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Padraigin

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Hello,

I am an adventist because of certian beliefs. I however, go to other churches that I am led. I have a disability, so somtimes it is hard to attend services on Sabbath. I try to listen online to Doug Batchlor or Mark Finley. However, I do believe that we have an idea of who the anti-christ is, but I do not believe it is a good idea to pin it on the pope. If so, we do not know which pope it would be. Some of the literature is outdated and needs to be updated. I love the Adventist for many other reasons. I really have to say I consider myself a christian of no denomonation, especially non-denominational, as with out passing judgement on all ppl from this type of church, they can get off the wall with telling you how you don't have enough faith, your possessed with demons etc. Yes, I do believe that you can be possessed, however they make it seems that you are sick etc.. as your own faithless fault. Not True. I have been blessed in my congrgation they are really not like that.

P-:crossrc:
 

Haggai

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Does not matter which Pope, it's the system, not individual people.
Literature about God is never outdated. God does not change, He does not update or come out with new versions of Himself. He is consistant and constant and will always stay the same. The Bible was written thousands of years ago but still applies to us today.
 
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repentandbelieve

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Padraigin said:
Hello,

I am an adventist because of certian beliefs. I however, go to other churches that I am led. I have a disability, so somtimes it is hard to attend services on Sabbath. I try to listen online to Doug Batchlor or Mark Finley. However, I do believe that we have an idea of who the anti-christ is, but I do not believe it is a good idea to pin it on the pope. If so, we do not know which pope it would be. Some of the literature is outdated and needs to be updated. I love the Adventist for many other reasons. I really have to say I consider myself a christian of no denomonation, especially non-denominational, as with out passing judgement on all ppl from this type of church, they can get off the wall with telling you how you don't have enough faith, your possessed with demons etc. Yes, I do believe that you can be possessed, however they make it seems that you are sick etc.. as your own faithless fault. Not True. I have been blessed in my congrgation they are really not like that.

P-:crossrc:
Hello Padraigin. I don't think that the term anti christ should necessarily be confined to any one particulsr person.. According to the word there are many anti christ. Antichrist, meaning anyone who is against the will and work of God. The reason I say this is because 1 John 2:18 reads "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."

And I could never understand why believers feel the need to take on any name other than that of their Master r? Why not simply call themslves Christians?

Basically I love the way the Adventist present the Gospel. But IMO the deeper they go into their doctrine the more they depart from the simplicity of the Gospel.

Concerning the Sabbath, I recognize that saturday is the Sabbath day but I have many questions in regards to how one should observe it.
 
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Padraigin

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Haggai said:
Does not matter which Pope, it's the system, not individual people.
Literature about God is never outdated. God does not change, He does not update or come out with new versions of Himself. He is consistant and constant and will always stay the same. The Bible was written thousands of years ago but still applies to us today.

We do not know who the Beast is. It points to the fact that the pope sits on the seven hills in Rome, but it is not our place to speculate on who it will be. Nor, as an Adventist would I like ppl telling me that my church is a cult. It is definitly a religious/political person, but as the future draws nigh it can be another religion.:angel: God Bless.
 
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nahMish

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hi !
recently we have had a few young people in our church wanting to be baptised ONLY into christ rather than joining the church as well.
Yes, i can see their point of view- but its just that with faith...you need somewhere to 'plant your roots' so to speak so that you can grow...In my experience, going from church to church makes it harder to maintain those ties, makes it harder for accountability, mentoring, maturing, acceptance etc.. and others making sure that you are doing 'okay' spiritually because you are in close connection.. as a young person, the last two years ive spent going from sda church etc..(sure, ive had a good social life) but in terms of my growth it has been minimal because ive basically gone & done whatever. Jesus didnt do his ministry soley on his own..he sought out trusted friends and although he travelled around, he still had his feet planted on the ground..

but thats my experience, i just feel that for me...its better to put your energy into the one place. although you only get to heaven through one person JESUS, you still need a place to plant your roots, a place where others are of the same belief as you....
God Bless !
 
