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Excuse me, but Paul did not predate Moses, Moses did.
Gen 15:6 And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness
Confirmed by Peter, all nations..
Acts 3:25 You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, And in your offspring shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
So really, you can choose to omit the man righteous before corcumcision, but Moses wrote Gen, so it sounds like you are selecting text.
This is all law, show me what this has to do with the Abrahmic cov, and I will eat a living frog.
Give me one verse please. Paul predated Moses, and said we are in that cov, not the one that came 430 years later. Gal 3;17.
Thus you have discredited every single word in the Bible. Not one word of it was written by God, including the gospels which quote or supposedly quote Jesus. How do you know that one is more creditable than the other. You would have no knowledge of the the Ten commandments if Moses had not written them in the Torah. Moses did not see by his personal testimony Who he talked with. How do you know he is not lying? Cause somebody said so? This makesthe Bible no different than Islamic, Mormon, Christian Scientist, Jehovah Witnesses scriptures then."For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matt 5:18
Like I said before, I have no problem disobeying Paul, or even Moses, in order to obey my Father's Word. The above quote is from the mouth of Yahoshuah, the Word of God. Galations 3:17 is from Paul, a man. And, though prophets get their inspiration from God, the man called Yahoshuah the Christ is perfect is wisdom, so I will go with Him.
So you believe a murderer?Andhow do you know you are on God's side?Moses killed a man and showed pride even when he was a prophet of God. Paul killed Christians and collected taxes. These people, though great men, are human, and susceptible to the same temptations as all men. The Holy Spirit can move on their spirits to cause them to do whatever according to His will. However, they are still men. If I see a contradiction with God's Word, then I am siding with God.
I really would like to express my thoughts here, however I am restrained by the onesided enforcement of the rules. Let me say that although there is much OT quoted in the NT it is not a regurgitation of the OT.The bible is compiled in a destructive way: separating the books into two different sections provides this avenue for Christians and Hebrews to separate themselves when they are two sides of the same coin. Nothing has changed; Yahoshuah did what He did so that we could be restored. But, we were not expected to stop following His Words, and make a paradigm shift to exclusively following the words of the disciples. (Ironically, much of the "new-testament" is like "Torah 101/Cliff Notes." The disciples had two different audiences to preach to: Hebrew sinners that grew up with a culture of the Torah and the book of the Prophets, and gentiles that don't know a Torah from a table. Therefore, the "New Testament" by default is a sort of regurgitation of the old testament, with "cultural lubricant" to package it in an acceptable/understandable way to mostly the gentiles who reject it. Paul spoke in several Greek idioms and colloquialisms. The only real new piece of information in the bible is the Gospels. Even the events in The Apocalypse (Revelation) were prophesied by Daniel and many other prophets of the Old Testament.
Abraham can predate Moses though Yes Paul was well educated in the OT Scriptures and understood them better than his peers. What Paul preached he got directly from Jesus according to his personal testimony. I am sure that you or some one you know is in a position to contradict personal testimony.Paul, therefore, cannot predate Moses because the Law of which Christ spoke of in Matt 5:18 contains the 5 Books of MOSES, who lived in the post-antediluvian world. Even Paul's wisdom comes from the Law and the Book of the Prophets - also more colloquially know as the Old Testament.
Thus you have discredited every single word in the Bible. Not one word of it was written by God, including the gospels which quote or supposedly quote Jesus. How do you know that one is more creditable than the other. You would have no knowledge of the the Ten commandments if Moses had not written them in the Torah. Moses did not see by his personal testimony Who he talked with. How do you know he is not lying? Cause somebody said so? This makesthe Bible no different than Islamic, Mormon, Christian Scientist, Jehovah Witnesses scriptures then. So you believe a murderer?Andhow do you know you are on God's side?I really would like to express my thoughts here, however I am restrained by the onesided enforcement of the rules. Let me say that although there is much OT quoted in the NT it is not a regurgitation of the OT.Abraham can predate Moses though Yes Paul was well educated in the OT Scriptures and understood them better than his peers. What Paul preached he got directly from Jesus according to his personal testimony. I am sure that you or some one you know is in a position to contradict personal testimony.
