Sabbath School subject discussion thread

Adventtruth · Jun 5, 2008

RC_NewProtestants said:
I wrote: No wonder Christianity is in such decline, its adherents can't even express their philosophy coherently.

You don't reply to what I said and restate it as:

Oh I do apologise for taking your words out of context.

I asked the question, I praised the lesson quarterly for asking the question and then you accuse me of acting as if asking questions is a bad thing.

Its not your asking questions thats a bad thing. Its what you said here:

Saying I would teach them the gospel says nothing. It is like answering a question about the identical speed of two trains one leaving from point A and one from point B and asking where they intersect by saying I would teach my child the finer points of mathematics and the intricacies of word problems. You equate people not being able to explain their beliefs coherently as people not teaching their children the gospel. The gospel you can't define because you can't present it coherently. Because you can't answer the simple question other then by saying "I teach my children the gospel".

Unless I am misunderstanding you here...your point of explaining the gospel to children is like teaching them Algebra. If that is so, you under-estimate children and the gospel. The gospel is simple and not algebra....in a simple word to children...the gospel is the good news of Christ Jesus, the only perfect and righteous son of God, died for our sin and rose again, gaining victory over all His enemies, so that there is now no more comdemnation over those who place their trust in Christ...only everlasting eternal life. Anything more of what we must do or have to do is to add to the already good news of Christ Jesus. And if children ask question...thats a good thing. We are obligated to explain further. We never out grow the Gospel of God!

Well I am pretty sure what you are teaching is not the gospel, but then how would anyone know because you can't even explain Jesus' death.

What is it you would like me to explain about the death of the Son of God other than its part of the good news?

I assume this is what you think the explanation is:

But I will use that explanation for the class as it is typical of the majority of Christianity who hide behind theology speak. Even when the question as in this case was to be answered for a child, they can't do it.

You have assumed wrong...Christ imputes nothing in His death....but then again, you reject the bible doctrine of imputation of Christ righteousness.

AT

Adventtruth · Jun 5, 2008

StormyOne said:
thank you for sharing AT, I don't share your particular belief, and no I do not believe that God will punish those who have never heard of Christ. You did not address that issue at all... that being, for those who have never ever heard of Christ, you would have me believe that they will be punished.... Since you are not God, neither are you in the position to extend salvation, you cannot say if salvation is universal or not.... thanks for the dialog...

Stormy...if you would rather not continue in this discussion I understand, but if so, I'm wondering if you have scripture to support your idea that I may take a look...oh and by the way...I did address that idea in the John 3:18 passage. Those who don't believe are condemned already.

AT

StormyOne · Jun 5, 2008

Adventtruth said:
Stormy...if you would rather not continue in this discussion I understand, but if so, I'm wondering if you have scripture to support your idea that I may take a look...oh and by the way...I did address that idea i the John 3:18 passage. Those who don't believe are condemned already.

AT

a person cannot be condemned for disbelief IF they never had the opportunity to believe in the first place... for me that is the rub, a person cannot be punished for not believing in Christ if they were never introduced to Christ... while some have no problem with the idea, I do.... is there a passage to "support" my belief? let's try this one...

Mat 5:43-48 "You have heard that it was said, 'THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR and hate thine enemy.' (44) But I command you all, love your enemies, and pray for your persecutors; (45) that so you may become true sons of your Father in Heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the wicked as well as the good, and sends rain upon those who do right and those who do wrong. (46) For if you love only those who love you, what reward have you earned? Do not even the tax-gatherers do that? (47) And if you salute only your near relatives, what praise is due to you? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? (48) You however are to be complete in goodness, as your Heavenly Father is complete.

Would God ask us to do something he himself is not willing to do?

RC_NewProtestants · Jun 6, 2008

Adventtruth said:
Unless I am misunderstanding you here...your point of explaining the gospel to children is like teaching them Algebra. If that is so, you under-estimate children and the gospel. The gospel is simple and not algebra....in a simple word to children...the gospel is the good news of Christ Jesus, the only perfect and righteous son of God, died for our sin and rose again, gaining victory over all His enemies, so that there is now no more comdemnation over those who place their trust in Christ...only everlasting eternal life. Anything more of what we must do or have to do is to add to the already good news of Christ Jesus. And if children ask question...thats a good thing. We are obligated to explain further. We never out grow the Gospel of God!

What is it you would like me to explain about the death of the Son of God other than its part of the good news?

AT

As it appears it is your nature to misunderstand I think you must try to misunderstand (the example I used showed how a general topical, answer does not answer a specific question). But I won't continue this. It was not a difficult question, or should not be a difficult question, but as I have seen searching the internet to see how people explain the death of Christ it clearly is something that Evangelicals don't want to answer. The idea that you can't explain how the death of Christ is part of the good news, the why, the how shows that you have lost the gospel and instead embraced tradition.