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BonnieBee

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Yesterday, I heard an interesting sermon on how some people want to be saved, but only so they can go to heaven. They don't want to change their way of life (ie observing the Sabbath, etc), and it is a shame, because although Christ accepts us how we are, he will gradually make us to how he wants us, if we let him.
 
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seangoh

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Hi Padraigin. I'm glad to hear you're one of those people who listen online to Doug Batchelor and Mark Finley too. However, i'm surprised that you say Adventists have pinpointed the pope as the antichrist. I'm also a frequent online video fan of theirs including dwight nelson and i've never heard them pinpoint any individual regarding who the antichrist is. This is their stand and this is the Adventist Church's stand.

repentandbelieve stated that antichrist can have multiple meanings. Anyone who takes the place of God is an antichrist. This can include individual people. But never have i heard these speakers pinpoint any individual.

However, I believe the Adventist Church identifies the system or organisation that is the antichrist/beast.

Also, do note that there are many black sheep in the Adventist Church as with all churches. Alot of them say that the pope is the antichrist which is against the church's teachings. Do pardon them for their flawed understanding. :)

Giving the benefit of the doubt, the literature that you pointed out may have indicated the pope being the antichrist. But just to let you know that in Bible times, nations were represented by kings. Nebuchadnezzar represented Babylon, and Daniel referred to him as the head of the image. (Dan 2:38) So in the same way, an organisation can be represented by a person. So it's more of the organisation, not the person.

In any case, be assured that we as the church's understanding do not pinpoint any individual as the antichrist.
 
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StormyOne

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Haggai said:
Does not matter which Pope, it's the system, not individual people.
Literature about God is never outdated. God does not change, He does not update or come out with new versions of Himself. He is consistant and constant and will always stay the same. The Bible was written thousands of years ago but still applies to us today.
then why aren't we stoning to death disobedient children? Or putting to death those that break the sabbath? Are you sure you want to say that the bible applies to us today?
 
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jabechler

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repentandbelieve said:
Hello Padraigin. I don't think that the term anti christ should necessarily be confined to any one particulsr person.. According to the word there are many anti christ. Antichrist, meaning anyone who is against the will and work of God. The reason I say this is because 1 John 2:18 reads "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."

And I could never understand why believers feel the need to take on any name other than that of their Master r? Why not simply call themslves Christians?

Basically I love the way the Adventist present the Gospel. But IMO the deeper they go into their doctrine the more they depart from the simplicity of the Gospel.

Concerning the Sabbath, I recognize that saturday is the Sabbath day but I have many questions in regards to how one should observe it.
The Gospel brings us to Christ, to the foot of the cross and into a postion to be reconciled to the Father. The truths should bring our lives into a walk with our Lord. His life was a example of how to live a Godly life, a sanctified life. The Sabbath is a memorial to the Creator, a day to reflect and contimplate on Him. How one observes the sabbath is plainly laid out in the old testament as was given by God, Not by the Jewish leaders. Clarity comes by believing and observing with the mind of Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
 
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honorthesabbath

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Padraigin said:
Hello,

I am an adventist because of certian beliefs. I however, go to other churches that I am led. I have a disability, so somtimes it is hard to attend services on Sabbath. I try to listen online to Doug Batchlor or Mark Finley. However, I do believe that we have an idea of who the anti-christ is, but I do not believe it is a good idea to pin it on the pope. If so, we do not know which pope it would be. Some of the literature is outdated and needs to be updated. I love the Adventist for many other reasons. I really have to say I consider myself a christian of no denomonation, especially non-denominational, as with out passing judgement on all ppl from this type of church, they can get off the wall with telling you how you don't have enough faith, your possessed with demons etc. Yes, I do believe that you can be possessed, however they make it seems that you are sick etc.. as your own faithless fault. Not True. I have been blessed in my congrgation they are really not like that.

