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Rules for Bible interpreting...

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by rkbo, Jan 17, 2002.

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  1. lig75

    lig75 New Member

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    Christian
    Read between the lines on some posts. Anyway I see this subject is mainly for a few who monopolize it. I still think I see snobbery in some places.
     
  2. edjones

    edjones Active Member

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    Hay John, thanks for the kind words.
    Hopefully I won't get banned from here anytime too soon.
    I miss the other forum and all you guys.
    Keep lifting up the Lord Jesus Christ,
    ed
     
  3. Christsoldier

    Christsoldier So, I'm an apologetic!

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    I think when arguing with skeptics it may help to have different translations and be educated more thoroughly than your average lay person.

    But, for the average person, especially a new believer, I always recommend an easy reading translation to get them started.
     
  4. filosofer

    filosofer Senior Veteran

    +287
    Lutheran
    Okay.

    Appreciate that.

    Statistically people can make many statements that "sound convincing"; but upon closer examination the person could have erred in several ways. For instance, if we consider all New testament manuscripts (no matter which textual family), and consider a difference in two manuscripts even if only one letter in one place differentiates the two manuscripts. Then, check all other manuscripts on that one letter in that one spot. Then, consider all the possible variations of every difference in letters and/or words of all manuscripts in every place in the New Testament, that total number of differences is less than 2% of the entire New Testament text. So, 30% or 70% differences - well, it doesn't match the evidence.

    Another problem is that many assumptions are made before these statistics are studied. For instance, if a person assumes the solution prior to investigation, that assumption very likely skews the data.

    There are also logical fallacies made in some of the arguments, which need further examination.

    One of the problems is that when a logical error is made, or an assumption is made, the one doing the study is often the least likely person to spot the error (true in any field of study). However, when questions are raised about the methodology or logic, some people become defensive, taking it as personal insult and so respond with a personal attack rather than examining the evidence and underlying assumptions.

    For instance, if you disagree with a stated position, the person who made the original statement can attack you by calling you "snobbish" or by claiming that you are not really a believer because you don't accept that person's position. Such a response has nothing to do with the disagreement, and certainly does not address the underlying logical or methological error or assumptions.
     
  5. edjones

    edjones Active Member

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    Archaic Words in the NIV

