Sabbath?

[from scratch]

I think a general frustration I personally have with not only you, but several other Christians, is the basis of the arguments we have. You are Christian, and I am Christian. As such, I expect us to discuss and reason the word of God, not argue about it. And, especially when there is no ambiguity in the Word of God concerning the argument, it becomes ridiculously trite and antagonizing. On this thread, we are arguing with a brother (or sister) in Christ about HIS WORD that is CLEARLY WRITTEN. Moreover, the embodiment of the word of God said with His OWN MOUTH:



Likewise, GOD HIMSELF DIVINELY GAVE the Law to Moses on Sinai: The first FOUR (a spiritual number) are:


The other SIX (a number of [hu]man) commandments are moral commandments for MAN. When Yahoshuah is asked about what commandment OF THE LAW to follow,

"Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

Yahoshuah is not throwing away laws, He made the statement because it is PITHY. The first FOUR laws are spiritual LAWS describe what it means to love God with all of your heart. The next SIX describe what it means to love man/neighbor with all of your heart.


Part of that law is the FOURTH COMMANDMENT, a BOOKEND of the spiritual LAWS: The FOURTH COMMANDMENT is the SABBATH.


The sabbath is not a law that you can say "oh it was too hard to follow," or "I didn't have the resources/capacity to do so" like one may be able to argue with justice laws and other laws. The Sabbath is one of the most important laws, and one of the easiest to follow.


Follow the Sabbath: its the LAW.

So you argue for Moses and the law. I don't recall that being called Christian. The word Christian comes from behaving like Christ which was radically different than behaving like a Jew. Chistian is a derogatory word used by the Jews of the 1st Century. We are enjoined by Paul to not use our liberty to induldge the flesh and throw out the law. No this is not an excuse to be wicked and live a lifestyle of sin(ning). See Gal 5 and espceially verses 16-24.

The law aka 10 commandments you promote that a Christian is obligated to is referred to in Jer 31:31-34 in verse 32 specifically. It is also identified in Deut 4:13 and 5:2-5 as the covenant Jeremiah is talking about. He clearly says it will be rescinded and the new one will not be like the old one. This does awya with the renewed covenant concept. Hosea 2:11 clearly says God will cause the Sabbath to cease (KJV) - terminate (Tanak, Stone ed). Remember the woman at the well? Place of worship will not be a factor. Jesus changed religous observance at what we call the last supper and stated that we have a new (kainos) covenant.

You are clearly promoting Judaism and not Christianity.

 

[from scratch]

Romans 10:4 (KJV)
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

We arer no longer obligated to the Sabbath or any other parts of the law.

 

[ThomasDa]

Jesus made His attitude toward God’s Law plain in the “Sermon on the Mount.”
Jesus made three emphatic declarations about The Law.

1.) In Mat. 5:17 Jesus said “Do not (even) think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. The word “fulfill” in this verse means
“to make full, to fill, to fill up, to fill to the full, or to render full i.e. to complete” (Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, 2002. Strong’s # 4137)

2.) In Mat. 5:18 Jesus said “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.” The word “fulfilled” in this verse means “to become, to come into existence, or to come to pass” Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Strong’s #1096.

3.) In Mat. 5:19 Jesus said “Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, (and you all know who you are) shall be called least (by those) in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

In Gal. 5:19-21 We read 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Jesus came to teach the full intent of The Law, the spirit of The Law. After saying that our righteousness must exceed the righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees to inter the Kingdom in Mat. 5:20-22 He began to teach that just not committing murder was not good enough. Jesus taught that even hating was the same thing. Then in verses 27-28 He teaches the same thing about adultery and lust. In doing this Jesus was fulfilling a prophecy in Isa. 42:21 where He was prophesied to “exalt” or “magnify” The Law and make it honorable.

Jesus was giving us the true intent of the law, not what the teachers of His day had distorted it into. By the way the teachers of today still do the same thing.