Technically I wish to know how you determined Matthew really quoted Jesus?I also want to know how (if) you know Paul is wrong (if) he is. I think it is strictly something one believes by faith. Some here say Paul is wrong, yet a disciple of Jesus places Paul's writings on par with Scripture II Pet 3:16. Yes I know and understant that II Tim3:16 is written by Paul. It does seem to be endorsed by Peter.I didn't read the whole thread, but I found this post and I PROPHECYKID is 100% accurate. I will give my $0.02, then I will present some evidence in support of the sabbath, and the requirement of its participation.
The problem many of us (Christians) have is that we tend to not differentiate between what has authority first: God's word, or man's. The answer is God's word: if one disobeys a man like Paul or Matthew especially in order to obey his/her Father in Heaven, then s/he should be perfectly comfortable with that. Yet, God Himself, with His Word, commands His children to do these things forever, even Yahoshuah.
"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:18
Technically (I believe) when we were perfect we had the full law inside of us, and we executed it perfectly. God didn't need to tell us anything because we were already perfect. With the fall of man, God had to remind and teach us what to and what not to do. This is why the commandments were given AFTER Egypt because everything God commanded against the Egyptians did in mass.
And He (Jesus) did exactly that. Read the gospels. John 8:1-11, Mat 26:26-29, MK 14:22-25, LK 22:19, 20, I Cor 11:23-26 immediately come to mind.Now, considering Yahoshuah the Christ is the Wisdom/Word of God, and we know He was with God from the beginning (John 1:1,) and that Christ can resurrect (i.e. will not die,) then we must accept that we must obey every commandment given by God. The only person with the authority to change the law is God.
And so is Jesus as has been discussed in another thread as referenced in Mat 15:10-20.Some may bring up Paul and his notes on the food laws, or perhaps the justice laws, or even sacrifices as a counter argument to "following all of the law." Here is the deal: either Paul is trying to say something else when he says all food is good with thanksgiving (1 Timothy 4:4), or he is going against a direct commandment from God. God never changed health laws and He really didn't change the justice Laws, which were given because of the atrocities going on in Egypt (spiritually and physically.) The purpose of the "put to death" laws were to send the creatures to the Father immediately, instead of their sin evolving into another Egypt. Now that Yahoshuah has sacrificed Himself, (and also because Israel is scattared,) these "put to death" laws are executed by Him. These laws were laws that God gave Israel as a nation and as a people, and He would be our King. And, sacrifices were never mandatory, but it is something you should do innately for a King - or someone you love. You should give something important to you to someone you love - whether it be a bull or time. It shows appreciation.
Then you have not read Jer 31:31-34 or Hosea 2:11. Mal 3:6 is in reference to God's character not His administration. Isa 28:10. If one reads the Bible one will see a morph or progression of change."And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying, 'Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, [even] of the herd, and of the flock...'" Leviticus 1:1-2
If you don't have cattle He lists in the second chapter the options you have for offerings. Flour and oil are a couple of options.
To sum, if God said it and He has not changed it in any way, then we are to this day and forever supposed to follow His commands. Even if it is impossible to follow all of His commands right now, we know that Yahoshuah received His crown by following every single commandment set by God, innocently paying for our sins He didn't commit by death, and consequently (because of His blamelessness) resurrected back to life. Therefore, we must do it too if we want to even be considered to receive a crown of life. When we fail to obey a commandment we have to acknowledge that and strive to obey it, knowing Christ will strengthen us. Following the sabbath is an ancient spiritual law (the 4th commandment) that connects man with God. It is meant for us: a reminder that as images of God we are entitled to one day of rest just like our Father.
And who speciffically and exclusively were these words spoken to?God said in Exodus
"And God spake all these words, saying
(1)I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. (2)Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. (3)Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
(4)Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." Exodus 20:1-11
The importance of this 4th commandment is much more than most people may realize. Egypt in exodus times was similar to a modern country today. There was debauchery, slaves (people with debt) were abused and beaten, and no one worshiped the one True God - they focused on the many false ones that they idolized. But here is the kicker: before the Law was officially given, the sabbath was already practiced. In fact, on the fifteenth day of the second month (Exodus 16:1) when Moses and his lot were wandering, God rained manna down for them to eat. Moses then told them
"And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein. And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field. Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none. And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none. And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws? Exodus 16:23-28
When Yahoshuah and his disciples were getting food to survive their journey on the sabbath, the pharisees tempted Him with a law question concerning the sabbath.
