Rosary

[ZooMom]

Joe said: I figure that she was probably the closest one to Jesus by reason of their mother-son relationship.

Then Refomationist said: Is this supported biblically? How did you come to this conclusion? Is it because of your own relationship with your mother?

This caught my attention, so I'd like to offer some Scripture for thought, even if I get kicked for stepping on the Protestant playground.

I believe that Mary and Christ shared an incredible bond.

First example. I think this is evident in Scripture re: the prophecy of Simeon over the infant Jesus.

Luke 2:34 Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: "This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against,
35 so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too."

Why include that last bit of the prophecy? She already knew who her Child was. Wouldn't any mother be expected to experience grief over the sufferings of her child? Simeon was telling her that Jesus would suffer, and (duh) it might just bother her a bit. I don't think so. A sword would pierce her soul. What are the ramifications of that, do you think?


Second example. The wedding feast at Cana. Mary goes to her Son and tells Him that the wine is gone. He gets the gist right away and says, no, it isn't yet time. Well, apparently, His mom knew that it was indeed time. How? Let's ponder that for a minute.

OK. Minute's up. I'll ask two questions. Did He refuse her? And did she behave as if He might?

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by ZooMom
This caught my attention, so I'd like to offer some Scripture for thought, even if I get kicked for stepping on the Protestant playground.

This forum is for all Christians.  We welcome your insight. 

I believe that Mary and Christ shared an incredible bond.

Me too. 

First example. I think this is evident in Scripture re: the prophecy of Simeon over the infant Jesus.

Luke 2:34 Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: "This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against,
35 so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too."

Why include that last bit of the prophecy? She already knew who her Child was. Wouldn't any mother be expected to experience grief over the sufferings of her child? Simeon was telling her that Jesus would suffer, and (duh) it might just bother her a bit. I don't think so. A sword would pierce her soul. What are the ramifications of that, do you think?

You don't think so what?  Not following you there.  I don't have a clue as to the ramifications of that for Mary.  I imagine she was even more hurt because she knew Him in a way that we never did.  What do you think the ramifications were?

Second example. The wedding feast at Cana. Mary goes to her Son and tells Him that the wine is gone. He gets the gist right away and says, no, it isn't yet time. Well, apparently, His mom knew that it was indeed time. How? Let's ponder that for a minute.

OK. Minute's up. I'll ask two questions. Did He refuse her? And did she behave as if He might?

No He didn't refuse her.  And no, she didn't behave as if He might.

Now, please answer a question for me.  You said, "Mary goes to her Son and tells Him that the wine is gone. He gets the gist right away and says, no, it isn't yet time. Well, apparently, His mom knew that it was indeed time."  What confuses me about this everytime anyone posts this reference is that they seem to imply that Jesus (God, omnipotent, perfectly righteous) says one thing and then Mary (a created being) basically overrides Him and tells Him, "No.  You're wrong.  It is time.  Go do what I said."  Are you implying that Jesus was wrong and it was time, even though He said it wasn't?

God bless

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by Reformationist
Now, please answer a question for me.  You said, "Mary goes to her Son and tells Him that the wine is gone. He gets the gist right away and says, no, it isn't yet time. Well, apparently, His mom knew that it was indeed time."  What confuses me about this everytime anyone posts this reference is that they seem to imply that Jesus (God, omnipotent, perfectly righteous) says one thing and then Mary (a created being) basically overrides Him and tells Him, "No.  You're wrong.  It is time.  Go do what I said."  Are you implying that Jesus was wrong and it was time, even though He said it wasn't?

I also have a problem with this. I don't think that Mary could "order Jesus around". That just doesn't make any sense, because she would be telling God what He should be doing. He already knows what He's doing. I don't think that Mary could ever scold a perfect Jesus, who is actually God in the flesh.

 

[KC Catholic]

But...could it be possible that "God, the father" was working through Mary to jumpstart Jesus "God, the Son" on his ministry? Jesus was BOTH God and Man.

Just a thought.

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by KC Catholic
But...could it be possible that "God, the father" was working through Mary to jumpstart Jesus "God, the Son" on his ministry? Jesus was BOTH God and Man.

Just a thought.

Could you elaborate? Are you saying that Jesus somehow disobeyed the Father at first?

 

[KC Catholic]

Originally posted by humblejoe
Could you elaborate? Are you saying that Jesus somehow disobeyed the Father at first?

No, I am not suggesting that. I was just kind of thinking out loud from your POVs.

Personally, I think that Jesus was a faithful Jew who followed the 10 Commandments, specifically "Honor Thy Mother and Thy Father - by honoring his mothers request. IMHO, I think its just that simple - maybe I am wrong.

Did the request cause him to perform his fisrt miracle and signal the start of his ministry? Definitely.

You can see it from two points...by obeying the Fathers law (Honor Thy Mother and Father) it can be said that God's will was done through Jesus' obeying of the commandments - which honors his father, God by keeping his laws and doing his will AND starting him on his ministry.