Adventtruth · Jun 6, 2008

StormyOne said:
a person cannot be condemned for disbelief IF they never had the opportunity to believe in the first place... for me that is the rub, a person cannot be punished for not believing in Christ if they were never introduced to Christ... while some have no problem with the idea, I do.... is there a passage to "support" my belief? let's try this one...

Would God ask us to do something he himself is not willing to do?

Stormy.If a person cannot be condemned for disbelief if they never had the opportunity for Chirst, then what do we do with the numerous texts, to which I shall supply a passage, that say the complete opposite? And if you do believe this, which you have just stated in the affirmative, its not to the credit of the bible that you do. You are really unknowingly saying that Gods faithfulness to His own self is really a lie because He makes the promises of God of no effect by not condemning those who have been found guilty outside of Christ, but lets them go unpunished while His Glory is seen through there sin. God punishes sinners who are condemned by His Holy Law...Thats a bible fact! All who are not of the New Covenant are of the covenant of works that Adam broke and Israel was under and are outside of the covenant God made with Abraham, if not trusting by faith alone. Heres Paul argument to the Jews

But if our unrighteousness commends the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) 6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world? 7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? 8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just. 9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved

a both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. [1]

Your passage in Matt 5:43-48 has nothing to do with the idea that those who have not heard of Christ will not be condemned. Its about believers being loving to the unsaved, and Gods common grace to all. Gods goodness leads to repentance.

At

a proved: Gr. charged

[1]The Holy Bible : King James Version. 1995 (electronic ed. of the 1769 edition of the 1611 Authorized Version.) (Ro 3:5-18). Bellingham WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

Adventtruth · Jun 6, 2008

RC_NewProtestants said:
As it appears it is your nature to misunderstand I think you must try to misunderstand (the example I used showed how a general topical, answer does not answer a specific question). But I won't continue this. It was not a difficult question, or should not be a difficult question, but as I have seen searching the internet to see how people explain the death of Christ it clearly is something that Evangelicals don't want to answer. The idea that you can't explain how the death of Christ is part of the good news, the why, the how shows that you have lost the gospel and instead embraced tradition.

All I asked before was what about His death did you want to know. But I will answer your question now that I better understand you.

Before the cross can be for us...It has to be for God. Christ died to exult the Righteousness (justice) of God first! Plain and simple.

(Rom 3:25) whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
(Rom 3:26) It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

AT

StormyOne · Jun 6, 2008

Adventtruth said:
Stormy.If a person cannot be condemned for disbelief if they never had the opportunity for Chirst, then what do we do with the numerous texts, to which I shall supply a passage, that say the complete opposite? And if you do believe this, which you have just stated in the affirmative, its not to the credit of the bible that you do. You are really unknowingly saying that Gods faithfulness to His own self is really a lie because He makes the promises of God of no effect by not condemning those who have been found guilty outside of Christ, but lets them go unpunished while His Glory is seen through there sin. God punishes sinners who are condemned by His Holy Law...Thats a bible fact! All who are not of the New Covenant are of the covenant of works that Adam broke and Israel was under and are outside of the covenant God made with Abraham, if not trusting by faith alone. Heres Paul argument to the Jews

Your passage in Matt 5:43-48 has nothing to do with the idea that those who have not heard of Christ will not be condemned. Its about believers being loving to the unsaved, and Gods common grace to all. Gods goodness leads to repentance.

At

AT, you feel comfortable believing that God will punish those who never had an opportunity to decide whether they believe or not... I don't share that view... You believe that the bible is the final word on the matter and I don't share that view either.... so as I said a few posts ago, thanks for the dialog, I think we have gone about as far as we can with this topic...

Take care...

Adventtruth · Jun 6, 2008

StormyOne said:
AT, you feel comfortable believing that God will punish those who never had an opportunity to decide whether they believe or not... I don't share that view... You believe that the bible is the final word on the matter and I don't share that view either.... so as I said a few posts ago, thanks for the dialog, I think we have gone about as far as we can with this topic...

Take care...

Ok Stormy...but kindly tell me where comes your views please...if its not to bothersom? Do they have an orgin out side of you?

AT

StormyOne · Jun 6, 2008

Adventtruth said:
Ok Stormy...but kindly tell me where comes your views please...if its not to bothersom? Do they have an orgin out side of you?

AT

my views come from thinking about some of the issues in religion that don't make any sense, and attempting to find meaningful answers to questions as opposed to agreeing with the traditional "godtalk" that is often used when people refuse to really think about an issue....

God blessed humans with a mind that He encourages us to use... in that sense my views would find its origins in Him......

Adventtruth · Jun 6, 2008

StormyOne said:
my views come from thinking about some of the issues in religion that don't make any sense, and attempting to find meaningful answers to questions as opposed to agreeing with the traditional "godtalk" that is often used when people refuse to really think about an issue....

God blessed humans with a mind that He encourages us to use... in that sense my views would find its origins in Him......

Thanks for sharing Stormy.

