Sabbath School subject discussion thread

[RC_NewProtestants]

Here is my thoughts on this coming lesson. I did not write out my questions for the class yet but you can add any of your thoughts here.

Jesus' Divinity, A Philosophical Necessity

Since I am presenting the Sabbath school Lesson this week I thought I would put in the blog as it does reflect upon some of the subjects presented here over the last month.


The Subject for the quarter is Jesus and this week is the mystery of Jesus’ Deity. Last week our leader went over the historical controversies that divided the Christian church for the first 500-600 years. It is important to remember that the battle over who Jesus is not solved because the ruling churches at that time or subsequent say they have figured it out and presented a creed. The winners of histories battles can claim their victories but that does not make their victories truth and that became the problem of orthodoxy. The winning Christians declared their beliefs as orthodox and anything else heresy. Thus began the decent into traditionalism and away from reasoned faith.


So the mystery of Jesus’ deity may not be so much a mystery as much as simply making sense of what we have and then putting it together in a reasonable fashion.


For Christians as for anyone else dealing with philosophical ideas the first question is what do we need to know about God once we have determined that there is a need to conceive of a God. Assuming the Jewish Scriptures to be inspired we see a God who has a special people He raises up through no part of their own. The writers present a God who is loving and forgiving, cruel and ruthless. Who will kill His own people if they disobey (death sentences for Sabbath breakers, Adultery and rebellious children) and will tell His nation to wholesale kill other nations. Who said in the 10 commandments don’t murder and then told the Israelites to kill all of a people including the children and animals.

(1 Sam 15:3 KJV) Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

​

We are left with a picture of God which is frankly very confusing, even more confusing with our modern sensibilities but then our modern sensibilities are shaped by material which presents God in a less confusing light then that of the blood and guts of the Old testament stories. (see Judges 21 for a horrible story of cruelty by Israel,

(Judg 21:11 KJV) And this is the thing that ye shall do, Ye shall utterly destroy every male, and every woman that hath lain by man.(Judg 21:12 KJV) And they found among the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead four hundred young virgins, that had known no man by lying with any male: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh, which is in the land of Canaan.)​

So our natural question is what is God like and how do we relate to this God?


At Sinai the Children of Israel pleaded for Moses to talk to God and stop the fearful voice of God

(Exo 20:18 NIV) When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance (Exo 20:19 NIV) and said to Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die."
​

From then on the messages were relayed through prophets. Until New Testament times.

(Heb 1:1 NIV) In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, (Heb 1:2 NIV) but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. (Heb 1:3 NIV) The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.​

What is God like is the most important question we have to ask, is He worthy of worship, is He worthy of trust? Any being with enough power can enforce worship, respect can be produced out of shear fear but love never can be produced that way and trust is never obtained through fear.


Anyone could have come and made claims about God, people or angels but that would not have revealed the character of God it would have only been what someone was saying about God maybe true maybe not we would either have to take their word for it or not. In reality the only one who can reveal the character of God is God. It was the question that we had to ask and the only answer could come from God Himself.


Our question is philosophical and our question was philosophically answered by the book of John in the first chapter. It is an answer to the questions that were being asked at the time the book was written who is Jesus is He the Spirit that brings secret knowledge as the Gnostic claimed, is He the God who is in opposition to the wrathful God in the Old Testament as Marcion put forth. Or one of those other views we discussed last week. John presents Jesus as the Logos. We translate that as the Word but it had a much more specific philosophical meaning. Logos:

1. In pre-Socratic philosophy, the principle governing the cosmos, the source of this principle, or human reasoning about the cosmos.
2. Among the Sophists, the topics of rational argument or the arguments themselves.
3. In Stoicism, the active, material, rational principle of the cosmos; nous. Identified with God, it is the source of all activity and generation and is the power of reason residing in the human soul.

The source, the principle governing the universe, you really can’t miss what John is saying Jesus Christ is God. He is the argument for God revealed to humans, the argument that answers some of our important questions. Only God can answer the question of what God is like, not a man, not an angel, not a man who lives a perfect life even if he depends upon God for everything he does. That would not be God only God as God reveals His character.


You may think the debate about who Jesus is was completed a long time ago. But in fact even in the Adventist church today there are people who want to remove God from Jesus who want to stress the man Jesus as separate from God, someone who really lived as a man to show us that a man can live a perfect life if he depends upon God. These people destroy the whole philosophical argument of the New Testament. They are simply teaching a different gospel.

 

[Sophia7]

I haven't read the SS quarterly, but maybe I should so that I know what they're teaching. I find it interesting that even though the Adventist Church has officially adopted a Trinitarian position and moved away from the Arianism of the Adventist pioneers, most Adventists don't have as much of a problem with those who disagree with the FB on the Trinity as they do with those who disagree with the beliefs on the IJ or EGW or unclean meats.

We had some non-Trinitarian members in one of our churches who used EGW to uphold their position. They didn't deny the divinity of Christ, though; their issue was with the nature of the Holy Spirit.

