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In terms of the letters engraved on stones, that seems to be the whole part.Why do you always focus on the death part of the Law
As I understand it, the ministry of the Spirit brings life and the letters engraved on stones bring death.when it also says the Law that was to bring life?
Not so. The Seed has come. The chapter that you've cited (i.e. Galatians 3-4) seems to confirm that.If you are, born of a woman, then you too were born under the Law.
In terms of the letters engraved on stones, that seems to be the whole part.
As I understand it, the ministry of the Spirit brings life and the letters engraved on stones bring death.
Not so. The Seed has come. The chapter that you've cited (i.e. Galatians 3-4) seems to confirm that.
BFA
What a sad, unbiblical teaching.It is true that we will need to stand before God without a mediator in a time to come
Another sad, unbiblical teaching.BUT I hope that what is clear is that while there is no longer mediation taking place after that time, for then salvation is then no longer being offered
Sadly, this concession does not make the teaching any more Biblical. Jesus Himself promised that He always lives to intercede for us. Your teaching leaves us with the impression that Jesus lied. We can't have it both ways. Either Christ always lives to intercede for us or He doesn't.we will still be filled with the Holy Spirit
OK. I did so, just in case I missed something. I'm still not finding any evidence that Jesus will cease to intercede for us.Please re-read the Parables and evidence given -
Please share with us which translation you're using. None of the reputable translations include the phrase "not until His work as a mediator shall be ended." You seem to have added that phrase. As an example, here the NASB:"... He “shall sit and rule upon His throne; and He shall be a priest upon His throne.” Not now “upon the throne of His glory;” the kingdom of glory has not yet been ushered in. Not until His work as a mediator shall be ended will God “give unto Him the throne of His father David,” a kingdom of which “there shall be no end.” Luke 1:32, 33.
Hebrews 9:28 does not include a teaching that Christ will cease to intercede for us. The Bible does not contradict itself.Hebrews 9:28
With all due respect, I've not concluded that this book is a continuing and authoritative source of truth. I understand and accept that you have.[The Great Controversy; Page 416]
Great texts! They confirm that the letters engraved on stones (i.e. the letters that include "thou shalt not covet") bring death. Now, let's consider the previous 6 verses which seem to shatter the notion that the law is everlasting and eternal:Romans 7:7-13 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet.'' But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.
Certainly not because of the law. The law is not sin; it is good, just and holy. The law brought death because the people did not keep it. All sinned. Nonetheless, the letters engraved on stones brought death due to the opportunity they afforded. It is for this reason that the ministry of the Spirit is more glorious than the ministry of letters engraved on stones. It is for this reason that I advocate for the Spirit, not law.The Law was to bring life but instead it brought death. Why?
I would much prefer to delight in that which is more glorious.Do you think there is a slim chance that you might delight in the Law?
Amen... The reason why I say, Amen, is because the law states a person must be stoned for breaking it but I don't say, Amen, to the fact that we can now willfully and without conviction break the law.Byfaithalone1;Great texts! They confirm that the letters engraved on stones (i.e. the letters that include "thou shalt not covet") bring death. Now, let's consider the previous 6 verses which seem to shatter the notion that the law is everlasting and eternal:
1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Certainly not because of the law. The law is not sin; it is good, just and holy. The law brought death because the people did not keep it. All sinned. Nonetheless, the letters engraved on stones brought death due to the opportunity they afforded. It is for this reason that the ministry of the Spirit is more glorious than the ministry of letters engraved on stones. It is for this reason that I advocate for the Spirit, not law.
I would much prefer to delight in that which is more glorious.
What a sad, unbiblical teaching.
Another sad, unbiblical teaching.
Sadly, this concession does not make the teaching any more Biblical. Jesus Himself promised that He always lives to intercede for us. Your teaching leaves us with the impression that Jesus lied. We can't have it both ways. Either Christ always lives to intercede for us or He doesn't.
OK. I did so, just in case I missed something. I'm still not finding any evidence that Jesus will cease to intercede for us.
Please share with us which translation you're using. None of the reputable translations include the phrase "not until His work as a mediator shall be ended." You seem to have added that phrase. As an example, here the NASB:
"He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.Hebrews 9:28 does not include a teaching that Christ will cease to intercede for us. The Bible does not contradict itself.
With all due respect, I've not concluded that this book is a continuing and authoritative source of truth. I understand and accept that you have.
BFA
Apparently the only words you really read in the passage are " added because of transgressions". Doesn't that really mean that there was sin before the law given at Sinai,(which including the ten)? Eating of the forbidden tree in Eden is not stated in the law given to Israel.
You say God's law was understood since Adam. Does that make sense when the verses say the law was added 430 years after Abraham until the Seed came? It certainly doesn't say God reminded people 430 years later of the everlasting law already given to the whole world.
If this repetition means that we are compelled to observe the whole law, then are we also compelled to offer animal sacrifices and keep all sabbaths . . . since all of these things are mentioned in the New Testament?The whole Law is repeated and confirmed all throughout the New Testament, not done away with.
Often, it's fascinating not only to read the passages that folks cite, but also the ones they don't. Case in point:2 Corinthians 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
In the ongoing spirit of this thread, let's learn more by reading more of the context. Here's the preceding 9 verses:Hebrews 8:10 "For this is the new covenant that I will make with the house of Israel: After those days,'' says the Lord, "I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people
If this repetition means that we are compelled to observe the whole law, then are we also compelled to offer animal sacrifices and keep all sabbaths . . . since all of these things are mentioned in the New Testament?