    BIBLE VERSE- NIV -AV
    Ezra 9:5 -abasement- heaviness
    Is 24:23- abashed- confounded
    Ezek 40:18- abutted -over against
    2 Chr 15:14- acclamation -voice
    Is 13:8 -aghast -amazed
    Ezek 40:13 -alcove -little chamber
    2 Chr 13:22 -annotations -story
    Num 31:50 -armlets -chains
    Acts 2:6 -bewilderment -confounded
    Ps 58:7- blunted -cut in pieces
    Job 8:2 -blustering -strong
    Ps 93:4 -breakers -waves
    Ex 35:22 -brooches -bracelets
    Is 57:4 -brood- children
    Dan 10:6 -burnished -polished
    Rev 4:3- carnelian -sardine
    I Sam 13:5 -charioteers -horsemen
    Rev 18:12 -citron- thyine
    I Ki 7:6- colonnade -porch
    Ex 13:3- commemorate- remember
    Song 2:12 -cooing -voice
    I Ki 4:22 -cors- measures
    Gen 18:8- curds- butter
    Zec 6:6- dappled- gristled
    Gal 5:19 -debauchery -lasciviousness
    2 Sam 21:5 -decimated --destroyed
    Gen 40:6 -dejected -sad
    Is 44:20- deluded -deceived
    Matt 18:28- denarii- pence
    Matt 20:2 -denarius- penny
    Lev 21:12- desecrate -profane
    Jer 30:16 -despoil -give for a prey
    John 18:3- detachment- band
    Ezek 13:22- disheartened- sad
    Ps 7:14 -disillusionment -falsehood
    I Pet 4:4- dissipation -riot
    Ezra 2:69 -drachmas- drams
    Hab 1:15 -dragnet drag
    Lk 20:23 -duplicity craftiness
    Pro 28:12 -elation -glory
    Ecc 12:11- embedded- fastened
    Ps 73:21 -embitter -grieved
    Rom 2:20- embodiment- form
    Mk 14:31 -emphatically -vehemently
    2 Chr 30:22- encouragingly -comfortably
    Pro 23:10- encrouch- enter
    Ps 69:2 -engulf- overflow
    2 Chr 17:14 -enrollment -numbers
    Ps 45:11- enthralled- greatly desire
    Lk 9:34 -enveloped- overshadowed
    Eph 6:4 -exasperate- provoke
    Ezek 25:7 -exterminate- perish
    Is 14:8 -exult- rejoice
    1 Ki 16:21 -factions -parts
    Is 8:21 -famished -hungry
    1 Sam 28:24- fattened- fat
    Jude 16- faultfinders complainers
    Song 4:5 -fawns -roes
    Micah 2:2- fellowman -man
    Ex 5:1 -festival -feast
    I Sam 25:8 -festive- good
    Deut 27:6 -fieldstones -whole stones
    Acts 28:11 -figurehead -sign
    Ex 28:20 -filigree- enclosings
    Ezek 26:5- fishnets- nets
    Is 30:17 -flagstaff- beacon
    Ezek 34:21- flank -side
    Ps 89:47 -fleeting- short
    Acts 22:23 -flinging- threw
    Acts 5:40 -flogged- beaten
    Gen 7:11 -floodgates- windows
    Is 16:2- fluttering- wandering
    Is 59:13- fomenting -speaking
    Josh 2:23- forded- passed over
    Jude 25 -forevermore -for ever
    Ps 104:26 -frolic -play
    Is 27:9- fruitage -fruit
    Jer 46:20 -gadfly -destruction
    Is 24:8 -gaiety -mirth
    1 Sam 18:8 -galled -displeased
    Gen 19:1 -gateway -gate
    Gen 41:3 -gaunt -leanfleshed
    Job 16:8 -gauntness -leanness
    Lev 11:30- gecko -ferret
    Ex 2:12- glancing- looked
    Hab 3:11 -glint -light
    Job 41:32- glistcning -shine
    Ps 30:1- gloat- rejoice
    Job 10:21 -gloom -darkness
    Ezek 39:19 -glutted- full
    Is 51:17- goblet -cup
    Gen 14:1- goiim -nations
    James 3:12- grapevine -vine
    Rev 20:14 -Hades -hell
    Is 28:24 -harrowing -break the clods
    Ps 44:19- haunt- place
    Gen 2:10- headwaters- heads
    Lev 11:19- hoopoe -lapwing
    Ezek 17:17 -horde -army
    Deut 14:5- ibex -pygarg
    2 Tim 2:20 --ignoble -dishonour
    Ezra 6:11- impaled -hanged
    I Cor 15:50 -imperishable- incorruption
    Hab 1:6 -impetuous -hasty
    Amos 6:5- improvise- invent
    1 Chr 21:1 -incited -provoked
    Pro 9:7 i-ncurs -getteth
    Heb 7:16 -indestructible -endless
    Mk 10:41- indignant -displeased
    1 Cor 12:22- indispensable -necessary
    Is 44:11- infamy -ashamed
    2 Chr 12:3 -innumerable -without number
    Jer 48:30- insolence -wrath
    Rom 1:30- insolent -despiteful
    2 Ki 2:23 -jeered -mocked
    2 Chr 34:11- joists- couplings
    Deut 18:3 -jowls- cheeks
    1 Sam 10:16 -kingship- kingdom
    Acts 27:30- lifeboat -boat
    Matt 2:1- magi -wise men
    Jer 49:25- mainstay- chief
    Job 12:6- marauders- robbers
    Job 32:14- marshaled- directed
    1 Sam 13:20- mattocks -courter
    Job 13:12- maxiums -remembrances
    Ps 81:2 -melodious- pleasant
    Ezra 6:2- memorandum- record
    Lk 19:16 -mina -pound
    Acts 18:14 -misdemeanor- wrong
    Rom 16:18 -naive -simple
    Est 2:10 -nationality -people
    Is 40:23 -naught -nothing
    Gen 12:9 -Negev -south
    Gen 6:4 -Nephilim -giants
    2 Sam 19:7 -nightfall- night
    2 Sam 4:5 -noonday- noon
    Dan 11:43- Nubians -Ethiopians
    Job 22:24- nuggets -gold
    Lam 4:5 -nurtured- brought
    Ezek 27:26- oarsmen- rowers
    Ps 88:12- oblivion- forgetfulness
    Eph 5:4- obscenity filthiness
    Ex 29:14 -offal --dung
    2 Ki 17:32- officiate -sacrificed
    Mk 6:1- opportune -convenient
    Job 28:2 -ore -stone
    Ps 49:16 -overawed -afraid
    Is 16:6 -overweening -very
    Deut 22:8 -parapet -battlement
    Lk 23:9 -piled- questioned
    Deut 32:11 -pinions -wings
    Est 1:6- porphyry -red
    Is 20:3- portent -wonder
    1 Ki 6:3 -portico- porch
    2 Ki 20:7 -poultice -lump
    Matt 27:27- Praetorium- common hall
    Dan 3:3 -prefects -governors
    Acts 13:8 -proconsul- deputy
    Deut 21:20 -profligate -glutton
    Ezek 16:26- promiscuity- whoredoms
    Jude 12 -qualm -fear
    Num 11:4 -rabble- mixed multitude
    Hab 2: 11 -ramparts -tower
    Gen 49:14 -rawboned -strong
    Ex 8:14 -reeked -stank
    1 Sam 13:21- repointing -sharpen
    Pro 14:33 -reposes -resteth
    Gal 2:9 -reputed- seemed
    I Chr 16:32- resound -roar
    Ps 76:4 -resplendent -glorious
    Neh 9:25 -reveled -delighted themselves
    Is 22:13 -revelry -gladness
    Jer 2:30- revening -destroying
    Jer 2:6 -rifts -pits
    Song 1:13 -sachet- bundle
    Est 3:12 -satraps -lieutenants
    Ps 68:13 -sheathed- covered
    Ecc 9:14- siegeworks- bulwarks
    Ps 116:6 -simplehearted -simple
    2 Sam 6:5 -sistrums- cornets
    Mk 4:37 -squall- storm of wind
    Rev 14:20 -stadia -furlongs
    Song 2:9 -stag hart
    Deut 4:45 -stipulations testimonies
    1 Sam 7:9 -suckling s-ucking
    I Ki 21:5- sullen -sad
    I Tim 3:11 -temperate -sober
    Ps 55:8 -tempest -storm
    Hos 4:13- terebinth- elms
    2 Ki 7:10 -tethered -tied
    Lk 3:16- thong- latchet
    Is 55:13 -thornbush -thorn
    Ps 81:7 -thundercloud -thunder
    2 Tim 1:7 -timidity -fear
    Is 1:31- tinder- tow
    Rev 12:15- torrent -flood
    Ecc 4:6 -tranquillity- quietness
    Phil 4:7 -transcends- passeth
    Ezek 17:10 -transplanted- planted
    Song 7:5 -tresses -galleries
    1 Sam 14:19- tumult -noise
    Gen 49:4 -turbulent unstable
    Pro 28:16 -tyrannical -oppressor
    Is 54:14 -tyranny -oppression
    2 Ki 19:6 -underlings -servants
    2 Ki 24:1 -vassal- servant
    Job 15:25 -vaunts -strengtheneth
    Job 20:23 -vent -cast
    Song 1:16- verdant -green
    Ezra 3:10 -vestments -apparel
    Ps 112:10- vexed -grieved
    Num 34:5 -wadi -river
    1 Sam 15:2- waylaid -laid wait for
    Hosea 14:4- waywardness- backsliding
    Joel- weakling weak
    Job 5:13- wily --froward
    Is 29:6- windstorm -storm
    Gen 32:25- wrenched -out of joint
    Matt 21:41- wretches -wicked men
    Is 11:6 -yearling -fatling
     