This in no way means that we can earn salvation. We can’t do anything in our short, pathetic, weak, lives to earn salvation. We have nothing in this life that is worth eternal life.
Only God’s grace and mercy can cause Him to give us eternal life. But God has made it more that plain that He will not give eternal life to anyone He can not trust or rule.

Exactly right. The fact that Jesus came to expand the understanding of God's law, not to destroy it eludes so many.

 

[from scratch]

Christ, the ALPHA AND OMEGA, is the END of the Law, not the DESTROYER of the LAW.

Are you completely ignoring Matthew 5:16-20: He says very clearly that He did not come to destroy the law or the prophets, but to fulfill it. Hence, Christ is the END OF THE LAW, THE [ALPHA AND]OMEGA. It is FINISH. He has done what He set out to do.

We never said that Jesus was out to destroy the law. We clearly agree and promote that Jesus came to fulfill the law, that is toi complete the contract. A completed contract has no other value than historical. A completed contract has no more jusrisdiction.

Luke 24:44 clarifies exactly what must be fulfilled and Jesus stated that He accomplished that task. The prophecies that had to be fulfilled were those concerning Him.

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning Me.

Why you choose to continue to overlook or deny this is amazing.

 

[from scratch]

Most definitely it is finished, but the law is not null.

(17)Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.



(18)For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


(19)Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

(20)For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 5:17-20

​

Jesus finished/completed the contract. The covenant is gone - finished. You can not have an old contract and a new contract in effect at the same time concerning the same issue. And your fot of anger will not help you. Babies throw tantrums and I know some adults continue in that childish behavior.

 

[from scratch]

So, are you telling me that although Yahoshuah said in Matthew 5:17-18:


and although God, the Most High Himself, spoke with His mouth to his servant Moses in Exodus 20:8:

you believe that humans do not have to follow the Sabbath because the law was nailed to the cross? Who is Yahoshuah? What is the Law: is it the Word of God, or the words of Men? Who was nailed to the cross?


Also, where does it say the LAW WAS NAILED TO THE CROSS in Col 2:14?


Are you saying that what Yahoshuah and The Almighty have spoken with their lips, you believe otherwise, because of what another man wrote (and may not even mean)?

Are you saying that because Yahoshuah fulfilled the law, that means we don't have to follow it?

Do you think humans have the authority to choose what law of the Almighty to follow, despite their imperfections?



These are not rhetorical questions. To me, you sound like you are picking and choosing what to follow, and you are aware of it. So I want clarification.

Just because we cannot execute the law perfectly does not mean we should not follow it, or choose what to follow. If a nation had that mentality, there would be a lot of criminals running around arguing that something that is wrong before is right now.


Yahoshuah fulfilled the law because He is the Word of God. He fulfilled all the words given by God, as well as the inspiration of the word/holy spirit, by becoming human and perfectly executing the Law. He literally vindicated His own perfection. But, life continues by His grace and sacrifice. Therefore, was everyone that came after Yahoshuah supposed to NOT do exactly what He did, or at least strive to do so?

Bearing our cross means a lot of things, but one meaning is to follow Christ and take the consequential affliction (spiritual or physical.)

Yahoshuah followed the Law - repeat - Yahoshuah followed the LAW to perfection. Therefore, the consequence was being nailed to a cross and taking the affliction (physically AND spiritually.) We have to [strive to] follow the LAW perfectly if we want to have the honor of calling ourselves Children of God, and Followers of Christ and images of the Most High. How can you follow Christ if you philosophically/consciously choose not to follow the parts or all of the LAW?

You don't seem to accept the overwhelming evidence that we are not subject to the law, even with direct statements to that effect.

 

[from scratch]

Exactly right. The fact that Jesus came to expand the understanding of God's law, not to destroy it eludes so many.

What scripture do you get this idea from? I can't even get this idea from if I examine the words used in Mat 5:17.

