Sacred Scriptures

[razeontherock]

Too many Christians are forgetting that the Tanak is not really their scriptures. So what happened during the Dark Ages etc. is really irrelevant to Old Testament Canon.

No it's not! Either the Church changed it all up, or it didn't. As it turns out, it didn't. If OT was preserved, that makes it much more likely NT was as well.

What's perhaps a bit more complicated is what we do with the Apocrypha. Luther threw it out of the Bible, but much of the New Testament doesn't make any sense unless read in the context of works written during the Intertestamental period.

I'm told Luther didn't do that at all, but arranged it into it's own section. I will agree Jasher and Enoch both add insight to NT, but to say NT makes no sense w/o Apocrypha? I wouldn't go that far ...

 

[smaneck]

But those few verses establish clearly that Muhammad is in charge.

It doesn't depict a person trying to 'be in charge' like you suggested. Obviously, after during the Meccan period he was in charge.

Right.But the description of the natural phenomenon is in tune with the undestanding of 7th century people.That makes it mundane and not miraculous.

What makes the Qur'an miraculous is its ability to transform the hearts of men. Everything else is superfluous, IMO.

Your notion of 'miraculous' reminds me of a story told by the great Sufi mystic Rumi. It seems a man was will and consulted with a physician. He asked the doctor, "Are you a skilled physician." And the doctor said "yes", and proceeded to prove it by flying around the room. That was, of course, impressive but didn't really answer the question as to whether he was capable of healing the patient.

I'm not going to judge scripture on the basis of the perfection of its grammar or whether it accords with modern science. I am interested only in the transforming nature of its spiritual power.

 

[smaneck]

I will agree Jasher and Enoch both add insight to NT, but to say NT makes no sense w/o Apocrypha? I wouldn't go that far ...

Not the whole NT but certainly the Book of Revelation. Evangelical Christians make mince meat out of that text because they don't understand the context.

 

[razeontherock]

What makes the Qur'an miraculous is its ability to transform the hearts of men.

Your notion of 'miraculous' reminds me of a story told by the great Sufi mystic Rumi. It seems a man was will and consulted with a physician. He asked the doctor, "Are you a skilled physician." And the doctor said "yes", and proceeded to prove it by flying around the room. That was, of course, impressive but didn't really answer the question as to whether he was capable of healing the patient.

I am interested only in the transforming nature of its spiritual power.

Excellent point! Ya know, one has to wonder how many here would have any interest in Quran if it weren't for 911. And of course the events of that day have nothing to do with your point here

 

[razeontherock]

Not the whole NT but certainly the Book of Revelation. Evangelical Christians make mince meat out of that text because they don't understand the context.

Which reminds me, I still haven't gotten to John's pupil's teaching on that book ... "Against Heresies" Volumes 4 & 5, IIRC. Haven't found a way to get to just what I'm looking for, and boy are those dry and dusty ...

 

[dlamberth]

I'm told Luther didn't do that at all, but arranged it into it's own section. I will agree Jasher and Enoch both add insight to NT, but to say NT makes no sense w/o Apocrypha? I wouldn't go that far ...

During the time of Jesus, and before, Enoch was a HUGE influence on Jewish thought. I don't believe that todays Christians understand the amount of influence that Enoch had on those first Jewish followers of Jesus. Today, it's become an all but forgotton book for most.

.

 

[smaneck]

I used to think that too, but a Jew here pointed out Judaism never says this and in fact, the Bible has a Gentile Prophet, Balaam son of Beor

I'm not sure that Balaam is regarded as prophet in the same sense as an Isaiah and Jeremiah. I think he was more like an oracle.

You are correct that modern Jews do not hold that revelation is limited to Jews, but that wasn't the case of the Jews of Medina in Muhammad's time. They were mocking him for claiming to be Prophet when he was an Arab and not a Jew.

When I was seventeen and a freshman in college I attended a debate between a Rabbi, a Christian minister, and a Muslim Imam. Unfortunately the Muslim was an ultra-rigid fundamentalist type. When he insisted there would be no more prophets after Muhammad, I couldn't hold my tongue any more. I raised my hand and asked: "Aren't you saying that the Hand of God is tied up?"
The Jew nearly swallowed his pipe. He jumped up and said, "That's right! That's right! Jews don't say that the Hand of God is tied up, that's what Muslims are saying."

 

[razeontherock]

Men will be boys, eh?

I'm not sure that Balaam is regarded as prophet in the same sense as an Isaiah and Jeremiah.

Agreed. I hadn't even considered he was a Prophet, but ... yup.

You are correct that modern Jews do not hold that revelation is limited to Jews, but that wasn't the case of the Jews of Medina in Muhammad's time.

Interesting

 

[smaneck]

Excellent point! Ya know, one has to wonder how many here would have any interest in Quran if it weren't for 911.

Unfortunately that is the lens through which too many Christians read that book.

And of course the events of that day have nothing to do with your point here

I guess the Qur'an has about as much to do with 9-11 as the Gospels have to do with the Holocaust.