P-:crossrc:
Hello Pad, please allow me to correct you about the SDA beliefs about the anti-christ. We do not teach that "the pope" is the anti-christ. We teach that the "office of the papacy" is antichrist. Do you see the difference? If you study our position on this thoroughly, you will understand why we teach this. But the SDA is only upholding what the Reformers knew and taught. That indeed, any man who proclaims himself "Christ, wrapped in the garb of flesh" or who says his "uttereences are infallible" (and tons more of blashpemous statements-not the least of which he says claims to have to power to forgive sins!!)) indeed puts himself "in the place of Christ". Which means "antichrist". There is no doubt in my mind that this massive system of deception is in the heart of "antichrist". I hope this helps answer your concerns.
Blessings, Honorthesabbath
 
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GlorifyHim

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hi !
recently we have had a few young people in our church wanting to be baptised ONLY into christ rather than joining the church as well.

The ONLY way you can be baptized is "into Christ". It does not matter who baptizes you. That person or pastor has no right to make you a member of the church. The ONLY way you can be an SDA is by a majority vote of those members who happen to be in attendance on the particular Sabbath.

Anyone baptized by anyone can come to church and declare that they want to become a member on profession of faith. Then the vote is taken.

It is kinda like a social club. You could call it club Adventist.
 
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daro2096

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It would be wrong actually to call the Seventh-day Adventists a church but rather a world-wide movement of people who believe in likewise manner.

The Antichrist is the office of the Papacy. However anyone who puts themself in the place of Christ is an Antichrist.

(BTW I was only baptised last April 28th. You can see my picture in the June 1st issue of the Messagener which you can view as a PDF file on the SDA UK website in the newspiece Newcastle baptises six.)
 
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sentipente

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(BTW I was only baptised last April 28th. You can see my picture in the June 1st issue of the Messagener which you can view as a PDF file on the SDA UK website in the newspiece Newcastle baptises six.)
I will try to find the link but if you have it you should post it.

Since you are new to the faith I should be gentle with you but I tend to respond to ideas. If you post with authority ideas that I have already analysed, having been baptised in 1969, and found to be wanting you may find my responses to be a bit strong for you.

In any case, welcome to the family and I wish your experience with the Christ will be a meaningful one. You are headed in the right direction.
 
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thecountrydoc

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Hello once again to one and all.

The identification of the Antichrist starts with analyzing the original Greek text.

Thoughts on the Biblical Term Antichrist

In I John 2:18, 2:22, 4:3, and II John 7 we find the term antichrist used, which has generally been understood to mean opposed to Christ, or against Christ, with the assumption that the Greek prefix anti means essentially what the English anti means. In English anti-war would rightfully be understood to mean against war, or opposed to war. However, the question must be asked, What is the primary meaning of the GREEK word anti, and how does this amplify our understanding of the biblical term antichrist?



Fortunately, there are numerous examples of the Greek term anti found in the Scripture, and an examination of them will prove helpful. There at least 16 occurences of the term anti found in the New Testament, with 15 of them being translated for in the King James Bible, while one time it is translated by the phrase in the room of. Let us look at the usage first of all, which is found in Matt.2:22.
"But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judea in the room ofhis father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into parts of Galilee".​
One of the many times anti is translated for is Matt.20:28, a passage which reads
"Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give His life a ransom for many."​
Another is the familiar Luke 2:2:
"If a son shall ask bread of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he asks for a fish will he give him a serpent?"​
One more example is Heb.12:16, speaking of Esau who traded his birthright:
"Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright."*​
It is clear from these usages of anti the primary meaning of the term is instead of, or in place of, consistent with the word for. If one attempts to read any of the foregoing text and in the place of for substitute against, or opposed,the logic is lost. The Son of man did give His life against many, but as a substitute for many, or in the place of many.