 

[from scratch]

That is exactly the point. It is exactly what Hebrews says. For those who doesn't know grace was not something which came into play in the New Testament but it was there since the Old Testament. As hebrews says, it was never possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. It means that grace was always there. So for the guy who says that I am under grace which is the new covenant please read the book of Hebrews. For the same guy who also thinks that the Old covenant is the Old Testament you need to go back to the drawing board. I guess people use any excuse to disobey God's law.

Where is grace a function of the law?

The word testament and covenant are the same thing and are used interchangably.

 

[RibI]

The carnal mind is hostle toward and can't understand or subject itself to God's ways.

 

[visionary]

What scripture do you get this idea from? I can't even get this idea from if I examine the words used in Mat 5:17.

Yeshua wasn't the only one expounding using scripture...
Acts 28:23
And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

Just like Yeshua..

Luke 24:27
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

 

[nathanlandon1]

You don't seem to accept the overwhelming evidence that we are not subject to the law, even with direct statements to that effect.

I am going to reply to this one, since this is the overall philosophy you have for me and other people promoting Christ and His Word.

You say that I ignore overwhelming evidence that we are not subject to the law, and under the New Covenant. You don't even understand what that means. It means that the LAW is no longer the thing that condemns you to Hell - only the the lack of belief in Yahoshuah and love for Him can condemn you to Hell now. It does NOT mean you stop following the law, it just means that if you do not follow [parts of] the Law, and you are repentant, you have forgiveness and you are like a new creature. THAT IS THE NEW COVANANT. You are too busy defending Paul and the "New Covenant" - which you say omits one of God's laws from existence and applicability - that you don't even know what the New Covenant is.

You call it promoting Judaism and not Christianity, yet YOU are the one that has removed the 4th commandment from your heart and the word of God. You accuse me of promoting Moses because I believe in what God says TO Moses in the books of Moses. In reality, you have no idea of anything because you approach this discussion as an attack on Paul - because you misunderstand him too.

YOU need to pray for your soul because you are able to completely ignore the words of God and Yahoshuah, as quoted several times on this forum, and say that what Paul has said should be put before what God has said. Yahoshuah said in Matthew that NOTHING passes from the law until ALL is fulfilled. What part of that do you NOT understand?


YOU have ignored the overwhelming evidence that we are to follow ALL of the law, even with direct statements to that effect from the Word of God and God himself.


You truly need prayer, truly and quickly.

 

[Frogster]

No, you can either answer my questions, NOT answer my questions AND say that, or we can part ways.

I do not enjoy arguing SCRIPTURE with CHRISTIANS, especially when the issue is CLEARLY STATED IN THE BIBLE.



Please, answer my questions, or tell me you do not want to answer them. But, if you respond again without even referencing the questions I asked you, these will be the last words I say to you.

Why did paul compare the paganistic life of the preconversion Galatians, to his own in Judism?

3 In the same way we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world.


9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?

Why did he use the Abrahmic cov, to ward off the Mosaic cov?

Dude, gentiles are in Abraham, as well as jews who believe, that means not by law, or the promise is void..

VOID!


14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void.

 

[Frogster]

I am going to reply to this one, since this is the overall philosophy you have for me and other people promoting Christ and His Word.

You say that I ignore overwhelming evidence that we are not subject to the law, and under the New Covenant. You don't even understand what that means. It means that the LAW is no longer the thing that condemns you to Hell - only the the lack of belief in Yahoshuah and love for Him can condemn you to Hell now. It does NOT mean you stop following the law, it just means that if you do not follow [parts of] the Law, and you are repentant, you have forgiveness and you are like a new creature. THAT IS THE NEW COVANANT. You are too busy defending Paul and the "New Covenant" - which you say omits one of God's laws from existence and applicability - that you don't even know what the New Covenant is.

You call it promoting Judaism and not Christianity, yet YOU are the one that has removed the 4th commandment from your heart and the word of God. You accuse me of promoting Moses because I believe in what God says TO Moses in the books of Moses. In reality, you have no idea of anything because you approach this discussion as an attack on Paul - because you misunderstand him too.

