Sacred Scriptures

[Avelina777]

You're forgetting that the whole story is told in the stars, and therefore not subject to historical revision.

Amen brother

 

[merryheart]

No one ever said Rumi was a Prophet, but the Qur'an never suggested that revelation would cease. On the contrary, it asserts that the Word of God can never be exhausted.

where in the qu'ran is this from?

thanks

 

[Avelina777]

where in the qu'ran is this from?

thanks

exactly !!!

 

[merryheart]

exactly !!!

no - i am not doubting it, i want to know where it is so i can use it in another conversation i am having

 

[Avelina777]

no - i am not doubting it, i want to know where it is so i can use it in another conversation i am having

Well i know it is not in there, but if they provide evidence it will be out of context...just saying is all.

 

[JJWhite]

no - i am not doubting it, i want to know where it is so i can use it in another conversation i am having

Don't know that the sister and I have the same interpretation, but this is one verse I can think of off the top of my head that talks about that:

Say, "If the sea were ink for [writing] the words of my Lord, the sea would be exhausted before the words of my Lord were exhausted, even if We brought the like of it as a supplement." (18:109)

 

[JJWhite]

31:27... that's another one...

And if all the trees on the earth were pens and the sea, with seven seas behind it to add to it, yet the Words of Allah would not be exhausted. Verily, Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Yes, notoriously true.

Not if you ask people who actually make an intellectual effort to view these matters in an unbiased fashion.

Fun fact: In 1263 at the Disputation of Barcelona, Nahmanides expressed the Jewish viewpoint of Isaiah 53 and other matters regarding Christian belief about Jesus's role in Hebrew Scripture. The disputation was awarded in his favor by James I of Aragon, and as a result the Dominican Order compelled him to flee from his home country for the remainder of his life. Passages of Talmud were also censored. In a number of other disputations, debate about this passage resulted in forced conversions, deportations, and the burning of Jewish religious texts.

And impossible to fake a millennium in advance in such a way that it would line up at the right time. You're forgetting that the whole story is told in the stars, and therefore not subject to historical revision.

Actually, I'm not forgetting it, because I don't have the slightest inkling what you're talking about. Are you referencing the pious myth of the star of Bethlehem? You don't need to study astronomy OR have more than some scanty knowledge of how you can establish coordinates to figure out that no star (or star-like sign, IOW a conjunction of several planets, a comet etc.) could ever point to a specific place on the globe.

Furthermore, we're obviously arguing from very different starting points: you assume that everything told in the gospels is historical truth. I assume (based on many, many factors) that all the parts pertaining to Jesus's ancestry, birth, and infancy were made up from whole cloth, and specifically written to "fulfill" the prophecies.

 

[JJWhite]

Fun fact: In 1263 at the Disputation of Barcelona, Nahmanides expressed the Jewish viewpoint of Isaiah 53 and other matters regarding Christian belief about Jesus's role in Hebrew Scripture. The disputation was awarded in his favor by James I of Aragon, and as a result the Dominican Order compelled him to flee from his home country for the remainder of his life. Passages of Talmud were also censored. In a number of other disputations, debate about this passage resulted in forced conversions, deportations, and the burning of Jewish religious texts.

Ooh... I loved the movie.

The Disputation 1 of 5 - YouTube

 

[razeontherock]

One Sunday he caught one of the shows of the TV evangelists. He looked at me in amazement and exclaimed, "They are worse than the mullas!"

Worse in what way? And who?

 

[razeontherock]

Now that, admittedly is a problem with both the Bible and the Qur'an. Somethings written there are simply not applicable for today (like women keeping silent in church.) Nor do I think women should be submissive to their husbands as the Bible says

You've put up a string of sensible posts, but this collection here needs to be addressed. Following a 7th century Arab man is not a problem with the Bible, neither does any comparable thing pose a problem for a Christian. And no, it does not promote mysogeny. There is a specific context to keeping silent in Church, and I can't believe you aren't familiar with all that. Likewise, a husband is to also be submissive to his wife, with both being equally under the Lord, as Scripture makes clear. It seems your perception is based more on the South than it is on Scripture?

 

[razeontherock]

Actually, I'm not forgetting it, because I don't have the slightest inkling what you're talking about.

Furthermore, we're obviously arguing from very different starting points: you assume that everything told in the gospels is historical truth. I assume (based on many, many factors) that all the parts pertaining to Jesus's ancestry, birth, and infancy were made up from whole cloth, and specifically written to "fulfill" the prophecies.

I'm really not too worried about little details like that. I'm a big picture person, and at least you're admitting that there's a lot to the big picture that you're unaware of.