Often, it's fascinating not only to read the passages that folks cite, but also the ones they don't. Case in point:
But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. 10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory. 12 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, 13 and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. 14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.In the ongoing spirit of this thread, let's learn more by reading more of the context. Here's the preceding 9 verses:
Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “SEE,” He says, “THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN.” 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.As fascinating as this is, it seems that text swapping may not be the best use of our time.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,
“BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
BFA
What a sad, unbiblical teaching.
Another sad, unbiblical teaching.
Sadly, this concession does not make the teaching any more Biblical. Jesus Himself promised that He always lives to intercede for us. Your teaching leaves us with the impression that Jesus lied. We can't have it both ways. Either Christ always lives to intercede for us or He doesn't.
OK. I did so, just in case I missed something. I'm still not finding any evidence that Jesus will cease to intercede for us.
Please share with us which translation you're using. None of the reputable translations include the phrase "not until His work as a mediator shall be ended." You seem to have added that phrase. As an example, here the NASB:"He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.”Hebrews 9:28 does not include a teaching that Christ will cease to intercede for us. The Bible does not contradict itself.
With all due respect, I've not concluded that this book is a continuing and authoritative source of truth. I understand and accept that you have.
BFA
The Ten Commandments teach what godly love and righteousness looks like at it's basic level. Every sin and crime committed in the world has its root in God's Law.
We know that eating from the forbidden tree in Eden is not in God's Law in the same way writting bad checks is not in God's Law. But does that mean these acts don't violate God's Law? In the garden, Eve was coveting something that she couldn't have and gave into that desire. She also stole something that didn't belong to her. She also put herself as God. She also lied because God never said not to touch the tree. She also dishonored her Father. You could even say she killed when she gave it to Adam. I'm sure the list can go on but I think you get the point.
Apparently the only words you really read in the passage are " added because of transgressions". Doesn't that really mean that there was sin before the law given at Sinai,(which including the ten)? Eating of the forbidden tree in Eden is not stated in the law given to Israel.
You say God's law was understood since Adam. Does that make sense when the verses say the law was added 430 years after Abraham until the Seed came? It certainly doesn't say God reminded people 430 years later of the everlasting law already given to the whole world.
I know that is what you think, but what does the Bible passage we have quoted say? It says the law was added 430 years after Abraham until the Seed came. The specific Law given to Israel has a start and stop date.
Okay, you win, let's use only the New Testament to set the standard.
Let's have no other gods before God.
Matthew 4:10 Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! For it is written, `You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve."
Let's not make ourselves any idols nor worship them.
1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
Let's not take the name of the Lord God in vain.
Luke 1:49 because the Powerful One has done great things for me. His name is holy.
Let's honor the day that Jesus states He is Lord of.
Mark 2:28 "Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath."
Let's not put more value on Jesus' day than we do on necessary needs.
Matthew 12:12 "Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.''
Let's honor our father and mother.
Ephesians 6:1-2 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. "Honor your father and mother,'' which is the first commandment with promise: "that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth."
Let's not commit murder.
1 Peter 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people's matters.
Let's not commit adultery.
Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.
Let's not steal.
1 Peter 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people's matters.
Let's not bear false witness.
Ephesians 4:25 Therefore, putting away lying, each one speak truth with his neighbor, for we are members of one another.
Let's not covet.
Luke 12:15 And He said to them, "Take heed and beware of covetousness.
Wow! I think we can now agree...praise the Lord.
Are we to ignore what Galations says? Just because the 600+ laws given to Israel contain some good moral values does not mean the covenant is somehow transferred to Christians. Believe the Bible!
Do you go get checked out by a priest if you get a skin sore? Are your grain offerings always made without yeast? Do you rest from all you labors on the seventh day? Is your fellowship offering animal without defect?
Are we to ignore what Galations says? Just because the 600+ laws given to Israel contain some good moral values does not mean the covenant is somehow transferred to Christians. Believe the Bible!
Do you go get checked out by a priest if you get a skin sore? Are your grain offerings always made without yeast? Do you rest from all you labors on the seventh day? Is your fellowship offering animal without defect?
I would imagine he did so because there is truly no distinction between old covenant laws. The old covenant included 600+ laws, not 10.Just curious why you chose to include the 4th Commandment Law with the ceremonial laws.
We seem to be left with a choice. We can believe Christ's promise that He always lives to intercede for us and that He will never leave us or forsake us, or we can accept your teachings.The part of the "intercession" is only so long as is necessary in the providence and wisdom of God. There is a time when there will be no more intercession.
For that matter, His work of atonement was completed once for all on the cross. It is not a future event; it is an already completed event.His work in the Heavenly Sanctuary will be completed, once and for all and even forever.
Through the blood of the Lamb the need may dry up, but the opportunity for intercession will not. Jesus Christ always lives to intercede for us. We will not stand before God without an intercessor prior to Christ's second coming.The reality of Christ Jesus intercession is not to be eternally ongoing, for it must end, even as the type ended [though it was continually repeated, pointing to the one time event of Christ and His own], otherwise sin and sinners would be eternal, needing eternal intercession.
The corruptible puts on incorruption at the trump of God, not before.There is even coming, a point in time, where there is to no longer be sin or sinners
If this is true, then we should be able to agree that we will never have the need to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator, for Jesus ever liveth to make intercession for us.The passage of Hebrews 7:25 does not say that Jesus is to ever make intercession for us, it says plainly that he "ever liveth" to make intercession for us.
I agree. For many, this doctrine has been used to inflict fear in those who have questions. God is not a God of fear.This subject is very important to understand.
I would imagine he did so because there is truly no distinction between old covenant laws. The old covenant included 600+ laws, not 10.
BFA
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