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Russians fume as Mormons 'buy souls'

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Wrigley

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Source: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1091318,00.html

Russians fume as Mormons 'buy souls'

[font=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]Nick Paton Walsh in Moscow
Sunday November 23, 2003
The Observer


[/font][font=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]The Russian Orthodox Church has expressed its outrage at what it claims is a Mormon scheme to buy up the names of dead Russians in order to baptise 'dead souls' in their faith.


In one archive, in the town of Nizhni Novgorod, east of Moscow, the Church of the Latter Day Saints has paid ten US cents for each page of thousands of names of dead people dating mainly from the late eighteenth century to be put on a microfilm.

The idea, the last-ditch attempt of a cash-strapped archive to fund urgent preservation work, has caused fury among the predominantly Orthodox nation. The Mormon Church is angry at what it sees as an obstruction to its religious practices.

Father Igor Pchelintsov, spokesman for the local Orthodox Church, said: 'The teaching of the Mormons about the conversion of the dead contradicts reason and naturally causes concern among the faithful and creates a tense situation.'

The work in the archive has been temporarily called off while a local government commission studies it.

Nikolai Cheromin, a local official, said: 'Their work is not prohibited. It is suspended and a group comprising officials and prosecutors from the four traditional Russian religions - Christian Orthodox, Jews, Buddhists and Muslims - are studying it.' He said the Mormons had been present in the town for 100 years, albeit clandestinely during the Soviet era.

Viktor Kharlanmov, head of the Nizhni Novgorod regional archive, said the project was the result of an agreement between the Mormon-linked Genealogical Society of the state of Utah and the Russian Society of Historians and Archivists in Moscow. He said it was 'vital to save an important part of our archives'. Seventy per cent of the Mormon cash goes to the Moscow society, while 30 went to the local archives.

Orthodox experts and officials have expressed their severe concern over the offence the project might cause locals. Professor Alexei Dvorkin, head of the Sectology Department of the Moscow St Tikhon Institute, said: 'The Mormon practice of proxy baptism or 'baptising the dead' is a well known ritual described in a lot of books. At the beginning of this practice they were looking for their ancestors with the aim of baptising them, but later they began to baptise everyone - Catholics, Muslims, Jewish, or Orthodox.

'Any Christian will tell you that these rituals do not harm the soul of the dead. But it hurts the feelings of the believers who see these rituals with the names of the deceased as equal to the desecration of graves by Satanists.' But Yevgeny Smirnov, from the Nizhni Novgorod Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and adviser to the Moscow Mormon region, said: 'Our church aims to create a database permitting people to look for their ancestors. Our ceremony is not rebaptism; it only gives the soul of the deceased person the freedom of choice to accept our belief or to reject it.'
[/font]
 

Serapha

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Hi there!

:wave:


"'Our church aims to create a database permitting people to look for their ancestors. Our ceremony is not rebaptism; it only gives the soul of the deceased person the freedom of choice to accept our belief or to reject it.'


According to biblical teachings, the soul is immediately in its eternal state at the death of the physical body. The Bible never teaches of a "second chance".

~malaka~


 
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calgal

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Malaka said:
Hi there!

:wave:


"'Our church aims to create a database permitting people to look for their ancestors. Our ceremony is not rebaptism; it only gives the soul of the deceased person the freedom of choice to accept our belief or to reject it.'


According to biblical teachings, the soul is immediately in its eternal state at the death of the physical body. The Bible never teaches of a "second chance".

~malaka~
Good point. Thanks! :clap:
 
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Malaka said:
Hi there!

:wave:
According to biblical teachings, the soul is immediately in its eternal state at the death of the physical body. The Bible never teaches of a "second chance".

~malaka~
Aaah, so if you never had the chance to learn of Christ you go straight to Hell, is that what you are saying?

From my perspective I could never believe that God would not give them a chance (in this case it would be a first chance, seeing as they never got one on earth). By the way, I also believe that we don't get a second chance once we have had that chance.
 
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Serapha

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Spiceman said:
Aaah, so if you never had the chance to learn of Christ you go straight to Hell, is that what you are saying?

From my perspective I could never believe that God would not give them a chance (in this case it would be a first chance, seeing as they never got one on earth). By the way, I also believe that we don't get a second chance once we have had that chance.

Hi there!

:wave:

"so if you never had the chance to learn of Christ you go straight to Hell, is that what you are saying?"

No, that is not what I said. Go back and read what I posted.

"According to biblical teachings, the soul is immediately in its eternal state at the death of the physical body. The Bible never teaches of a "second chance"."


Then, I refer you to Romans chapter one and two which should answer your further questions concering the invisible qualities of God.

~malaka~
 
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fatboys

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My neighbor just returned from Russia from this very town you speak of. Talked in church today about it. It was the only city, of about 1.5 million people who were not allowing Mormon missionaries in to preach the gospel. It was pure discrimination against one church. All other religions were recongized to do so except the LDS religion. They had to take it to court and the church won. The Russian church there is so angry that they have been making up all sorts of things to give the church a bad image. Although the church was paying for names to put on the micro film, the only angry ones were the leaders of the orthodox church. Most of the Russians love the US and the missionaries.

When this Elder begin to preach in this town they were still skeptical of the Elders. Mainly because they were mostly Americans.
 
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calgal

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fatboys said:
My neighbor just returned from Russia from this very town you speak of. Talked in church today about it. It was the only city, of about 1.5 million people who were not allowing Mormon missionaries in to preach the gospel. It was pure discrimination against one church. All other religions were recongized to do so except the LDS religion. They had to take it to court and the church won. The Russian church there is so angry that they have been making up all sorts of things to give the church a bad image. Although the church was paying for names to put on the micro film, the only angry ones were the leaders of the orthodox church. Most of the Russians love the US and the missionaries.