Without argument, many times one who takes the place of another does so as an antagonist, or in opposition to him, and so these words which employ the prefix anti which have the meaning of opponent as their primary meaning. An example of this would be the word antidikos[adversary] in texts such as I Peter 5:8:
"Be sober, vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour."**​

But, because the bare term anti clearly utilizes the concept of substitution, it would be a mistake to examine the word antichrist without this in mind. Taking this approach, the antichrist is first of all one who seeks to take the place of Christ, to exercise authority instead of Christ. This is a concept with which the rest of the New Testament is entirely familiar, demonstrated by texts such as II Thess. 2:3,4:
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."​
The man of sin is described as usurping authority not rightfully belonging to him, attempting to masquerade as God, sitting in the seat of God. It is interesting to note that the word translated oppose in verse 4 is again a compound word, antikeima, meaning one who lies in the place of, or one who lies against. In Rev. 13, the beast power seeks to take the place of God by exhorting worship, something which rightfully belongs only to God, fulfilling the age-old designs of the arch-enemy, whose ambitious aspirations are recorded by the prophet Isaiah;
"Thou (Lucifer) hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High."(Isaiah 14:13,14)​

Since Seventh-day Adventists have generally found the fulfillment of these prophetic symbols in the historical papacy, it is interesting to see how this understanding impacts our interpretation. Without question, the papal power has attempted to take the place of Christ by title, by pronouncement, and by practice. The term vicar of Christ is instructive to compare the context. Vicar is of Latin origin, and meansone who takes the place of, or one who acts instead of. We use the adjective vicarious to describe Christ's substitutionary sacrifice. Thus, when the pope identifies himself as the vicar of Christ, to operate in His stead, as His substitute, take note of this strange irony, then. Since both anti and vicar mean the same thing, namely substitute or one who takes the place of, the one from Greek and the other from the Latin, when the pope accepts the title vicar of Christ, he is thereby also accepting the title of anti Christ. Unfortunatly, since most assume that the anti of antichrist means only against, or in opposition to, they are looking for a fulfillment of this prophetic symbol outside the church, while the Bible clearly identifies this power as coming from within. He sits
"in the temple of God (II Thess.2:4)."​
Paul warned the Ephesian elders;
"of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them (Acts 20:30)."​
John saw in vision Babylon typified as a woman(a church) which sat on a beast.

There is no question that the antichrist of the New Testament is an opponent of the true Christ, whose work is against that of Christ. But it would be a mistake of large proportions, when discussing the term antichrist to not include the concept of substitution, which the prefix anti clearly employs, which clarifies and amplifies the mission and identity of this important prophetic symbol.

*The other usages of anti in the New Testament are as follows:
Matt. 5:38 "an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
Matt. 17:27 "take, and give unto them for me and thee"
Mark 10:45 "and to give His life a ransom for many"
John 1:16 "have all received, and grace for grace"
Rom. 12:17 "recompense to man evil for evil"
I Cor. 11:15 "for (her) hair is given her for a covering"
I Thess. 5:15 "See that none render evil for evil"
Heb. 12:2 "Who for the joy that was set before Him"
James 4:15" for that ye ought to say, If the Lord"
I Peter 3:9 "Not rendering evil for evil"

** Other compound words which employ anti as a prefix include antilambano(see Luke 1:54 and Acts 20:35) translated helped and antilempsis in I Cor. 12:28 translated helpful deeds, and antileptor in Psalm 18:2 translated deliver. While there are other compound words using anti as a prefix in which the notion of against predominates, it is difficult to discern that flavor in the foregoing compound words.

I pray this will be of help in understanding the biblical term antichrist.

Your brother in Christ,
Doc
 
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sentipente

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I always cringe at the implication that those who can read Koine Greek have greater insight into the mind of the Creator. In fact, knowledge of Koine Greek only ensures that we get a better of understanding of what the writers of the bible believed. We still have to determine whether their beliefs were correct.
 
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sentipente

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Are you questioning God's ability to make sure that His word was translated correctly?

Respectfuly,
Doc
How do you come to that conclusion? Are you suggesting that God is bound by whatever theologians decide? I don't get the sense of this question?
 
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StormyOne

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Are you questioning God's ability to make sure that His word was translated correctly?

Respectfuly,
Doc
if it were translated correctly there would be no mistakes, nor would there be any misunderstanding about what was being said.... given that many throughout the existence of humans have misunderstood and the bible contains mistakes then the answer to your question would be ummmmm yes...

Let me be clear, the bible has everything a person needs to establish faith in the Creator... that is the purpose of the bible... when we use it for what it was NOT intended for, we get into trouble....
 
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