Sacrament and the Word

ViaCrucis

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1 Timothy 2:5 KJV
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, I see little difference.

The issue here is the sufficiency of Christ.


2 Timothy 3:15 BSB
From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

The issue here is the sufficiency of Scripture.

Whatever happened to the Solas of the Lutheran Reformation? Now we have sacerdotalism in the form of mediators. This sounds like a move back to Rome, I see little difference.

I suspect you may have some serious misnomers about Lutheranism. And perhaps you might be confused exactly about what sacerdotalsm is. Lutheranism rejects sacerdotalism--the belief that priests have a special dispensation of grace that grants the priest an indelible mark by which the priest uniquely can mediate.

The pastor is not a special person; but does, for the good order of the Church, bear the responsibility given to them by the Church to bear the office of the sacred ministry. I.e. The Keys of the kingdom. Pastors don't wield the keys because there is something special about them, but because the keys--which belong to the whole Church--are granted by the Church's own free volition, to be entrusted--for good order--to those vetted and trained to serve as servants, ministers, and under-shepherds.

There is only one Mediator, Jesus. How does He mediate?

The issue I have is the idea of the un-mediated. That is a denial of Christ's Mediatorship; for Christ's Mediatorship happens right here in the Church, through Word and Sacrament.

When pastor says "your sins are forgiven" it is not because my pastor is special, or because my pastor is a mediator between me and God. It is because Christ, the One Mediator, has said, "Whoever's sin you forgive are forgiven them" and this gift of declaring sins forgiven in Christ's name and stead is, out of the Church's own free volition, entrusted to that individual we call "pastor". If a pastor becomes unfit, then they can be withdrawn, pastors are not lords but servants; and the way they serve is by being ministers of Word and Sacrament. Because right here in these Means is Jesus Christ Himself, in His full and entire Person.

I am not washed clean of sins because a pastor applies water to me and says words at me; but because Christ Himself is the one who baptizes me, I am baptized into Christ, I am clothed with Christ. It is a Trinitarian action, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all right here in our baptism; prefigured as it was even in our Lord's own baptism by John at the Jordan River. So I am here, in these waters, adopted by the Father, born again, united to Christ, clothed with God the Son, and given the Holy Spirit. That happened, that happened because God says so. Here is Jesus Christ the One Mediator, who clothes me with Himself, by which I can, with the Spirit in me, now calling His Father my own Father, thereby saying "Abba! Father". I have access to God in and through Christ. How? Because of my baptism.

To reject that is to reject the Mediatorship of Christ. It is instead an attempt toward an unmediated experience and encounter with God apart from Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran.
 
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I suspect you may have some serious misnomers about Lutheranism. And perhaps you might be confused exactly about what sacerdotalsm is. Lutheranism rejects sacerdotalism--the belief that priests have a special dispensation of grace that grants the priest an indelible mark by which the priest uniquely can mediate.

The pastor is not a special person; but does, for the good order of the Church, bear the responsibility given to them by the Church to bear the office of the sacred ministry. I.e. The Keys of the kingdom. Pastors don't wield the keys because there is something special about them, but because the keys--which belong to the whole Church--are granted by the Church's own free volition, to be entrusted--for good order--to those vetted and trained to serve as servants, ministers, and under-shepherds.

There is only one Mediator, Jesus. How does He mediate?

The issue I have is the idea of the un-mediated. That is a denial of Christ's Mediatorship; for Christ's Mediatorship happens right here in the Church, through Word and Sacrament.

When pastor says "your sins are forgiven" it is not because my pastor is special, or because my pastor is a mediator between me and God. It is because Christ, the One Mediator, has said, "Whoever's sin you forgive are forgiven them" and this gift of declaring sins forgiven in Christ's name and stead is, out of the Church's own free volition, entrusted to that individual we call "pastor". If a pastor becomes unfit, then they can be withdrawn, pastors are not lords but servants; and the way they serve is by being ministers of Word and Sacrament. Because right here in these Means is Jesus Christ Himself, in His full and entire Person.

I am not washed clean of sins because a pastor applies water to me and says words at me; but because Christ Himself is the one who baptizes me, I am baptized into Christ, I am clothed with Christ. It is a Trinitarian action, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all right here in our baptism; prefigured as it was even in our Lord's own baptism by John at the Jordan River. So I am here, in these waters, adopted by the Father, born again, united to Christ, clothed with God the Son, and given the Holy Spirit. That happened, that happened because God says so. Here is Jesus Christ the One Mediator, who clothes me with Himself, by which I can, with the Spirit in me, now calling His Father my own Father, thereby saying "Abba! Father". I have access to God in and through Christ. How? Because of my baptism.

