I know don't live in the US. My father-in-law was a Muslim. He lived in India.

or other seemingly even-headed muslims such as JJ. But we cannot apply it to 3/4 of muslims worldwide.

What exactly do you know about the 3/4 of Muslims world-wide? Have you checked this out? It is based on Gallup poles conducted world-wide:

Inside Islam: What a Billion Muslims Really Think | Watch the Documentary Film Free Online | SnagFilms

 

[JJWhite]

Are you saying 'highest ideals' is the gauge for obtaining those things like patience, humility, truthfulness, trustworthiness, kindness, mercy and compassion? That's the difference between muslims in the US and islamic extremists.

Most Muslims overseas are not religious extremists, unless you mean extreme on the side of non-observance of religion. In Egypt, the majority do not practice even the basic five pillars of Islam (besides the first), let alone anything else.

 

[smaneck]

Grant it, muslims in the US hide under the skirts of Ms Liberty and would not dare express their ideas in iran, turkey, or some other islamic countries. "Thank you Christian American forefathers."

You are not seriously comparing Iran to Turkey are you?

Clearly you know nothing about Islam in Turkey!

By the way our American forefathers were more often Deists than Christians.

 

[SanFrank]

Unless you think the church is on equal footing with Christ, that's not equality.

I would disagree as many faithful believers also gave themselves for Christ.

 

[JJWhite]

Most Muslims overseas are not religious extremists, unless you mean extreme on the side of non-observance of religion. In Egypt, the majority do not practice even the basic five pillars of Islam (besides the first), let alone anything else.

Of course, there's good and bad in everybody.

 

[SanFrank]

What exactly do you know about the 3/4 of Muslims world-wide? Have you checked this out? It is based on Gallup poles conducted world-wide:

Inside Islam: What a Billion Muslims Really Think | Watch the Documentary Film Free Online | SnagFilms

I'll check it out and give this game another whirl.

 

[smaneck]

Plenty of muslim females go about without hijab. I think it's a silly tradition only and not fully required from hadith

I don't know that there is any ambiguity in the hadith on this issue. Whether the hadith requires women to veil their faces is much more debatable. The reason so many Muslim women feel free not to wear the hijab is because a lot of Muslims no longer consider hadiths all that authoritative.

so if some sects prefer it in public work places, I'll just take my business elsewhere.

That's called discrimination.

They make too much fuss and use EEOC to sue workplaces.

That's what you do when you are a victim of discrimination. You've just proven that it exists.

So fatwas are useless?

People like Bin Laden issue their own fatwas.

There were other women, Egyptian females who wished for a change in government also. Raped by their own brothers;

Evidence? I've never heard of Muslims raping their sisters for their political views.

Now on this subject; what keeps muslim men from acting on this ayat?

sura 4.20 "But if ye wish to exchange one wife for another, and have given one of them a talent, then take not from it anything. What! would you take it for a calumny and a manifest crime?"​

You do realize that what this ayat is saying is that if you divorce a woman you can't take back the dowry?

Yes, there are divorces in the Muslim world, though not as frequently as the West.

​

Muslims keep saying 'allah' is the same G*d as the bible but exchanging one wife for another, on a wish no less, is prohibited except in cases of unfaithfulness.

The New Testament says you can't get a divorce but the Old Testament says you can. Isn't it the same God?
There is a hadith where Muhammad says, "There is nothing which God has permitted but which He hates more than divorce."

Think about the poor wife being thrown to the side.

That's why she gets to keep the dowry, and the Qur'an says it would be criminal to take it from her.

You seem to be forgetting that the divorce rate in the Islamic world is nowhere near as high as it is in the West.

 

[SanFrank]

You are not seriously comparing Iran to Turkey are you?

Clearly you know nothing about Islam in Turkey!

There is extremism on both fronts.

By the way our American forefathers were more often Deists than Christians.

Our?

Yeah, with the majority and prevailing mindset based on lutheran, methodists, protestants, and presbyterians. And a few free masons.

 

[JJWhite]

Our?

Umm... what's that question supposed to mean?

 

[SanFrank]

I don't know that there is any ambiguity in the hadith on this issue. Whether the hadith requires women to veil their faces is much more debatable. The reason so many Muslim women feel free not to wear the hijab is because a lot of Muslims no longer consider hadiths all that authoritative.
That's called discrimination.
That's what you do when you are a victim of discrimination. You've just proven that it exists.

You proved my point that the hijab is not necessary making the lawsuits frivolous and an abuse of the system!

People like Bin Laden issue their own fatwas.

Thanks for pointing this out. Accordingly, issuing a million fatwas is what's needed to keep suicide bombers and hamas in check.

Evidence? I've never heard of Muslims raping their sisters for their political views.

Activist: Egypt's leaders label female protesters 'prostitutes' - CNN.com

You do realize that what this ayat is saying is that if you divorce a woman you can't take back the dowry?

Yes, there are divorces in the Muslim world, though not as frequently as the West.

Couples in the West divorce for reasons of infidelity, mainly. The sura stipulates separation on a mere wish of the male; ie. the male wishes for a younger companion.

The New Testament says you can't get a divorce but the Old Testament says you can. Isn't it the same God?

The NT, like the OT, stipulates divorce on the basis of unfaithfulness ONLY.

 

[smaneck]

I would disagree as many faithful believers also gave themselves for Christ.

And this has what to do with the price of tea in China?