 

[JJWhite]

Smaneck, I just looked up three or four tafseers. They all mention that the verse about it being said that God's hand was tied up was revealed when some Jewish dude named Phinhas who was a chieftain of Qaynuqaa' said that when their economy was going bad and none of his people, not even the learned, spoke up against his statement.

I've never heard that it had anything to do with them saying that God tied His Hands from delivering another messenger.

There are other verses that portray them as refusing to accept his prophethood because he wasn't Jewish, but this isn't one of them according to any of our sources that I've come across.

 

[Rationalt]

It doesn't depict a person trying to 'be in charge' like you suggested.

Lol.

Obviously, after during the Meccan period he was in charge.

He was trying to be incharge even in mecca that led to his expulsion.
Check meccan surah 7 specifically quran 7:3, 157

What makes the Qur'an miraculous is its ability to transform the hearts of men. Everything else is superfluous, IMO.

This argument was put forward by somebody in this forum.Jane mentioned scientology doing the same thing.

Your notion of 'miraculous' reminds me of a story told by the great Sufi mystic Rumi.

There was a rather lengthy discussion on rumi at the thread http://www.christianforums.com/t7579140/ where i argued that rumi's ideas run counter to Quran and Muhammad.

 

[Daniel25]

To OP's topic: I don't think you'll find any ancient sacred text that would contain words of a supreme deity except for offshoots of Abraham's god. The early pious RC made sure that none of the pagan sacred texts survived. In the East, there was no need for text from a god because every Joe Schmoe monarch was the Son of God!

while the idea of the Church being so monumentally efficient is flattering to it, a more plausible explanation is the pagans were functionally illiterate.

 

[smaneck]

while the idea of the Church being so monumentally efficient is flattering to it, a more plausible explanation is the pagans were functionally illiterate.

That depends on what you mean by 'pagan.' If you are talking about polytheists in general they most certainly were not illiterate in the Roman Empire. But the term 'pagan' is derived from the word paganus which literally means something a country bumpkin. That is because people in the urban areas tended to convert to monotheistic religions before people in the countryside. They, of course, would have been largely illiterate. There is a reason Islam refers to the followers of monotheistic religions as "People of the Book."

 

[smaneck]

There was a rather lengthy discussion on rumi at the thread http://www.christianforums.com/t7579140/ where i argued that rumi's ideas run counter to Quran and Muhammad.

And could present no valid arguments that this was the case. al-Khidr for instance, is the name Muslims give to a figure in the Qur'an who accompanies Moses in his search for truth.

And no, the Qur'an does not suggest that Muhammad is the only person who receives illumination. In fact nearly all of the other Prophets are discussed more than Muhammad is.

 

[SanFrank]

What makes the Qur'an miraculous is its ability to transform the hearts of men. Everything else is superfluous, IMO.

On that note, I have yet to see a positive transformation towards good and love. I see only intense fear and hatred on the part of muslims, disrespect towards christians/jews, arrogance, and a spirit of intimidation.

I'm not going to judge scripture on the basis of the perfection of its grammar or whether it accords with modern science. I am interested only in the transforming nature of its spiritual power.

What does "spiritual power" even mean in islam?

 

[Drunk On Love]

I see only intense fear and hatred on the part of muslims, disrespect towards christians/jews, arrogance, and a spirit of intimidation.

I certainly apologize if I've shown anything like that. I don't believe I have but maybe some of my statements are being misunderstood.

It seems you may have come across some bad apples in your interactions with Muslims?

 

[razeontherock]

I certainly apologize if I've shown anything like that.

You haven't. What Frank is depicting, I think can only be experienced IRL, not online. I've certainly never seen any intimidation coming from a Muslim, but I have seen plenty of fear, for no apparent reason. Makes discussion rather difficult.

 

[smaneck]

On that note, I have yet to see a positive transformation towards good and love. I see only intense fear and hatred on the part of muslims, disrespect towards christians/jews, arrogance, and a spirit of intimidation.

Given your description of them as 'the enemy' who you don't even want to understand, who gloat about roasting in a lake of fire, what do you suppose they have seen of your Christian 'love and goodness'? All I see is your intense fanatical fear and hatred, your disrespect and arrogance.

What does "spiritual power" even mean in islam?

A good deal more than it means in Christianity apparently. Things like patience, humility, truthfulness, trustworthiness, kindness, mercy and compassion.

 

[smaneck]

I've certainly never seen any intimidation coming from a Muslim, but I have seen plenty of fear, for no apparent reason.

I think the reason is quite apparent. Some Christians go out of their way to make this a hostile environment.

 

[SanFrank]

I certainly apologize if I've shown anything like that. I don't believe I have but maybe some of my statements are being misunderstood.

It seems you may have come across some bad apples in your interactions with Muslims?

I was not referring to you at all because you seem more aclimated by american influences.

The negativity comes mostly of what I see in european news and current events, problems in France, recorded radio broadcasts of muslim apologists, and yes personal interactions with other muslims.