That G-d would dwell amongst us, partake of not only our humanity but also the entire issue of theodicy, and conquer the law of sin and death, rising above it victoriously. This is spelled out over and over again in countless ways, not at all limited to the backwards little tribe of the Hebrews. And not limited to texts of questionable origin, but it's in the stars themselves ...

Can't really blame Nicea for that

 

[smaneck]

where in the qu'ran is this from?

thanks

Happy to oblige:


109. Say: "If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the words of my Lord, even if we added another ocean like it, for its aid."

(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 18)

 

[smaneck]

Well i know it is not in there, but if they provide evidence it will be out of context...just saying is all.

O ye of little faith!

109. Say: "If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the words of my Lord, even if we added another ocean like it, for its aid."

(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 18)

Now you'll have to go and check the context.

 

[smaneck]

Worse in what way? And who?

I think he was listening to Jimmy Swaggert who was talking about how America is the biggest, the bravest, the boldest and the best all because we are Christians. I was only half listening, but it was something about victorious Christian living and how the Bible could make us healthy, wealthy and wise, with the emphasis on wealthy, of course.

 

[smaneck]

You've put up a string of sensible posts, but this collection here needs to be addressed. Following a 7th century Arab man is not a problem with the Bible, neither does any comparable thing pose a problem for a Christian. And no, it does not promote mysogeny. There is a specific context to keeping silent in Church, and I can't believe you aren't familiar with all that. Likewise, a husband is to also be submissive to his wife, with both being equally under the Lord, as Scripture makes clear.

Sorry, but the word 'equally' is something you added to the text and nowhere is the word 'submissive' used in relation of a husband with his wife. If I'm wrong, show me. Granted Paul says that in Christ there is neither male nor female but he also says that the head of Christ is God, the head of man is Christ and the head of woman is man. That's a pretty clear hierarchy with women at the bottom. And it does indeed create a lot of problems for some Christian women. They cannot be priests in the two largest churches including your own Eastern Orthodox church (can they even be deacons?) And yes, I am aware of the oracle tradition behind asking women to remain silent in church and how that was a particular problem for the church in Corinth.

It seems your perception is based more on the South than it is on Scripture?

Granted here in the Bible belt Christians are more likely to take such verses seriously than the church I was raised in up north. But if a woman's leadership is acceptable in your church then why doesn't it ordain women?

 

[Avelina777]

I'm really not too worried about little details like that. I'm a big picture person, and at least you're admitting that there's a lot to the big picture that you're unaware of.

That G-d would dwell amongst us, partake of not only our humanity but also the entire issue of theodicy, and conquer the law of sin and death, rising above it victoriously. This is spelled out over and over again in countless ways, not at all limited to the backwards little tribe of the Hebrews. And not limited to texts of questionable origin, but it's in the stars themselves ...

Can't really blame Nicea for that

that is how beautiful God works it is all in the stars!!!

 

[Avelina777]

O ye of little faith!

109. Say: "If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the words of my Lord, even if we added another ocean like it, for its aid."

(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 18)

Now you'll have to go and check the context.

Out of context

 

[razeontherock]

Sorry, but the word 'equally' is something you added to the text and nowhere is the word 'submissive' used in relation of a husband with his wife. If I'm wrong, show me.

(Ephesians 5:25) "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it"

It is no surprise that Church teaching on this has not supported what this really means, but this is not merely "advice to be good." Neither is a wife to submit to a husband in the wrong.

They cannot be priests in the two largest churches including your own Eastern Orthodox church (can they even be deacons?)

I'm not EO. Never even seen one of their buildings. I am drawn to their understanding of Scripture, and most of their ways seem both rich and legit. I'm not sure on this particular stance you raise

And yes, I am aware of the oracle tradition behind asking women to remain silent in church and how that was a particular problem for the church in Corinth.

Good! I trust you know it is one of the more frequently misapplied passages. I would hope you would help stamp out functional illiteracy on the matter, and not spread it.

Granted here in the Bible belt Christians are more likely to take such verses seriously than the church I was raised in up north. But if a woman's leadership is acceptable in your church then why doesn't it ordain women?

I wouldn't conflate a woman's leadership role in Church, with the Bible not specifying that a woman needs to walk in her husband's shadow, so to speak. I would say that experience proves such thinking doesn't work, but ... I've only spent a few days in the south, and those were visiting my Sister. As you can well imagine, her household isn't functioning like that ...

 

[razeontherock]

Out of context

So what do you say the correct context of this is, if not that Muhammad isn't the last Prophet?