To reject that is to reject the Mediatorship of Christ. It is instead an attempt toward an unmediated experience and encounter with God apart from Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran.
I really don't want to make this thread about ME. (although 'Me' is a big problem lol), but I appreciate your time and effort in explaining this. (I'll continue asking).

For example, I know that the pastor is not special, but why do I need to hear "Your sins are forgiven"?, when i can read it in the scriptures, 'all who call on the name of the lord, shall be saved' or 'we have remission of sins through the shed blood of Jesus Christ'. I can confidently trust God's Word over man's word, (especially if he is parroting a formula from the Confessions of his Church).

Weren't those entrusted with those words of forgiveness witnesses to the resurrection? Jn20:20

We are clothed in His righteousness (Rom 4:3) and have received of His Spirit Gal (3:2) through faith in the Gospel

Isn't our walk a walk of faith and not of sight (Sacraments et al). I don't reject the Mediatorship of Christ, I just take Jesus at His Word...

(Joh 20:29) Jesus says to him, “Because you have seen Me, Thomas, you have believed; blessed are those having not seen, and having believed.”
 
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ViaCrucis

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I really don't want to make this thread about ME. (although 'Me' is a big problem lol), but I appreciate your time and effort in explaining this. (I'll continue asking).

For example, I know that the pastor is not special, but why do I need to hear "Your sins are forgiven"?, when i can read it in the scriptures, 'all who call on the name of the lord, shall be saved' or 'we have remission of sins through the shed blood of Jesus Christ'. I can confidently trust God's Word over man's word, (especially if he is parroting a formula from the Confessions of his Church).

Key, here, is that "your sins are forgiven" is what Christ says. He died for you. His blood was shed for you. That's the Good News, that's Jesus' Gospel. You, a sinner, are ransomed with the precious blood of Jesus Christ, you are forgiven.

Those words, therefore, are necessary because they are true. They are, literally, Gospel.

Do you need Jesus right now? Do you need the precious shed blood of Jesus right now--today, this very moment? How about tomorrow, will you need Jesus tomorrow?

YES! Of course you do. We all do. We do not have a religion that says, "A long time ago there was a man named Jesus, who also happened to be God, and He did this thing for us, and isn't that nice--now go earn your way into God's favor". We have a religion that says Christ died as the Lamb of God slain from before the foundation of the world. The everlasting Gospel, the Good News, from God, to us sinners is Jesus Christ, born of Mary, who suffered under Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried, who rose on the third day.

It's not as though I used to be a sinner, but then I signed my name on the dotted line and, like a transaction, God says "Okay, I guess you don't have to go to hell now". No! Christ destroyed the very power of hell by dying, to destroy the works of the devil, to destroy the slavery which binds us--a slavery that binds us in our own bones (c.f. Romans 7:23).

I need Jesus, I need Jesus every hour. Do you recall that old hymn? "I need Thee every hour"

"I need Thee, O I need Thee,
Every hour I need Thee,
O bless me now, my Savior,
I come to Thee"

So where can we go where Jesus has promised to be? Of course He is Lord, He is the Sovereign God-Man, He is everywhere. But where does He direct us, in Scripture, to meet Him? It's in His Church, how? Because that's where His Gospel is preached, that's where you can hear Him, you can hear the very voice of the Good Shepherd. Audible like thunder from the sky? No, but in what is said, declared, proclaimed, and given when we come together to hear the word preached, to receive His body and blood. To hear we are forgiven.

Where is the promise of this declaration of sins--Absolution--found in Scripture? There are two primary places, Matthew chapter 16 and John chapter 20,

"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." - Matthew 16:19

"Jesus said to them again, 'Peace be with you. As the Father has sent Me, even so I am sending you.' And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.'" - John 20:21-23

Now Rome claims that these Keys were given only to St. Peter, and that only, therefore, the bishop who sits in St. Peter's chair in Rome wields these keys, and through valid Holy Orders, by which the office of priest (bishops and presbyters) in communion with Christ's singular vicar in Rome (the Pope) can the keys be exercised.

