Sabbath questions

[VictorC]

There was a time in Israel's history when God blessed her and allowed her to prosper. Then God withdrew his protection and delivered Israel into the hands of the Gentiles. What was it in Israel that had changed? Did the Israelites ever break the Law when they were blessed? Certainly, but in those days, when sin was discovered it was repented of and put away. Take David. He didn't rely on the Law to make him just before God:

"But I have trusted in thy mercy; my heart shall rejoice in thy salvation."
Psalm 13:5

He knew he was a sinner, that he had broken God's Law, but it did not stop him from declaring repeatedly in Psalm 119 "How I love thy Law!" Not because he could keep it, but because he knew that it was righteous. Repentance does not mean admitting that you are a sinner, it means a godly sorrow for your sins, actually the New Testament word means to turn away from your sin and towards God. Is somebody who is truly remorseful for their sins going to say that they are free to sin as they please? Even if it were true? Or will he, to the best of his ability, put sinful habits out of his life, not in order to earn salvation, but because he hates sin? Without striving to keep the Law there is no repentance, and without repentance, no forgiveness. Grace is changed from from an offer to turn your own wickedness to a license to live however you please. Christ then becomes only a Savior from death, not a Savior from sin. Wanting eternal life is one thing. Being willing to be delivered from your sin is quite another.

You appear to have confused the law mediated by Moses with a guide on "how to live good". Codified law is not a guide; it contains a death penalty for noncompliance.

David also extolled the law in Psalm 19, and yet he is inspired to finish his praise with these words:
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

Now, why is David looking forward to a Redeemer, and tell me, what is it that this Redeemer is going to purchase him from?

And, have the import of these words been lost on you?
Romans 11:32
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

When you finish you studies, you are no longer under the schoolmaster's authority, but do you forget what your schoolmaster taught you? Or is the reason why you are no longer under your schoolmaster because you are expected to already know what he would have to teach you? Also, if the Gentiles were never under the Law, why does Paul assert that they (the church of Rome was Gentile) ever were under a schoolmaster?

Perhaps you missed Paul's comments in Romans 7:1 that he is addressing those who know the law, which would be a Jewish subset of the population.

The law is akin to a map, in Paul's mind.
Once you have reached the destination the map was designed to get you to, you have no further need of the map.

So in the Fourth Commandment, when God said to rest on the seventh day, He was only talking about one particular seventh day, not every seventh day. To be consistent in your interpretation, that is what you would have to conclude.

There is no "fourth commandment" in Genesis 2, and you show time and again that you're not reading the passages faithfully.

"And the LORD God took Adam, and put him in the garden of Eden to dress it and keep it."
Genesis 2:15

After the seventh day, when God alone rested!

"In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal. 3:28

And the reason you're applying Moses to those in Christ Jesus is ... what?

Typical to deride the feasts by calling them "Jewish" (implying that they are not Christian) when God states that they are His feasts.

Read them, where it precudes them with:

"Speak to the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts."
Lev. 23:2

There isn't any other recipient present, is there?

Different kind of rest.

That says it all!
One rest is eternal, and the other is temporal and was repeated every week, because it didn't last.

I'll deal with the claim about the Sabbath being changed to Sunday in another post.

That would be in Iosias' purview, since I make no such claim.

Victor

 

[VictorC]

Excellent post! John, in his gospel, provides a very complete and precise chronology that was either ignored or lost by later generations.

I have no qualms with the chronology, but the purpose has somehow been forgotten in all of this.

Galatians 4:1-7
1: Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2: But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3: Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4: But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5: To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6: And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7: Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

God came and submitted Himself to the law mediated by Moses - even though He wasn't subject to it, since He was the law's creator and Sovereign to it.
And Jesus fulfilled the law in order to redeem those who were subject to it, so that they could become adopted sons and daughters of God.

This passage is a concise summary of the entire Gospel.

Victor

 

[Cribstyl]

I agree with you here. I do see a Sunday celebration for the church due to the resurrection of Christ, but to call it a transference of Sabbath from the last day of the week to the first day is not an idea I find in the bible. A Sunday celebration in honor of the finished works of God in Christ and the sacredness of the day is special to many people. And if one decides to keep the first day as if it was a Sunday Sabbath, is fine in my opinion, but lets not attach a legalistic lable on it and make it law for all people. Personally I believe one has to be fully convinced in his own mind of what they believe about the Sabbath. God desires mercy rather than sacrifice. How many of you would let your OX remain in a ditch on the Sabbath day and not dig it out?

AT

Well said AT (my friend)...........As you know, SDA and Messianics have establish in their doctrine that sabbathkeeping is one of the ten commandments. This means to them that failure to keep the Saturday sabbath is breaking God's law.