First who was Jesus talking to? Second a Christian is not limited to a Hewbrew. In fact there is no Jew nor Gentile in Christ Jesus -Gal 3:28. Gentiles do not become a Jew (Hebrew) or spiritual Israel (Jew/Hebrew)either."And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn. And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful? And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him? How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him? And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath." Mark 2:23-29
This illustrates the importance of the sabbath. It is not a day of bondage where you are so bogged down on "traditional laws of men" that you can't even get something to eat! The sabbath is a holy day of reflection and connection with the Father. It is a day of rest.
This also illustrates that Yahoshuah, and even the people of that time, did not expect the Sabbath to be done away with or changed. If Yahoshuah wanted people to change or discontinue the sabbath He would have told us. The seventh day of the week has been and always will be the sabbath. If you are gentile but want to be a Christian (which is an Hebrew that follows and believes Christ,) you must also follow the law AND believe on Christ. This is because Christ Himself followed the whole law and executed it perfectly. If you believe in Him and what He stands for, you have to walk the same line as Him. Perfect execution of this law by us is impossible right now, but it is still expected and demanded from our Father. The only thing that keeps us from death is what Yahoshuah did for us. Follow the sabbath (Friday night at sundown to Saturday night at sundown): it really helps. Also, follow His other 7 High Sabbaths:
I do not know if this is the best place to ask about the Sabbath here but the better places to ask about it is in the Denomination-Specific forum, General Theology or the traditional Adventist forum.
But let me try to give an answer in short. Jesus didn't come to free us from keeping the commandments, he came to save us from the penalty of sin. As this grace is not made available, it is not an excuse to sin. In fact God forbids that we sin because of his abounding grace. My advice to you would be to obey as much as you can the commandments of God because that is what Jesus did when he was on earth. He loved God and kept his commandments and if you love God you should keep his commandments too.
I agree with you very much in this fact that others read these comments. You should consider what you wrote. Does not your argument apply equally across the board? What is good for Paul, Peter, James should also apply to Moses, Elijah, Jeremiah, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Don't ya think. I have always been told what is good for the goose is good for the gander.You twist my words to discredit me and prove your own words right. I will not argue with you, nor will I engage in this. Keep in mind guests and other members look at what you do and see you for what you are, whatever that may be.
Peace.
I was the one saying it did not exclude gentiles.
Bottom line here, all are offspring in Abraham, it was before the law, that is a fact, and Sabbath and law were 430 years later.
How did I miss quote Paul?
Show me?
I am saying all the Judaism, nationalism, and law, are not about Abraham.
I asked for one verse, but did not get it, i got verses, but they do not disprove the Abrahmic cov, 430 years before thr law, for all.
Gal 3:28.28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave [7] nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
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Of course...for those of us who are born Gentiles...the Law never applied anyway...
You twist my words to discredit me and prove your own words right. I will not argue with you, nor will I engage in this. Keep in mind guests and other members look at what you do and see you for what you are, whatever that may be.
Peace.
I asked you to idenify this covenant: Jer 31:31-34 and Mat 26:28 also recorded by Mark and Luke.For some reason you think that what I am saying excludes gentiles when I never said any of the sort I am a gentile born from above through Yahshua. And the way that you are misquoting Paul is by using sound bites (which you apparently would like me to use as well). There are no two covenants that is something Paul made up. There is a covenant and a renewal of that covenant. The Sabbath was there sense the first and second chapter of Genesis.