Luther, the Lutheran fathers, and in the Lutheran Confessions we all--in agreement with the ancient fathers of the holy catholic Church--understand here that the Keys are not given to Peter exclusively or uniquely--no individual wields or possesses the Keys. The Keys belong to the whole Church. And what are these Keys? A kind of supernatural magisterial authority? No. It is the authority of the Church, as Christ's Body (with Himself as Head and Lord) by which Christ Himself acts and speaks.

There is yet another passage, in Luke's Gospel Christ tells His apostles to be His witnesses, and that forgiveness of sins should be preached in His name. That's what the Church does, and the Church does that not in a chaotic, disorganized mess (read 1 Corinthians, especially chapters 11-14); but as a fellowship of organized love and peace, where we come to the Table of His Peace. We come to the Table, Christ is seated there, this is His house, and He takes the head position at the Table.

So when we come into Christ's house, are at His Table, and we hear Him speak, what is it He says? What is it He does?

It's everything that is in the Gospel. Every jot and tittle of Holy Scripture, as it speaks to the promises we have from God in Jesus are ours--He is there, He gives them, He declares them. It is efficacious, it is living, it is active, it is powerful because Christ is here in our midst. Not figuratively, not proverbially, not allegorically. Jesus, the actual Jesus, the Living, Incarnate, Crucified, Resurrected Jesus, is here.

So when we confess our sins, what is the promise we have in God's Word? "He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9)

When you hear "Your sins are forgiven", you should come away in confidence: You are forgiven. God forgives you. Because you are worthy of it? No. Because pastors are special people that can do special things? No. But because the Lord of Glory came down out from heaven and suffered and died for you, dear sinner, that you should share in His inheritance forever. Hear and believe this, for this is most certainly true.

Weren't those entrusted with those words of forgiveness witnesses to the resurrection? Jn20:20

We are clothed in His righteousness (Rom 4:3) and have received of His Spirit Gal (3:2) through faith in the Gospel

Isn't our walk a walk of faith and not of sight (Sacraments et al). I don't reject the Mediatorship of Christ, I just take Jesus at His Word...

(Joh 20:29) Jesus says to him, “Because you have seen Me, Thomas, you have believed; blessed are those having not seen, and having believed.”

Question, is the Cross important to you right now, in this moment right now? By important, I don't mean do you consider it meaningful, or relevant; I mean, is the Cross what you need right now, at this very moment. Do you need the Cross right this moment, that you can know God and be right with God? Or were you made right with God once already, and now you can shuffle away from the Cross toward something else?

Dear sinner, Is there not salvation, right here, right now, at this very moment, for you to receive? And the same will be true, will it not, tomorrow, and the day after. And each day after that one? That right now, salvation comes from God, for you? His blood was shed, for you; and it is for you now, just as it was yesterday, just as it will be tomorrow? His blood was shed for you, it's for you. It's for you right now. Believe this, for it is most certainly true.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Key, here, is that "your sins are forgiven" is what Christ says. He died for you. His blood was shed for you. That's the Good News, that's Jesus' Gospel. You, a sinner, are ransomed with the precious blood of Jesus Christ, you are forgiven.
Yes, that is what I read in Scripture.
Those words, therefore, are necessary because they are true. They are, literally, Gospel.
Again, in Scripture.
Do you need Jesus right now? Do you need the precious shed blood of Jesus right now--today, this very moment? How about tomorrow, will you need Jesus tomorrow?
Yes, as we all do need Him. For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; Acts 17:38a
YES! Of course you do. We all do. We do not have a religion that says, "A long time ago there was a man named Jesus, who also happened to be God, and He did this thing for us, and isn't that nice--now go earn your way into God's favor". We have a religion that says Christ died as the Lamb of God slain from before the foundation of the world. The everlasting Gospel, the Good News, from God, to us sinners is Jesus Christ, born of Mary, who suffered under Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried, who rose on the third day.
Agreed with the Creed
It's not as though I used to be a sinner, but then I signed my name on the dotted line and, like a transaction, God says "Okay, I guess you don't have to go to hell now". No! Christ destroyed the very power of hell by dying, to destroy the works of the devil, to destroy the slavery which binds us--a slavery that binds us in our own bones (c.f. Romans 7:23).
Sorry, not into Decision Theology
I need Jesus, I need Jesus every hour. Do you recall that old hymn? "I need Thee every hour"