  6. Christsoldier

    Christsoldier So, I'm an apologetic!

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    edjones,

    And, the point to your post is....... : )
     
  7. rkbo

    rkbo Member

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    Ed that must have taken you a long time to go through the two versions. Oooor did you copy and paste it from someone who did? Either way, are you saying that King James english is easier to understand and more precise?

    Hervey are you picking and choosing what you like and ignoring what you don't? Taking scholars out of context is something the JW's do. Am I making you steamed up yet?........sorry......kinda
     
  8. el44

    el44 New Member

    16
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    Hi,I don't know the meaning of most of those words so can't really comment on the use of them to understand scripture.
    I have learned that the Word of God is opened up for those who want to understand it to get to know Jesus.Any help from other books is great just as more than one Bible is for seeing a different translation.Makes things quicker,but I believe the Word is such that all the things needed to undrstand the Word are already there.
    I get a little on edge when presented with an idea backed up by other books telling me what this scripture means,without the backup being out of the Bible.
    I'm kind of a Him'n me and my Bible kinda guy.I'm more than willing to listen to teachings,preachings and the like,but ultimtely it's Him'n me and my Bible that are the final judge as there is alot of stuff written in books,sang in songs,and preached and teached right out of the Bible that I don't believe for a minute.
    I think the Word is more of a doing thing,and once doing understanding follows.Not like a lottery....more like seedtime and harvest.
     
