Rumsfeld apologizes, accepts responsibility.

[seebs]

http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/base/news-15/108400517393070.xml

"These events occurred on my watch as secretary of defense. I am accountable for them. I take full responsibility," Rumsfeld said. "I feel terrible about what happened to these detainees. They are human beings, they were in U.S. custody, our country had an obligation to treat them right. We didn't. That was wrong."

There is endless idle speculation to be had about who knew what, when... But I'm glad to see an official statement on the record capturing the most essential truth; what happened was wrong, and is not justified or excused.

I continue to be more than a little shocked at the whole thing. This seems to me to show the essential danger of demonizing your enemy; your soldiers may come to believe that the enemy isn't really human, and that individual members of the "enemy" group are not entitled to basic human rights.

 

[Doctrine1st]

http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/base/news-15/108400517393070.xml



There is endless idle speculation to be had about who knew what, when... But I'm glad to see an official statement on the record capturing the most essential truth; what happened was wrong, and is not justified or excused.

I continue to be more than a little shocked at the whole thing. This seems to me to show the essential danger of demonizing your enemy; your soldiers may come to believe that the enemy isn't really human, and that individual members of the "enemy" group are not entitled to basic human rights.

This is really damaging to what the US is trying to accomplish as far as the propaganda war, it ultimatley may cause the loss of more American lives as fodder to rally terrorism and the terrorists. However, I've never been in the military, but I would imagine there is a certain amount of brainwashing in depicting the enemy as less than human to cope with the fact that you may have to place the site of your gun between their eyes one day. But what was done in this camp is inexcusable, they were in check.

There is a big difference in outrage and response given the attrocities on both sides, but how many Iraqis who are being occupied by a foriegn force will see that big picture? Very few perhaps or maybe that majority of supporters that I often hear about over there who continue to remain inactive in their support of freedom in action and voice.

 

[MichaelFJF]

.....still searching for an apology for buildings knocked down, or soldiers dragged through streets, or civilians hung from bridges. Stupid google - must not be working. M

 

[datan]

buildings knocked down -- what does this have to do with the prison abuses?
civilians hung from bridges -- happens when you occupy another country.

 

[MichaelFJF]

Yeah whatever.

 

[datan]

what a mature comeback.

you must be losing your touch.

 

[davyuk]

.....still searching for an apology for buildings knocked down, or soldiers dragged through streets, or civilians hung from bridges. Stupid google - must not be working. M

Don't worry, Bush may get around to it sooner or later.

 

[Bulldog]

But I'm glad to see an official statement on the record capturing the most essential truth; what happened was wrong, and is not justified or excused

So am I.

 

[tom]

RUMSFEILD NEEDED TO APOGOIZE AND PUNISH THOSE WHO DID THAT.

 

[Piano Player]

.....still searching for an apology for buildings knocked down, or soldiers dragged through streets, or civilians hung from bridges. Stupid google - must not be working. M

Let me get this right. Are you saying its OK to torture people in Iraq because Saudi citizens from Afganistan knocked down our buildings? Is that because when one Muslim commits a crime against US we can hold all Muslims accountable? The prisoners were prisoners when civilians hung from bridges. Based on reports, the civilians were actually mercenaries. I'm not trying to justify their hangings, but the torture of unrelated prisoners is not an appropriate response.

 

[Citizen of Earth]

Rummy's apology was essentially forced.

He knew about this long before the public did, and so did Bush.

Rummy isn't sorry this happened.
Rummy is sorry this happened on his watch and that people found out about it.

 

[Citizen of Earth]

.....still searching for an apology for buildings knocked down, or soldiers dragged through streets, or civilians hung from bridges. Stupid google - must not be working. M

The text quoted above exemplifies what I mean by "Pure, unadulterated ignorance."

This is just sick.

 

[xMinionX]

.....still searching for an apology for buildings knocked down,

Ah ha! The obligatory reference to 9/11. Unfortunatley, no connection between 9/11 and Iraq found, sooo....

or soldiers dragged through streets,

Like Datan said, it's gonna happen when you occupy countries.