"I need Thee, O I need Thee,
Every hour I need Thee,
O bless me now, my Savior,
I come to Thee"
Yes, as all mankind. BTW, Ms Hawks (lyricist) was a Baptist pastor!
So where can we go where Jesus has promised to be? Of course He is Lord, He is the Sovereign God-Man, He is everywhere. But where does He direct us, in Scripture, to meet Him? It's in His Church, how? Because that's where His Gospel is preached, that's where you can hear Him, you can hear the very voice of the Good Shepherd. Audible like thunder from the sky? No, but in what is said, declared, proclaimed, and given when we come together to hear the word preached, to receive His body and blood. To hear we are forgiven.
Wherever we go, He is already there.
So where can we go where Jesus has promised to be? Of course He is Lord, He is the Sovereign God-Man, He is everywhere. But where does He direct us, in Scripture, to meet Him? It's in His Church, how? Because that's where His Gospel is preached, that's where you can hear Him, you can hear the very voice of the Good Shepherd. Audible like thunder from the sky? No, but in what is said, declared, proclaimed, and given when we come together to hear the word preached, to receive His body and blood. To hear we are forgiven.
I didn't meet Him in Church. I met Him hanging on a cross in a photograph, while I was zoned out on acid 52 years ago
Where is the promise of this declaration of sins--Absolution--found in Scripture? There are two primary places, Matthew chapter 16 and John chapter 20,"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." - Matthew 16:19.
"Jesus said to them again, 'Peace be with you. As the Father has sent Me, even so I am sending you.' And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.'" - John 20:21-23
I see forgiveness all through Scripture, especially in the promises attached to the shed blood of Jesus...

Ephesians 1:7 (KJV) In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Colossians 1:14 (KJV) In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Now Rome claims that these Keys were given only to St. Peter, and that only, therefore, the bishop who sits in St. Peter's chair in Rome wields these keys, and through valid Holy Orders, by which the office of priest (bishops and presbyters) in communion with Christ's singular vicar in Rome (the Pope) can the keys be exercised.Luther, the Lutheran fathers, and in the Lutheran Confessions we all--in agreement with the ancient fathers of the holy catholic Church--understand here that the Keys are not given to Peter exclusively or uniquely--no individual wields or possesses the Keys. The Keys belong to the whole Church. And what are these Keys? A kind of supernatural magisterial authority? No. It is the authority of the Church, as Christ's Body (with Himself as Head and Lord) by which Christ Himself acts and speaks.
I don't plan on heading over to Rome anytime soon.
There is yet another passage, in Luke's Gospel Christ tells His apostles to be His witnesses, and that forgiveness of sins should be preached in His name. That's what the Church does, and the Church does that not in a chaotic, disorganized mess (read 1 Corinthians, especially chapters 11-14); but as a fellowship of organized love and peace, where we come to the Table of His Peace. We come to the Table, Christ is seated there, this is His house, and He takes the head position at the Table.So when we come into Christ's house, are at His Table, and we hear Him speak, what is it He says? What is it He does?
Yes, it is His house with the Words of Institution as it's order at the Lord's Table.
It's everything that is in the Gospel. Every jot and tittle of Holy Scripture, as it speaks to the promises we have from God in Jesus are ours--He is there, He gives them, He declares them. It is efficacious, it is living, it is active, it is powerful because Christ is here in our midst. Not figuratively, not proverbially, not allegorically. Jesus, the actual Jesus, the Living, Incarnate, Crucified, Resurrected Jesus, is here.
That can get deep into the two natures of Christ, which I find both Reformed and Lutheran (Chemnitz) get a bit too speculative for me.
So when we confess our sins, what is the promise we have in God's Word? "He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9)
That's right, the promise is in Scripture (1Jn 1:9) Again, the Sacrament is based on God's written Word.
When you hear "Your sins are forgiven", you should come away in confidence: You are forgiven. God forgives you. Because you are worthy of it? No. Because pastors are special people that can do special things? No. But because the Lord of Glory came down out from heaven and suffered and died for you, dear sinner, that you should share in His inheritance forever. Hear and believe this, for this is most certainly true.
His death for my sinfulness is an objective historical fact, which I have believed for 50+ years, and Him justifying me by faith in Jesus has given me settled peace regarding Judgment.
Question, is the Cross important to you right now, in this moment right now? By important, I don't mean do you consider it meaningful, or relevant; I mean, is the Cross what you need right now, at this very moment. Do you need the Cross right this moment, that you can know God and be right with God? Or were you made right with God once already, and now you can shuffle away from the Cross toward something else?
Jesus and Him crucified is my Life-Blood.
Dear sinner, Is there not salvation, right here, right now, at this very moment, for you to receive? And the same will be true, will it not, tomorrow, and the day after. And each day after that one? That right now, salvation comes from God, for you? His blood was shed, for you; and it is for you now, just as it was yesterday, just as it will be tomorrow? His blood was shed for you, it's for you. It's for you right now. Believe this, for it is most certainly true.
Yes, I believe the promises of the Living God found in His Living Word...