  9. edjones

    edjones Active Member

    699
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    Many in our day say, "Well, we have to have a new version, because we have to have a Bible that we can understand today. The children struggle with the King James. We need something easy for them to understand. Bla...Bla...Bla..."

    This simply is not true. Harvard University analyzed various versions of the Bible, and they found the King James Bible was written at an 6th grade reading level. They found the NIV was written at the eleventh grade reading level. And all the other versions would require a college education for a complete comprehension. That is right, the Living Bible requires a college education for complete comprehension. Any sixth grader can read the King James Bible.

    Also, the new versions have many more multi-type syllable words than does the KJV. They also have several more words that are three and four syllables than does the KJV.

    Using the Fleisher/Kincaid Scale, Harvard University determined that the King James Bible is the easiest of all the Bibles in the English language to read.
     
  10. rkbo

    rkbo Member

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    sorry ed I don't believe that the KJV is easier to read than the new translations. I know of no one ecept yourself that thinks it is.

    God knows how to preserve his word even in the new versions.
     
  11. edjones

    edjones Active Member

    699
    +0
    God

    The Source of Spiritual Understanding


    The Bible leaves NO DOUBT that understanding is NOT a matter of "updated language" or "better translation". Understanding comes from God, Who gives it to or withholds it or withdraws it from men on the basis of what they do with His word.


    The inspiration of the Lord giveth understanding, Job tells us Job 32:8. Understanding is not produced by an updated translation; by faith we understand, Heb 11:3! Where does such faith come from? From the word of God Rom. 10:17 ...he that heareth reproof getteth understandingProv 15:32. The word comes first, not the understanding.


    For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding, Solomon wrote in Prov 2:6. Understanding comes from God, not "my language' or "updated translations." David was completely fluent in "the original Hebrew," yet he asked God, Give me understanding Ps 119:34, 73, 125, 169.


    God demands reception of the words before He grants understanding.
    Paul prayed for God to give others understanding. God provides that understanding through His word, which is breathed out of His mouth: Through thy precepts I get understanding, David discovered after asking for understanding Ps 119:104. Some disciples discovered that same truth on the road to Emmaus Luke 24:45. Even the simple-minded can receive understanding from God's word Ps 19:7, because The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding to the simple Ps 119:130. Today, people demand understanding before a person receives the words of God; God demands reception of the words before He grants understanding.


    Perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? Jesus once asked His apostles Mark 8:17 Sin and the hardening of the heart can prevent a person's understanding the word of God. People can have their understanding darkened because they are ignorant of God's word Eph 4:8 -- yet people would claim that lack of understanding produces the ignorance and not vice versa. God removes understanding from teachers who reject His word I Timothy 1:9, hiding their heart from understanding, Job 17:4. When God removes a man's understanding, an updated translation does not restore it.
     
  12. Navigator

    Navigator Pizzagator...

    337
    +1
    Protestant
    Can we get a cite??

    Please read this link: Bible Translations

    They have the following 'grade levels' for the various translations:

    NIV - 7.8
    NiRV - 2.9 (a children's version)
    KJV - 12..0
    NKJV - 9.0
    NLT - 6.3

    (I'll note that the information for these scores come from the publisher's.)

    Is this just more KJV-Only ULs cut and pasted?
     
  13. Navigator

    Navigator Pizzagator...

    337
    +1
    Protestant
    I did my own study...

    Cutting and pasting the first chapter of Genesis into Microsoft Word, I can use the Grammar checker to give me a 'Flesh-Kincaid Reading Level'. The following are the results:

    NIV: 5.2
    KJV: 7.3
    NLT: 3.0
    NASB: 4.7

    I'll grant that perhaps the first chapter of Genesis doesn't give a good reading of the whole translation, but that was my selected sample. I'm more than willing to repeat this experiment with any chapter any one chooses, and with any versions that I have available to me.

    Peace.
     