Or are you saying that we should stoop down to their level and play their game? I'd like to think we could serve as an example to Iraq (and the rest of the world) of how a civilized country conducts itself and treats its prisoners.

 

[Ben is Dead]

buildings knocked down -- what does this have to do with the prison abuses?
civilians hung from bridges -- happens when you occupy another country.

God I am so tired of people referring to civilians being hunged from bridges. The U.S signed the Geneva Convention-last I heard the violent Iraqi mob did not. IT WAS A VIOLENT MOB!!! In WW2, a German bomber pilot crash landed on British soil and was beaten to death by a British mob.

 

[seebs]

However, I've never been in the military, but I would imagine there is a certain amount of brainwashing in depicting the enemy as less than human to cope with the fact that you may have to place the site of your gun between their eyes one day.

Indeed. One thing I have found terrifying is the ease with which some (but not all) military folks can dehumanize whole groups of people, exempting them from any and all rules. I know too many Christians who believe that it is perfectly acceptable to lie to atheists, because they don't "deserve" honesty. Not a good witness...

 

[jameseb]

Indeed. One thing I have found terrifying is the ease with which some (but not all) military folks can dehumanize whole groups of people, exempting them from any and all rules.

That smacks of bias regardless of you pointing out that it is "not all" military "folk." Nevermind that I've heard more of this demonizing from non-military people.

I know too many Christians who believe that it is perfectly acceptable to lie to atheists, because they don't "deserve" honesty. Not a good witness...

Really? I don't know a single one who has ever said that.

 

[Elyse]

Indeed. One thing I have found terrifying is the ease with which some (but not all) military folks can dehumanize whole groups of people, exempting them from any and all rules. I know too many Christians who believe that it is perfectly acceptable to lie to atheists, because they don't "deserve" honesty. Not a good witness...

It's true how it's easier to look at a group of people and call them evil. But to know a person's family. Know what he loves and hates and how he looked as a baby. How much his mom loved him, how much his wife loves him. How he looks when he laughs. And then kill him. Or hate him. Or call him evil. That's hard. But iff you can group people together as "terrorists" or "atheists" or "tools of Satan" then you can feel righteous while hating them. As if you are on a crusade from God. Helps us sleep at night.

 

[Existential1]

a German bomber pilot crash landed on British soil and was beaten to death by a British mob.

As a child, I was told stories by those who had seen live German aircraft men, thrown by mobs, onto the burning sugar of bombed Clydeside warehouses.

 

[Elyse]

As a child, I was told stories by those who had seen live German aircraft men, thrown by mobs, onto the burning sugar of bombed Clydeside warehouses.

That's what I mean. We can easily do that in our patriotism, but how many of us could hold those men's children while they watched that happen to them? It sort of cheapens our indignation over what was done to the Jewish people, when we are capable of similar atrocities---maybe not on such a grand scale, yet. But we are capable, as news stories point out.

 

[Existential1]

That smacks of bias regardless of you pointing out that it is "not all" military "folk." Nevermind that I've heard more of this demonizing from non-military people.

Most of us, certainly those of age, have relatives or immediate faimily who have fought in wars: where, for Brits, that was often dirty, extended colonial wars. We read, we went to school and studied many things.
Today the military presents itself. This latest war had controlled journalism like never before. The military managed how it presented itself. And its precisely from such self testimony, with all its technically centred perspective: that people have drawn what has made them sit back, and say; wait a minute, if you look at things in that way, then this or that thing that I see as essential to my humaness, just doesn't get factored in.
Then they remember what family members have told them what happens in wars, and they remember data from other wars: and slowly but surely the clean war we are promised, with pefect young troops; begins to erode.
The language of the administration and the military, and from our own PM: took away any suggestion that the enemy had the principle and qualities that we assume for ourselves; they were demonised as enemies of freedom, remnants of an eveil regime with nowehere to go, evil men only understanding the nihilism of destruction.
This is demonisation.