The way that I understand it and I don't claim to be perfect in understanding until it is written on my heart and mind. The plan of redemption never changed it has always been the same. The Jewish people were chosen by YHWH to be the ones who would show the world through their lives and conduct God's plan of redemption to act and reenact for all time God's plan. To be the witnesses of YHWH. To act God's play of redemption. Showing everyone through symbolism and metaphor how to be able to chose God. How YHWH was providing the way of salvation. So it was not a burden it was an honor. Once accepted God showed them what would happen if they followed and what would happen if they rejected it. Temporarily they have rejected that task (Matt 22:1-14) so YHWH is looking for someone to fill in the gap of being the representatives of God's plan but those representatives can't come in which ever way they want they need to come to do the task the way YHWH wants it done. Unfortunately that is not the Christians as a whole it is mainly the set apart assembly of Philadelphia mentioned by Yahshua in Revelations. And scripture backs this up as a whole not one snippet here and another there. If people were willing to see the metaphors represented in the Torah the Prophets and the Psalms and realize that each law had a metaphor behind it they would not make the same mistake that the Jewish people made. They forgot the spirit and love behind the Torah and made it into a whole religion bound by rules and regulations forgetting the covenant YHWH had made with them adding and confusing it with paganism , and the majority of christians have ignored it in the opposite way by not looking at it at all and making it into a religion and adding paganism. It is sad because now with 20-20 hindsight their is so much more to see, so much more meaning. So if people would change their perspective and realize that everyone is saved by YHWH unmerited favor not by following the letter of the Law (David was YHWH beloved not because he followed the Law perfectly, (he was during this period that Paul apparently calls the Mosaic Law) but because of his heart for YHWH and he was redeemed the same way all are through Yahshua, not by killing thousand of lambs a year. And that if one man mainly Paul if he was actually saying what people here are interpreting from his writings (which I have read and reread) was contradicting YHWH then your choice is to follow Paul's Jesus and his religion or YHWH's perfect plan or redemption represented in hundreds of ways in the Torah, Prophets and Psalms through those entrusted with the task. The beautiful pictures of the Sabbath, Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, Seven Sevens, Trumpets, Reconciliations, and Shelters. YHWH's feast that Paul apparently discarded.
4 These are the appointed feasts of the YHWH, the holy convocations, which you shall proclaim at the time appointed for them. 5 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight, is YHWH's Passover.
The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Le 23:45). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.
14 And you shall eat neither bread nor grain parched or fresh until this same day, until you have brought the offering of your God: it is a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Le 23:14). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.
And who are Yahudim (those related to Yah) today? I know I want to be know as one who is related to YHWH. So if that makes me a Jew wannabe then I am guilty. But don't confuse rabbinical Judaism and Messianic Judaism with Yahudim those that are related and are mainly identified with the set apart assembly of brotherly love.
I asked you to idenify this covenant: Jer 31:31-34 and Mat 26:28 also recorded by Mark and Luke.
This is why I did not want to engage before. Because it does not matter what is said it goes nowhere.
How many of the 600 + in the OT are we bound to keep? How do we decide which one's we don't need?I do not know if this is the best place to ask about the Sabbath here but the better places to ask about it is in the Denomination-Specific forum, General Theology or the traditional Adventist forum.
But let me try to give an answer in short. Jesus didn't come to free us from keeping the commandments, he came to save us from the penalty of sin. As this grace is not made available, it is not an excuse to sin. In fact God forbids that we sin because of his abounding grace. My advice to you would be to obey as much as you can the commandments of God because that is what Jesus did when he was on earth. He loved God and kept his commandments and if you love God you should keep his commandments too.
How many of the 600 + in the OT are we bound to keep? How do we decide which one's we don't need?
Here's a question for you all. Must we keep the 600 + OT commands to be saved? If you say no, then what are some of you squawking about?
His "moral law"? What would that be? What parts of God's Law could be immoral?But in the New Covenant God wants to place his moral law in our hearts.
So, what about the rest of the 600 +?It is one sided to think about what we must do to be saved. The other side to consider, is what we must do because of the fact that Jesus has saved us. After Jesus died to save me for my sins would I have other God's or make graven images? Would I take his name in vain? Because of my gratitude and love for God I will do what pleases him. It is a shame that some people believe that God actually is unhappy when we try to keep his commandments. God's commandments are holy, just and good and the man operating by the flesh would not be subject to his law and cannot please him.
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