  14. edjones

    edjones Active Member

    699
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    Jesus’ Own View of Scripture

    He believed in the Genesis account of creation
    Matthew 19:4-6; Mark 10:6-8

    He believed in the Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch
    Matthew 8:4; John 5:46; 7:19

    He believed in the historicity and universality of the Noahic Flood
    Matthew 24:37-39

    He believed in the historicity of Abraham
    John 8:56

    He believed in the historicity of Sodom and Gomorrah
    Matthew 10:15; 11:23-24

    He believed Lot’s wife was turned into a pillar of salt.
    Luke 17:32

    He believed God gave manna from heaven to Israel
    John 6:31,49,58

    He believed in the Davidic authorship of the Psalms
    Matthew 22:43

    He believed in the historicity of Jonah and the whale
    Matthew 12:39-41

    He believed in the Danielic authorship of Daniel
    Matthew 24:15

    He believed in the unity of the book of Isaiah
    Matthew 13:14-15; Mark 7:6; John 12:38-41

    He believed the Jews had a history of rejecting God’s Word
    Luke 11:47-51

    He accepted the Old Testament Jewish canon,
    but rejected the Apocrypha
    Luke 24:44

    He scolded the Sadducees for their ignorance of Scripture
    Matthew 22:29

    He taught that every word of Scripture proceeded from God
    Matthew 4:4

    He taught the doctrine of the preservation of Scripture
    Matthew 5:17-18; 24:35; Luke 6:17

    He taught that the Old Testament Scriptures pointed to Him
    Luke 24:27,44

    He taught that man will be judged by God’s Word
    John 12:47-48

    He taught the absolute authority of Scripture
    John 10:34-36

    He pre-authenticated the New Testament writings as Scripture
    John 14:26; 16:12-13

    He never corrected or criticized Scripture,
    even though He did not possess the original autographs
    John 17:17



    He never involved Himself in higher or lower criticism or attempted to recover the original autographs.

    He either knew Scripture was the Word of God and said it was, did not know if Scripture was the
    Word of God or not and said it was, or knew Scripture was not the Word of God and said it was anyway. The first option is the whole truth of the matter.

    Those who claim to be followers of the Lord Jesus Christ ought to hold the same high view of Scripture that He held. What right do they have to hold any other view? Obviously, no right at all.
     
  15. Navigator

    Navigator Pizzagator...

    337
    +1
    Protestant
    Hmmm... Jesus wrote (figuratively of course) Scripture... (or at least inspired the authors...)

    and phew... thank goodness, I have a high view of Scripture...

    care to respond to the grade level question you brought up?
     
  16. edjones

    edjones Active Member

    699
    +0
    TheKing James
    Version is founded squarely on the Textus Receptus, which is in 90-95%
    agreement with the five thousand extant Greek manuscripts. But the Westcott
    and Hort text is in disagreement with them just about as much, and is
    founded upon two of the worst of texts, Codex Vaticanus and Codex
    Sinaiticus. Thus if you reject or look down upon the KJV, and settle for a
    mutilated Bible, you go ahead, but count me out. I do not say that you
    cannot profit from reading other versions. You can. But if they are based
    on the Westcott and Hort text, they are immediately suspect and you should
    be mighty careful that you check that version with the KJV as closely as
    possible.

    Now practically all versions of the Scriptures today, with exception to the
    King James, are based upon the Westcott and Hort Greek text.
     
  17. Navigator

    Navigator Pizzagator...

    337
    +1
    Protestant
    That was a fair post...

    didn't equate anyone with a Nicolatian, didn't call into question anyone's faith, allowed for personal conviction and put forth an argument to follow (W&H texts, versus the Majority texts).

    You've come a long way ed... keep up the good work.

    Peace.
     
  18. edjones

    edjones Active Member

    699
    +0
    Study your Bible WITH the help of the Holy Spirit.
    You don't need any 'outside sources' -
    you need to the Holy Spirit and
    the Holy Spirit will work directly with you WITHIN the scriptures.
    Is 28:9: Whom shall he teach knowledge?
    and whom shall he make to understand doctrine?
    them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
    10: For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept;
    line upon line, line upon line;
    here a little, and there a little:

    1Cor:2:13
    Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth,
    but which the Holy Ghost teacheth;
    comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

    1Cor:2:14
    But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:
    for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them,
    because they are spiritually discerned.

    We need spiritual guidance
    and that spiritual guidance comes from the KJV 1611 Bible!
     
  19. Navigator

    Navigator Pizzagator...

    337
    +1
    Protestant
    Actually, I believe our spiritual guidance come from the Holy Spirit... am I wrong?
     
  20. edjones

    edjones Active Member

    699
    +0
    Study your Bible WITH the help of the Holy Spirit.
    You don't need any 'outside sources' -
    you need to the Holy Spirit and
    the Holy Spirit will work directly with you WITHIN the scriptures.
     
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