The 28 FBs are kind of vague on the nature of Christ, leaving room for both fallen- and unfallen-nature advocates within Adventism.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

This week is the deity of Christ next week is the humanity but it seems to me if you get the deity part right then the humanity part is a really easy. And it matters not at all the post fall or prefall nature because you have that decided with the divine nature. Then you don't have to even deal with the idea that Jesus lived the perfect life as a man to show us it can be done because it was God living as a man. Sort of destroys several TSDA misconceptions pretty quickly.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Did you see this sticky they placed on the TSDA forum. Now the major characteristic of the SDA church is last generation perfection:

What makes us different?

The following statements summarize the Adventist message. They are to be linked to the FSGs. No debate please.


Seventh-day Adventist church may appear different to some because of their worship service on Saturday, the 7th day of the week, or their promotion of the vegetarian diet and a conservative life style, or their beliefs on the state of the dead and on annihilation...

But what really sets them apart is the unique Adventist message. During the worldwide religious revival movement of mid-1800s, God commissioned His servants the prophets (Rev 10) to proclaim the Three Angels' message (Rev 14:6-11) to the world. And by proclaiming the bitter sweet message (Rev 10:9-11) and by experiencing the Great Disappointment of 1844, the faithful remnant of the 1840s' movement were forced to search the bible for their errors.

The unique Adventist message was formed during this time. Not by the dictates of Ellen White's testimonies, but rather by the light shed from these inspired writings that forced the early Adventists to refocus on the scriptures. Through earnest prayers and diligent bible studies, the pioneers came to the understanding of their message.

By grasping the sanctuary doctrine, they understood by vivid illustrations of the earthly tabernacle found in the bible the Plan of Salvation and true Righteousness by Faith message. That is the ever present truth proclaimed throughout the bible: "...prepare to meet thy God..." Amos 4:12

The true believers of God who are daily justified with Christ's righteousness imputed and sanctified with His righteousness imparted, are to have complete victory over sin, to reproduce His character in fullness in their lives.

"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;" 1 Peter 2:9.

By the manifestation of His love and character, they are to witness with the power of the holy spirit to the Laodicean church and to haste unto the blessed hope of His long-awaited return.

That is the unique Adventist message.
http://christianforums.com/t7128209-what-make-us-different.html

 

[Sophia7]

This week is the deity of Christ next week is the humanity but it seems to me if you get the deity part right then the humanity part is a really easy. And it matters not at all the post fall or prefall nature because you have that decided with the divine nature. Then you don't have to even deal with the idea that Jesus lived the perfect life as a man to show us it can be done because it was God living as a man. Sort of destroys several TSDA misconceptions pretty quickly.

That's a good point.

 

[Sophia7]

Did you see this sticky they placed on the TSDA forum. Now the major characteristic of the SDA church is last generation perfection:

I saw that. They've gone way beyond the 28 Fundamental Beliefs now. There are a whole lot of Adventists who agree with all of the FBs but who wouldn't agree with the LGT stuff. Good thing Moderates are included in the title of this forum.

 

[StormyOne]

the road they are taking leads to craziness, not perfection....

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

I just checked the Spectrum website to say what their guest commentator would have to say on the subject and lo and behold they skipped this weeks lesson and went on to next weeks. The humanity of Christ. David Larson wrote the article, not too good in my opinion and there are 80 comments (that is a lot).

I guess I will stick a link to my article even though likely few will read down 80 comments. But maybe some people are looking for the subject for this week.

 

[Telaquapacky]

I'll tell you a story about perfection. Five years ago I bought an Optometry practice with an old run-down office building in a town mainly populated by farm laborers; and a second office 20 miles away in a new shopping mall, professionally decorated, with all new, state-of-the-art equipment, in a fast growing, expensive area of the county seat. The former doctor had a dream of starting up the new office and selling the old office in that little farm town. He had put all his money into the new office and let the older office go to seed. He worked the new office for six months, and then died in a motorcycle accident. When I bought both offices over a year and a half later, the older office was covered with neglect. I used to call the offices Lazarus and the Rich Man. But I fell in love with the older office. I like being out in the country. I especially like owning the building instead of leasing, as the newer office is leased.

Since that building in the little farm town has been mine, it has changed in ways that you would hardly recognize it from what it was. I replaced the roof and the air conditioning unit. I got a new radio and antenna, and all through the office, we play Christian music from a local Adventist station, instead of the soft rock they used to play. Patients comment on it, and it gives opportunity for witness. The building has been completely re-stuccoed, I put in a new disabled ramp and railings, I planted lush landscaping, I repaved the crumbling, dirty asphalt parking lot in concrete. I replaced the water main and the phone system. I repainted the inside with hand-made faux finish. I replaced all the computers and am in the process of replacing them again and going to new Electronic Medical Records software that will make us paperless. I recarpeted the floors, put new vinyl floor in the kitchen-break room, and re-upholstered the chairs. I am now in the process of adding new signage outside, and building a carport with photovoltaic solar power cells that will cut our electricity bills to nothing.