YOU need to pray for your soul because you are able to completely ignore the words of God and Yahoshuah, as quoted several times on this forum, and say that what Paul has said should be put before what God has said. Yahoshuah said in Matthew that NOTHING passes from the law until ALL is fulfilled. What part of that do you NOT understand?


YOU have ignored the overwhelming evidence that we are to follow ALL of the law, even with direct statements to that effect from the Word of God and God himself.


You truly need prayer, truly and quickly.

Lets not get personal with the "you need prayer" kind of thing!

 

[nathanlandon1]

Why did paul compare the paganistic life of the preconversion Galatians, to his own in Judism?

3 In the same way we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world.


9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?

Why did he use the Abrahmic cov, to ward off the Mosaic cov?

Dude, gentiles are in Abraham, as well as jews who believe, that means not by law, or the promise is void..

VOID!


14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void.

You need to give me some tangible sources (and it needs to be from the Word of God): where are you quoting from?

But, before you do that, you need to answer these questions if you expect a response from me. If you do not answer and/or you don't let me know anything (for example, talking about something remote), then don't expect attention. The questions in bold are the only answers that I am asking for:

Do you believe that although Yahoshuah said in Matthew 5:17-18:

(17)Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

(18)For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
​

and although God, the Most High Himself, spoke with His mouth to his servant Moses in Exodus 20:8:

(8)Remember the sabbath day, and keep it holy.
​

you believe that humans do not have to follow the Sabbath because the law was nailed to the cross, or because Paul said that we are not under the law, or [insert reason here]?

Who is Yahoshuah? What is the Law: is it the Word of God, or the words of Men? Who was nailed to the cross?


Where does it say the "LAW WAS NAILED TO THE CROSS?"


Do you believe what Yahoshuah and The Almighty have spoken with their lips, or do you believe otherwise, because of what another man wrote (and may not even mean)?

Do you believe that because Yahoshuah fulfilled the law, that means we don't have to follow it?

Do you believe humans have the authority to choose what law of the Almighty to follow, despite their imperfections?

Thanks in advanced.

 

[Frogster]

The let "no ones" speak volumes. If we do not apply the let no ones evenly, then we are left to think we should worship angels. If the let no one is not for sabbath, then the let no ones are not stopping angel worship!

4 I say this in order that no one may delude you with plausible arguments.


8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ

16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance
belongs to Christ.


18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind,

 

[Frogster]

You need to give me some tangible sources (and it needs to be from the Word of God): where are you quoting from?

But, before you do that, you need to answer these questions if you expect a response from me. If you do not answer and/or you don't let me know anything (for example, talking about something remote), then don't expect attention. The questions in bold are the only answers that I am asking for:




Thanks in advanced.

i did, he said he was not getting rid of the OT, the bible of their day, and i posted where he said he fulfilled it in luke 24.

Ok, now why did he call his previous life,under the same system of the pagans, in gal 4:3 and 9?

 

[nathanlandon1]

So you argue for Moses and the law. I don't recall that being called Christian. The word Christian comes from behaving like Christ which was radically different than behaving like a Jew. Chistian is a derogatory word used by the Jews of the 1st Century. We are enjoined by Paul to not use our liberty to induldge the flesh and throw out the law. No this is not an excuse to be wicked and live a lifestyle of sin(ning). See Gal 5 and espceially verses 16-24.

The law aka 10 commandments you promote that a Christian is obligated to is referred to in Jer 31:31-34 in verse 32 specifically. It is also identified in Deut 4:13 and 5:2-5 as the covenant Jeremiah is talking about. He clearly says it will be rescinded and the new one will not be like the old one. This does awya with the renewed covenant concept. Hosea 2:11 clearly says God will cause the Sabbath to cease (KJV) - terminate (Tanak, Stone ed). Remember the woman at the well? Place of worship will not be a factor. Jesus changed religous observance at what we call the last supper and stated that we have a new (kainos) covenant.

You are clearly promoting Judaism and not Christianity.