When we try to reason with them from the bible, they present statements that adds to the understanding of the text that they use as the foundation for their beliefs.

Direct evidence
1. Genesis 2:1-3
2. Genesis 4:3

Gen 2:1-3 continues from Gen 1 about what God did after the first six days as the creator of all.
No dialog is written about man resting with God.
Truth to consider is, if Adam had entered God's rest, why is it written that noone had entered God's rest until those who believe can enter it?
A key phrase about God's rest is,.."from all His worK"
Not one hint about man being commanded to rest from all their work, because if Adam was created on the sixth day, what work is attributed to him?
Did God create man to work or rest?
The focus of Moses lesson in Gen 1and2 is on the acts of the creator not the created.

Bottom line is, Gen 2:1-3 presents no direct evidence that humanity was given a sabbath or God's rest, these text teach that God cease His work of creation and entered into His place of rest.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Only commentary can connect Gen 4:3 to a sabbath.
Using texts that are silent on an issue allows some people to make up teachings not found in the bible.

Gen4:3 present no direct evidence that humanity was given a sabbath.

Faith is base on what God has said or promised through His prophets and apostles (HIS WORD).
Satan from the beginning has caused humanity to reject God's word and create their own doctrines.

In love and truth
CRIB

 

[bbbbbbb]

Prima facie evidence
1. Genesis 5:29
2. Genesis 7: 10
3. Genesis 8:10, 12
4. Genesis 29:27

In examining the prima facie evidence presented here one is faced with an esiegetical interpretation of scripture. The mention of the number seven, seven days, or a week without the slightest context of Sabbath or rest hardly provides believable evidence for your argument.

It is not unlike those friends of ours in the RCC who mine the deutercanonical books for "evidence" of their connection with the New Testament.

 

[visionary]

Why would God test the Israelites in the wilderness on the sabbath issue.. before Mount Sinai.. before handing down the law?

 

[Adventtruth]

Why would God test the Israelites in the wilderness on the sabbath issue.. before Mount Sinai.. before handing down the law?

Simple if you read the text...

(Exo 16:4) Then the LORD said to Moses, "Behold, I am about to rain bread from heaven for you, and the people shall go out and gather a day's portion every day, that I may test them, whether they will walk in my law or not.
(Exo 16:5) On the sixth day, when they prepare what they bring in, it will be twice as much as they gather daily."


AT

 

[visionary]

So... is that evidence of the existence of the law before Mount Sinai?

 

[visionary]

How did Yeshua wish to have it regarded by His disciples at the siege of Jerusalem, nearly forty years after His death?
"But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:" Matthew 24:20.

 

[visionary]

What was the first effort of the Roman Church in behalf of the recognition of Sunday?
"In A.D. 196, Victor, Bishop of Rome, attempted to impose on all the churches the Roman custom of having Easter fall every year on Sunday." Bower's History of the Popes, vol.2, page 18.

What was one of the principal reasons for convoking the Council of Nice?
"The question relating to the observance of Easter, which was agitated in the time of Anicetus and Polycarp, and afterward in that of Victor, was still undecided. It was one of the principal reasons for convoking the Council of Nice, being the most important subject to be considered after the Arian Controversy." Boyle's Historical View of the Council of Nice, page 22, ed. of 1839.

How was the matter finally decided?
"Easter day was fixed on the Sunday immediately following the new moon which was nearest after the vernal equinox." Idem. page 23.

In urging the observance of this decree on the churches, what reason did Constantine assign for it?
"Let us then have nothing in common with the most hostile rabble of the Jews." Idem, page 52.

What had Constantine already done, in A.D. 321, to help forward Sunday to a place of prominence?
He issued an edict forcing "the judges and town people and the occupation of all trades" to rest on the "venerable day of the sun." See Encyclopedia Britannica, art. Sunday.

Eusebius was bishop of Caesarea, and one of Constantine's most trusty supporters. Who did he say had changed the obligations of the Sabbath to Sunday?
"All things whatsoever that it was duty to do on the Sabbath, these WE have transferred to the Lord's day." Eusebius's Commentary on the Psalms, quoted in Cox's "Sabbath Literature," Vol. 1, page 361.

 

[visionary]

Sabbath is Foremost of G-d's Appointed Feasts.

Lev. 23:1-3
HaShem said to Moses, "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'These are my appointed feasts, the appointed feasts of HaShem, which you are to proclaim as sacred assemblies. There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a day of sacred assembly...'"

 

[Adventtruth]

So... is that evidence of the existence of the law before Mount Sinai?

No one is arguing that law did not exist bfore Sinai...In Ex 16 we find that God first mentioned that He wanted to test Israel in the Sabbath...NOT that it was already being practiced by others. There is not scripture stating God commanded others to observe Sabbath before this passage.


AT