What I am doing is "perfecting" the building. Of course, it will never be "perfect." To make it perfect, I would have to tear it down and build a new one. But every year I spend with that building shows a mark of my presence there. I make a difference that is visible, that you can see, hear, feel and experience.

Does Jesus make a difference in the people who spend time with Him? He sure does! Be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to the doctrine of Christian perfection.

 

[StormyOne]

the point though is that you (the "owner") are effecting the change in the building... the building did not and could not say, I will perfect myself.... the process of perfection is directed and controlled by God, not by us.... Paul said that we look to him the author and perfector of our faith.... To me that is a significant difference...

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Also the point is that you or your building never reach perfection. Even if you tore it down and built new it would not reach perfection. No one is suggesting that Christianity is not a process for the better, well some radical Atheists perhaps but certainly not Christians themselves.

It is the type of bait and switch tactic that really causes confusion. One side is talking about perfection and the other is talking about growing in relationship. Then the perfection people switch the topic and say that the people who talk about growing in a relationship but still being sinners are trying to discount growing in a relationship with God.

I suspect it is that practice which causes so many to accept last generation perfection.

 

[moicherie]

the road they are taking leads to craziness, not perfection....

perhaps they are perfectly crazy?

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

I asked this question on the TSDA Sabbath School subforum, with no answer given and some complaints that the subforum was even being used, so I will post it here also.

--
This Next Sabbath has a very important issue. For a counterpoint to the Lesson study guide on this lesson see: The Meaning of Christ’s Death

The lesson asks how would you explain to a 10 year old the meaning of Christ's death, that is how do you explain Christ death in relation to salvation/reconciliation. Are there any here who would care to share how they would explain to a 10 year old?

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Did you see this sticky they placed on the TSDA forum. Now the major characteristic of the SDA church is last generation perfection:

How else will God's remnant stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator after the close of probation? Those who subscribe to the 18th fundamental belief of SDAism are well aware that the continuing and authoritative source of truth teaches that those living immediately prior to Christ's second coming must be perfect.

BFA

 

[StormyOne]

I asked this question on the TSDA Sabbath School subforum, with no answer given and some complaints that the subforum was even being used, so I will post it here also.

--
This Next Sabbath has a very important issue. For a counterpoint to the Lesson study guide on this lesson see: The Meaning of Christ’s Death

The lesson asks how would you explain to a 10 year old the meaning of Christ's death, that is how do you explain Christ death in relation to salvation/reconciliation. Are there any here who would care to share how they would explain to a 10 year old?

what I told my kids when they were younger was simple.... Just as a loving parent would jump into a raging river to save their child so God jumped in to rescue us.... sometimes the rescue effort may mean death, sometimes not...

As an aside when my daughter was 4 or 5 she asked the pastor who was giving the children's story using John 3:16, that if God loved us so, why didn't God come himself as opposed to giving his son..... the pastor was speechless.....

 

[Byfaithalone1]

As an aside when my daughter was 4 or 5 she asked the pastor who was giving the children's story using John 3:16, that if God loved us so, why didn't God come himself as opposed to giving his son..... they pastor was speechless.....

Tough question. You've got a deep thinker at home--eh?

BFA

 

[Adventtruth]

I asked this question on the TSDA Sabbath School subforum, with no answer given and some complaints that the subforum was even being used, so I will post it here also.

--
This Next Sabbath has a very important issue. For a counterpoint to the Lesson study guide on this lesson see: The Meaning of Christ’s Death

The lesson asks how would you explain to a 10 year old the meaning of Christ's death, that is how do you explain Christ death in relation to salvation/reconciliation. Are there any here who would care to share how they would explain to a 10 year old?

My daughter is 8 years old now. She was in a SDA childrens class on sabbath until about a years and a half ago when my family resigned from the Adventist Denomination. She never went to Seventhday Adventist schools, but has been in an Baptist school from k-1. Very early we started giving her an understanding of who Christ was and His mission. She never got this from her Adventist class on Sabbath only that He was Gods Son, sabbath keeping and the law. Nothing about why He can and died.

The Baptist school also help her understanding of who Christ is and his mission. I've explained the gospel to her from early on, and she understands the gospel. She reads it from the bible. The gospel is very simple and most children can understand it. If a person can't explain the gospel to their children, then chances are they don't understand the simplicity of it themselves.

Just my two cents.

AT

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Except for stormy no one has given me an answer. And Stormy's answer I don't think would satisfy even his own daughter because the almighty God would not have to die to rescue anyone, so the question I would have expected her to ask was why would death be necessary for the all powerful God who could have simply stopped the water or lifted the person he was rescuing from the water. So at best Stormy's answer is delaying the answer to the question.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Except for stormy no one has given me an answer.

What must that be like?

For what question are you seeking an answer? You've raised many points, and I already spoke to one of them.

BFA

 

[Adventtruth]

BFA don't be pulled into the discussion by a trick of RC. Remember now...he believes that the cross was just a moral aspect and not legal at all. The Moral Infuence Theory

AT