Jesus finished/completed the contract. The covenant is gone - finished. You can not have an old contract and a new contract in effect at the same time concerning the same issue. And your fot of anger will not help you. Babies throw tantrums and I know some adults continue in that childish behavior.

Lets not get personal with the "you need prayer" kind of thing!

And, I am getting personal for saying he needs prayer, when it is a fact? I am childish because I have to defend my Father against a Christian?



Frogster, don't even bother about the questions and evidence. The same thing I said to "from scratch" goes to you.

I honestly hope you find peace, and you honestly do need prayer.

 

[from scratch]

I am going to reply to this one, since this is the overall philosophy you have for me and other people promoting Christ and His Word.

You say that I ignore overwhelming evidence that we are not subject to the law, and under the New Covenant. You don't even understand what that means. It means that the LAW is no longer the thing that condemns you to Hell - only the the lack of belief in Yahoshuah and love for Him can condemn you to Hell now. It does NOT mean you stop following the law, it just means that if you do not follow [parts of] the Law, and you are repentant, you have forgiveness and you are like a new creature. THAT IS THE NEW COVANANT. You are too busy defending Paul and the "New Covenant" - which you say omits one of God's laws from existence and applicability - that you don't even know what the New Covenant is.

Well you are partially correct. The law does not condemn me. My righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and pharisees. Does yours? What value is the law since it no longer can condemn anyone? How does one get to pick and choose which parts of the law they wish to follow? James 2:10 says if one messes up one part of the law they mess up the whole law. I guess you just throw it out.

I am not defending Paul. I do quote Paul. I am defending the NC of grace which is apposed to the law. Just a minor difference with a huge outcome.

You call it promoting Judaism and not Christianity, yet YOU are the one that has removed the 4th commandment from your heart and the word of God. You accuse me of promoting Moses because I believe in what God says TO Moses in the books of Moses. In reality, you have no idea of anything because you approach this discussion as an attack on Paul - because you misunderstand him too.

I did not remove any of the law. Jesus did. Since the issue is the 4th where is it renewed in the NC/NT?
Why doesn't the NT come down on the people for not observing the Sabbath? BTW I believe what it says in the books of Moses, too. I also believe what I read in Jeremiah and the Gospels. Even the modern poluted texts we have today agree with the older one on this subject.

YOU need to pray for your soul because you are able to completely ignore the words of God and Yahoshuah, as quoted several times on this forum, and say that what Paul has said should be put before what God has said. Yahoshuah said in Matthew that NOTHING passes from the law until ALL is fulfilled. What part of that do you NOT understand?

I understand the concern you seem to express here. For me it comes across as amanipulative ploy.

YOU have ignored the overwhelming evidence that we are to follow ALL of the law, even with direct statements to that effect from the Word of God and God himself.

I what? I have argued for the truth as I see it. My definitions are backed up by the bible. You seem to argue against that and simply dismiss the remainder or simply do not reply which is the same as dismissal.


You truly need prayer, truly and quickly.[/quote]I will take all I can get. And I think your statement applies to you.

 

[Frogster]

And, I am getting personal for saying he needs prayer, when it is a fact? I am childish because I have to defend my Father against a Christian?



Frogster, don't even bother about the questions and evidence. The same thing I said to "from scratch" goes to you.

I honestly hope you find peace, and you honestly do need prayer.

what about the post!?
Why did Paul compare his judaisitc existence, to that of the pagans?

 

[from scratch]

You need to give me some tangible sources (and it needs to be from the Word of God): where are you quoting from?

But, before you do that, you need to answer these questions if you expect a response from me. If you do not answer and/or you don't let me know anything (for example, talking about something remote), then don't expect attention. The questions in bold are the only answers that I am asking for:

Thanks in advanced.

First since you are promoting yourself as an authority you should know where Frogster is quoting from. You don't even know enough to find the quote for yourself.

Secondly these questions have been answered several times in this thread. So is the issue a control isuue or you can't remember? Be honest here. This is an observation statement/question.