(Heb 4:12) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
 
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CurtUtter

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1 Timothy 2:5 KJV
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, I see little difference.

The issue here is the sufficiency of Christ.


2 Timothy 3:15 BSB
From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

The issue here is the sufficiency of Scripture.

Whatever happened to the Solas of the Lutheran Reformation? Now we have sacerdotalism in the form of mediators. This sounds like a move back to Rome, I see little difference.
The solas are the basis of our Lutheran confessions. We believe in the sufficiency of Christ Jesus through everything.

Sea - Have you used the law of noncontradiction below in regards to beliefs of certain aspects of say Baptism, the Lord's Supper, Confession & Absolution? If you have, try to understand in my next question, I'm using the law of noncontradiction to see which is true in reference to Scripture:
Is what Jesus says true or false? Then if you abide by what He says in John 14:6, relisten to the chapter of John 6. Keep in mind about what I asked and let me know what you hear, placing none of your presuppositions before you listen.
 
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The solas are the basis of our Lutheran confessions. We believe in the sufficiency of Christ Jesus through everything.

Sea - Have you used the law of noncontradiction below in regards to beliefs of certain aspects of say Baptism, the Lord's Supper, Confession & Absolution? If you have, try to understand in my next question, I'm using the law of noncontradiction to see which is true in reference to Scripture:
Is what Jesus says true or false? Then if you abide by what He says in John 14:6, relisten to the chapter of John 6. Keep in mind about what I asked and let me know what you hear, placing none of your presuppositions before you listen.
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. (NKJV)

I had to look up the term...

In logic, the law of non-contradiction (LNC) (also known as the law of contradiction, principle of non-contradiction (PNC), or the principle of contradiction) states that contradictory propositions cannot both be true in the same sense at the same time, e. g. the two propositions "p is the case" and "p is not the case" are mutually exclusive. Formally, this is expressed as the tautology ¬(p ∧ ¬p). The law is not to be confused with the law of excluded middle which states that at least one, "p is the case" or "p is not the case", holds.

When I look at John 14:6, I don't see how the LNC applies, neither do I see any link between Athens (man's logic/philosophy) and Jerusalem (God's revelation).
When I read John chapter 6, I find it impossible to lay aside my presuppositions. Help me out here, what do you have in mind?
 
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CurtUtter

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Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. (NKJV)

I had to look up the term...

In logic, the law of non-contradiction (LNC) (also known as the law of contradiction, principle of non-contradiction (PNC), or the principle of contradiction) states that contradictory propositions cannot both be true in the same sense at the same time, e. g. the two propositions "p is the case" and "p is not the case" are mutually exclusive. Formally, this is expressed as the tautology ¬(p ∧ ¬p). The law is not to be confused with the law of excluded middle which states that at least one, "p is the case" or "p is not the case", holds.

When I look at John 14:6, I don't see how the LNC applies, neither do I see any link between Athens (man's logic/philosophy) and Jerusalem (God's revelation).
When I read John chapter 6, I find it impossible to lay aside my presuppositions. Help me out here, what do you have in mind?
In John 6:22-71, Christ lays out for us His eucharist, in which God acts through material reality. I use the law of noncontradiction to state that Jesus being God defeats those saying that He can't be God. And since He is God (John 1:1: "In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word (Jesus) was with God, and the Word (Jesus) was God.) If Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Then as John 6:52-59 states the obvious truth of his Word combined by the Lord's Supper: "52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum."

From page 73 of Gene Veith's book mentioned in one of my previous posts concerning Holy Communion:
“In the sacrament of Holy Communion, all of Lutheran spirituality is crystalized: God acts, objectively, through matter, embodying the Gospel and promising the forgiveness of sins. And, more than that - or rather, making all of these efficacious - is the real presence of Jesus Christ. This is another astonishing claim, one which many Christians draw back from, but one that is at the pulsing heart of Lutheran evangelicalism”.