When this Elder begin to preach in this town they were still skeptical of the Elders. Mainly because they were mostly Americans.
What specifically were the lies you allege the Russians told? Please provide documentation. :scratch:
 
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Serapha

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fatboys said:
My neighbor just returned from Russia from this very town you speak of. Talked in church today about it. It was the only city, of about 1.5 million people who were not allowing Mormon missionaries in to preach the gospel. It was pure discrimination against one church. All other religions were recongized to do so except the LDS religion. They had to take it to court and the church won. The Russian church there is so angry that they have been making up all sorts of things to give the church a bad image. Although the church was paying for names to put on the micro film, the only angry ones were the leaders of the orthodox church. Most of the Russians love the US and the missionaries.

When this Elder begin to preach in this town they were still skeptical of the Elders. Mainly because they were mostly Americans.
Hi there!

:wave:

I don't think the problem with the posting is whether or not the article is exhibiting the entire truth. The fact remains, and the purpose of the posting was to bring to light that the CoJCoLDS's performs baptisms for the dead in support of "second chance".




~malaka~
 
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Der Alte

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Spiceman said:
Aaah, so if you never had the chance to learn of Christ you go straight to Hell, is that what you are saying?

From my perspective I could never believe that God would not give them a chance (in this case it would be a first chance, seeing as they never got one on earth). By the way, I also believe that we don't get a second chance once we have had that chance.

Or we could read the Bible. Man is held responsible for what has been revealed to him.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
 
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Wrigley

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Malaka said:
Hi there!

:wave:


"'Our church aims to create a database permitting people to look for their ancestors. Our ceremony is not rebaptism; it only gives the soul of the deceased person the freedom of choice to accept our belief or to reject it.'


According to biblical teachings, the soul is immediately in its eternal state at the death of the physical body. The Bible never teaches of a "second chance".

~malaka~
I agree with you. But what the Mormons will say is that those souls didn't ~get~ a chance while they were alive. The baptism gives them that chance.
 
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Andre

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To be honest with you I'd let them do it, it won't make a difference to the souls of the dead being baptized, if they were saved they are saved in the presence of Jesus now, if they weren't they are unfortunatly in hell already so they can baptize them as much as they want, it won't change a thing
It's not a biblical practice though.

How can you believe that you can give someone a second chance if they are already dead, it's like saying I have the power to give them a second chance, and if I don't do it they go to teletubbie land...
I believe those decisions are reserved to God only.
 
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TOmNossor

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Andre:

To be honest with you I'd let them do it, it won't make a difference to the souls of the dead being baptized, if they were saved they are saved in the presence of Jesus now, if they weren't they are unfortunatly in hell already so they can baptize them as much as they want, it won't change a thing
It's not a biblical practice though.




TOm:

In truth, I have always wondered why those who think the LDS are deceived really care if we think our efforts matter. If we are wrong it is just water in a white building.



All,

LDS do not believe in a second chance at all. Men are judged based on there time in the mortal probation. I could provide a statement from a LDS leader to show this, or you can just believe me. Or not.



Concerning immediate judgment after death I believe this is not inconsistent with LDS beliefs, but Catholics do not see this the same as Protestants do.



Charity, TOm
 
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Andre

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I kinda see this related to 1cor 10 where Paul is telling them that they can buy meat offered to idols, the idols aren't real so you can go ahead and eat your steak.
But he also tells us to avoid eating it if it offends a brother, I don't aproove their pactice and if it were up to me they wouldn't do it, but if they do it nobody is going to loose their salvation or get a chance to get saved.
It's our job to spread the gospel of Jesus to the ends of the earth because without Jesus there is no salvation, otherwise God would have told us to don't go anywhere and just baptize people after they die so they can make their decision then, and personally I think no one would dumb enough to see God and still deny Him after they were dead.

[conversation in heaven]
Hi, welcome to the court of heaven, this is God, that one is Jesus, over here you have Hell, and there you have heaven, if you acept Jesus as you Lord and Savior you will go there, if you deny Him you'll burn in that lake of fire forever, which one do you choose?
[/conversation in heaven]


Romans 10
13 for " WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, " HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"
16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, " LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
 
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calgal

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fatboys said:
Sorry, guys I can only tell you what this Young return missionary said over the pulpit. My nephew served in the town where they shot and killed the Elder. He said similar things about the Russian Orthodox church and their feelings toward LDS church.
So this is second hand evidence from a biased observer? And your lack of backup data or citations is allright but quotes from YOUR OWN LEADERS Writings over the last 150 years is not allowed? The double standard seen here is baffling me. :rolleyes:
 
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fatboys

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I told you where my story came from. I believe the Elder was telling the truth since he was involved in the process. I am sure there are records in Russian courts which would bear this out. I have heard from other sources that the Russian Orthodox church was really against the LDS church. That what ever influence they had, was put against having any normal relations with the LDS Church. This was several years ago. So I was not surprised about last city to let missionaries in, and the reasons for it. If it is important to you, I will find out more.
 
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calgal

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fatboys said:
I told you where my story came from. I believe the Elder was telling the truth since he was involved in the process. I am sure there are records in Russian courts which would bear this out. I have heard from other sources that the Russian Orthodox church was really against the LDS church. That what ever influence they had, was put against having any normal relations with the LDS Church. This was several years ago. So I was not surprised about last city to let missionaries in, and the reasons for it. If it is important to you, I will find out more.
:sigh: So you are using second hand information and passing it off as fact. Well, considering the White Salamander Letters, that is par for the course. :rolleyes:
 
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