AT

StormyOne · Jun 7, 2008

Adventtruth said:
Thanks for sharing Stormy.

AT

no problem....

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · Jun 7, 2008

Be blessed, HtS. May God richly bestow His abundant mercy and His sweet delicious fire upon you.

edie19 · Jun 7, 2008

MOD HAT ON

Closing thread temporarily pending staff review for thread cleanup of off topic posts

MOD HAT OFF

edie19 · Jun 8, 2008

MOD HAT ON

multiple posts deleted as off topic from OP

moving forward please post with Colossians 4:6 in mind
Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one.

MOD HAT OFF

moicherie · Jun 9, 2008

Its a hard question, maybe Christ did not have to die as in no other choice. The bible says without the shedding of blood there is no remission for sin, one can shed blood without dying. Perhaps Christ death shows the ultimate result of sin - sin causes the created to murder its creator.

moicherie · Jun 9, 2008

The books of Acts mentions God winking at people in their ignorance. People who are ignorant lack the knowledge to make an informed decitsion regarding a matter. That text in Acts supports Stormy's premise.

Adventtruth · Jun 9, 2008

moicherie said:
Its a hard question, maybe Christ did not have to die as in no other choice. The bible says without the shedding of blood there is no remission for sin, one can shed blood without dying. Perhaps Christ death shows the ultimate result of sin - sin causes the created to murder its creator.

Christ Death ultimatley showed Gods righteousness.

(Rom 3:25) whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
(Rom 3:26) It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Its all about God!

AT

Adventtruth · Jun 9, 2008

moicherie said:
The books of Acts mentions God winking at people in their ignorance. People who are ignorant lack the knowledge to make an informed decitsion regarding a matter. That text in Acts supports Stormy's premise.

Only if you are not trusting the word of God as the final word. So heres the rest of the story.

(Act 17:30) The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,
(Act 17:31) because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead."

All will be judged in strict justice! The ignorant have no excuse.

(Rom 2:14) For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
(Rom 2:15) They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
(Rom 2:16) on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

AT

RC_NewProtestants · Jun 9, 2008

No doubt Christ's death shows God's righteousness. Because the right thing to do is what God is doing by reaching out to humanity. That is what justice is about, a return to balance and harmony. God was not the one out of harmony so He had to be the one to act, man can't come to God so God came to man. The idea that God punished Jesus (who is God) is simply the pagan idea of appeasement of God, and you can find that language in the Bible because people were surrounded by that type of religion so they used that kind of language. But it clearly does not fit with the idea of love that keeps no record of wrong, or love that seeks out to benefit others.

Unfortunately it is a paradigm shift that should have taken place a long time ago but it did not because it seemed to be easier to scare people into religion then to love them into Christianity. Today people are too sophisticated for such scare tactics. What we should have trumpeted years ago we now must or Christianity will make no sense to people. But those who can't see their own philosophical problems will hold to their wooden literalism because otherwise they have to learn to think and many people don't like to have to think. So that they will just repeat their traditions and say man's reasoning is foolishness unless their traditions are repeated.

Adventtruth · Jun 9, 2008

RC_NewProtestants said:
No doubt Christ's death shows God's righteousness. Because the right thing to do is what God is doing by reaching out to humanity. That is what justice is about, a return to balance and harmony. God was not the one out of harmony so He had to be the one to act, man can't come to God so God came to man. The idea that God punished Jesus (who is God) is simply the pagan idea of appeasement of God, and you can find that language in the Bible because people were surrounded by that type of religion so they used that kind of language. But it clearly does not fit with the idea of love that keeps no record of wrong, or love that seeks out to benefit others.

Unfortunately it is a paradigm shift that should have taken place a long time ago but it did not because it seemed to be easier to scare people into religion then to love them into Christianity. Today people are too sophisticated for such scare tactics. What we should have trumpeted years ago we now must or Christianity will make no sense to people. But those who can't see their own philosophical problems will hold to their wooden literalism because otherwise they have to learn to think and many people don't like to have to think. So that they will just repeat their traditions and say man's reasoning is foolishness unless their traditions are repeated.

You can't have it both ways RC. Either God is a just God or He is not. Christ suffered for the human race. He suffered because of Gods Love....first for His own Glory and for mankind second. God must uphold His own righteousness, and He has a passion for His own Glory, and in doing so His wrath fell upon His Son as the substitution for all of humanity. Thats love that any one can understand, and not a scare trick!

Now you can sugar coat it by saying thats what the people thought in those days...appeasment or what ever, but the bible teaches a substitutional death for mankind. This may not fit your idea of your God, but its What my God did for us. The idea of punishment is related to the punished doing the crime. Christ did no crime....so He SUFFERED for the crimes of others while doing no crime. His suffering for others satisified Gods justice and wrath for a broken law. The MIT is only a part and not the most important part of the Gospel...there is a legal ahead of the moral.

AT

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