Norman Nagel wrote the article "The Spirit's Gifts in the Confessions and in Corinth" in the July 1992, Concordia Journal, page 231:
We shall listen particularly to the Large Catechism on our subject. For of the Large Catechism Dr. Luther said it contains what is vital, "what every Christian should know" (LC Introd. 2. FC Ep. Rule and Norm 5).
Here nothing is confessed of gifts independent of the means of grace (SA III, 8, 10: God will not deal with us except through His external Word and Sacraments). There is much extolling of the gifts thus given.
Without Holy Baptism and the Lord's Supper, no one can be a Christian (LC W, 1). As the Ten Commandments, the Creed and the Lord's Prayer are gifts given by God, so also is Holy Baptism (LC IV, 6). "What it benefits, gives and works" is all summed up in the fact that it saves. "To be saved, we know, is nothing else than to be delivered from sin, death and the devil, and to enter the kingdom of Christ and live with Him forever" (LC IV, 23-25). 'Where God's name is, there must also be life and salvation" (LC IV, 27).


Socrates quote seems proper here 'I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only make them think'. Lutheranism is a hard pill to swallow for the old adam. The old adam's works righteousness is always ready to do something and Jesus just lays out Matthew 11:28-30 to quiet our futile attempts at being God: "28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
 
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And we know that through the written Word, that has been the point of this thread. The Sacrament is dependent on the Word.
Yes. The Salvation Army offers no sacraments. That's the extreme, a reaction to the false sacramental theology. They do not teach against sacraments. Can you be saved and be Salvation Army? For sure. But they miss out on the blessing that accompanies obedience to God's word.
 
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In John 6:22-71, Christ lays out for us His eucharist, in which God acts through material reality. I use the law of noncontradiction to state that Jesus being God defeats those saying that He can't be God. And since He is God (John 1:1: "In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word (Jesus) was with God, and the Word (Jesus) was God.) If Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Then as John 6:52-59 states the obvious truth of his Word combined by the Lord's Supper: "52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum."

From page 73 of Gene Veith's book mentioned in one of my previous posts concerning Holy Communion:
“In the sacrament of Holy Communion, all of Lutheran spirituality is crystalized: God acts, objectively, through matter, embodying the Gospel and promising the forgiveness of sins. And, more than that - or rather, making all of these efficacious - is the real presence of Jesus Christ. This is another astonishing claim, one which many Christians draw back from, but one that is at the pulsing heart of Lutheran evangelicalism”.

Norman Nagel wrote the article "The Spirit's Gifts in the Confessions and in Corinth" in the July 1992, Concordia Journal, page 231:
We shall listen particularly to the Large Catechism on our subject. For of the Large Catechism Dr. Luther said it contains what is vital, "what every Christian should know" (LC Introd. 2. FC Ep. Rule and Norm 5).
Here nothing is confessed of gifts independent of the means of grace (SA III, 8, 10: God will not deal with us except through His external Word and Sacraments). There is much extolling of the gifts thus given.
Without Holy Baptism and the Lord's Supper, no one can be a Christian (LC W, 1). As the Ten Commandments, the Creed and the Lord's Prayer are gifts given by God, so also is Holy Baptism (LC IV, 6). "What it benefits, gives and works" is all summed up in the fact that it saves. "To be saved, we know, is nothing else than to be delivered from sin, death and the devil, and to enter the kingdom of Christ and live with Him forever" (LC IV, 23-25). 'Where God's name is, there must also be life and salvation" (LC IV, 27).


Socrates quote seems proper here 'I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only make them think'. Lutheranism is a hard pill to swallow for the old adam. The old adam's works righteousness is always ready to do something and Jesus just lays out Matthew 11:28-30 to quiet our futile attempts at being God: "28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
I had gone to a Lutheran Church that was very sacramental, seeingthe sacraments through the Scriptures. Me? I'm more of a Law/Gospel type of guy, seeing law/gospel throughout Scripture.
I know most of you have attempted at answering the OP, "Since the Sacrament is dependent on the Word, why not have just the Word?" and I appreciate that, but I happen to be more 'word oriented'.

1 Corinthians 12:12-17 BSB
The body is a unit, though it is composed of many parts. And although its parts are many, they all form one body. So it is with Christ. [13] For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free, and we were all given one Spirit to drink. [14] For the body does not consist of one part, but of many. [15] If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. [16] And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. [17] If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be?
 
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CurtUtter

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I had gone to a Lutheran Church that was very sacramental, seeingthe sacraments through the Scriptures. Me? I'm more of a Law/Gospel type of guy, seeing law/gospel throughout Scripture.
I know most of you have attempted at answering the OP, "Since the Sacrament is dependent on the Word, why not have just the Word?" and I appreciate that, but I happen to be more 'word oriented'.
Sadly, you've missed that Jesus is the Word.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Since the Sacrament is dependent on the Word, why not have just the Word?
The Sacraments are a tangible manifestation of the word. Like our Lord, the very word of God that we can see, feel, touch and taste.
 
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The Sacraments are a tangible manifestation of the word. Like our Lord, the very word of God that we can see, feel, touch and taste.
SO, IOW, the Word is the source of the sacraments and the sacraments are dependent on God's Word.

(yes, we'll sin boldly until we find Christ's righteousness as sufficient for our justification before God).
 
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Nagomirov

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Поскольку Причастие зависит от Слова, почему бы не иметь только Слово?

А может быть вам стоит почитать православное понимание Причастия, что именно оно дает? Найдите молитвы из православного молитвенника, которые читают после Причастия и обратите внимание на смысловое их содержание. Ну и поищите православные материалы о том, что дает Причастие. Это тесно связано с обожением, теозис. Вы ведь в Евхаристии становитесь причастником благодати, то что имеет Христос, в Причастии сообщается вам. Только нужно это вместить.
 
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А может быть вам стоит почитать православное понимание Причастия, что именно оно дает? Найдите молитвы из православного молитвенника, которые читают после Причастия и обратите внимание на смысловое их содержание. Ну и поищите православные материалы о том, что дает Причастие. Это тесно связано с обожением, теозис. Вы ведь в Евхаристии становитесь причастником благодати, то что имеет Христос, в Причастии сообщается вам. Только нужно это вместить.
Yes, I have noticed many Lutherans that have gone over to Eastern Orthodox, but once again I would say God's Word gives us a window into heaven, rather than Icons. No need to fit in with the Lutheran Eucharist.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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SO, IOW, the Word is the source of the sacraments and the sacraments are dependent on God's Word.

(yes, we'll sin boldly until we find Christ's righteousness as sufficient for our justification before God).
Regarding the Sacraments you are correct; from Luther's Small Catechism:

Part VI

Sacrament of the Altar

As the head of the family should teach it in a simple way to his household.
01 What is the Sacrament of the Altar?
02 Answer: It is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, under the bread and wine, for us Christians to eat and to drink, instituted by Christ Himself.
03 Where is this written?
04 Answer: The holy Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and St. Paul, write thus:
Our Lord Jesus Christ, the same night in which He was betrayed, took bread: and when He had given thanks, He brake it, and gave it to His disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is My body, which is given for you. This do in remembrance of Me.
After the same manner also He took the cup, when He had supped, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Take, drink ye all of it. This cup is the new testament in My blood, which is shed for you for the remission of sins. This do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of Me.
05 What is the benefit of such eating and drinking?
06 Answer: That is shown us in these words: Given, and shed for you, for the remission of sins; namely, that in the Sacrament forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation are given us through these words. For where there is forgiveness of sins, there is also life and salvation.
07 How can bodily eating and drinking do such great things?
08 Answer: It is not the eating and drinking, indeed, that does them, but the words which stand here, namely: Given, and shed for you, for the remission of sins. Which words are, beside the bodily eating and drinking, as the chief thing in the Sacrament; and he that believes these words has what they say and express, namely, the forgiveness of sins.
09 Who, then, receives such Sacrament worthily?
10 Answer: Fasting and bodily preparation is, indeed, a fine outward training; but he is truly worthy and well prepared who has faith in these words: Given, and shed for you, for the remission of sins.
But he that does not believe these words, or doubts, is unworthy and unfit; for the words For you require altogether believing hearts.
Regarding Luther's "sin boldly"; in context he is referring to the fact that we should not (can not) hide the fact that we sin; we must recognize that sin so that we can repent more boldly than we are sinning. Sanctification is a life long process; not something that happens in an instant. While Jesus Christ's sacrifice make us pure in God's sight, we are anything but pure.
 
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