But it also shows that Jesus honored his mother by answering her request which started him on his ministry.

I guess you could give credit to Mary for the assist since God's will was done and the law was followed.

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by KC Catholic
No, I am not suggesting that. I was just kind of thinking out loud from your POVs.

Personally, I think that Jesus was a faithful Jew who followed the 10 Commandments, specifically "Honor Thy Mother and Thy Father - by honoring his mothers request. IMHO, I think its just that simple - maybe I am wrong.

Did the request cause him to perform his fisrt miracle and signal the start of his ministry? Definitely.

You can see it from two points...by obeying the Fathers law (Honor Thy Mother and Father) it can be said that God's will was done through Jesus' obeying of the commandments - which honors his father, God by keeping his laws and doing his will AND starting him on his ministry.

But it also shows that Jesus honored his mother by answering her request which started him on his ministry.

I guess you could give credit to Mary for the assist since God's will was done and the law was followed.

I've always had a bit of trouble with this passage. It's hard to understand what it means. I think that, perhaps, God could have been using Mary to initiate Jesus' ministry, but I still feel inclined to give that credit to the Father's Sovereignty, and not to Mary's actions.

 

[KC Catholic]

I guess in the end..Jesus performed the miracle and started his ministry and glorified God by doing God's will and following God's law.

 

[ZooMom]

What confuses me about this everytime anyone posts this reference is that they seem to imply that Jesus (God, omnipotent, perfectly righteous) says one thing and then Mary (a created being) basically overrides Him and tells Him, "No. You're wrong. It is time. Go do what I said." Are you implying that Jesus was wrong and it was time, even though He said it wasn't?

Ok. First, no I don't think Jesus was wrong, I think He was reluctant and afraid. He knew once that ball started rolling where it would end up. *MY* point, however, was how did Mary know it was time? Do you think she was in the regular habit of asking miracles from her Son whenever they hit a small snag? Was it possible that she was fully aware that running out of wine was inconvenient and embarrassing for the hosts but hardly a matter of life and death? Why did she ask for the miracle just *then*? And come to think of it, she didn't really ask did she? It's more like she was delivering a message. And she didn't tell Him, "Do what I said." She turned and told the servants, "Do whatever He tells you." I'll just ask again, how did Mary know it was time?

 

[VOW]

My observation of the first miracle at the Wedding at Cana is this:

WHY was it so important to be memorialized in Gospel? Why was MARY'S role immortalized so?

Now, mind you, the story could have been written that Jesus attended a wedding, He noticed the wine ran out, so He turned water into wine. We know that this miracle is significant in many ways. For starters, it was His first, the very beginning of His ministry.

Second, Jesus was associated with WINE. Wine plays a huge part of His life, and indeed His death. It's very fitting that his first miracle was with wine.

But see.... the Gospels are truly quite SHORT when it comes to explaining the life and death and resurrection of our Lord. We are so fortunate that we even have these precious words, that they survived for 2000 years so we can hold them in our hands today. The writers had to use an economy of words, to get the message across the generations! What we've got is the ESSENCE of Jesus, boiled down to the necessities.

And in this essence, we have the beginning of His ministry, and it begins when HIS MOTHER goes to Him and says, "They have no more wine." And Jesus answers, "It is not yet My time."

Why even bother with the dialogue?

Does it even MATTER that Mary was there, that she spoke to Her son? That she appeared to contradict Him?

Why is that conversation even there?

And when He tells her, "It's not yet My time," does she apologize for bothering Him? Does she back away, say, "Excuse me," and that's it?

This is the LAST time we even read of Mary's words in the New Testament.

Why?



Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by VOW
My observation of the first miracle at the Wedding at Cana is this:

WHY was it so important to be memorialized in Gospel? Why was MARY'S role immortalized so?

Now, mind you, the story could have been written that Jesus attended a wedding, He noticed the wine ran out, so He turned water into wine. We know that this miracle is significant in many ways. For starters, it was His first, the very beginning of His ministry.

Second, Jesus was associated with WINE. Wine plays a huge part of His life, and indeed His death. It's very fitting that his first miracle was with wine.

But see.... the Gospels are truly quite SHORT when it comes to explaining the life and death and resurrection of our Lord. We are so fortunate that we even have these precious words, that they survived for 2000 years so we can hold them in our hands today. The writers had to use an economy of words, to get the message across the generations! What we've got is the ESSENCE of Jesus, boiled down to the necessities.

And in this essence, we have the beginning of His ministry, and it begins when HIS MOTHER goes to Him and says, "They have no more wine." And Jesus answers, "It is not yet My time."

Why even bother with the dialogue?

Does it even MATTER that Mary was there, that she spoke to Her son? That she appeared to contradict Him?

Why is that conversation even there?

And when He tells her, "It's not yet My time," does she apologize for bothering Him? Does she back away, say, "Excuse me," and that's it?

This is the LAST time we even read of Mary's words in the New Testament.

Why?



Peace be with you,
~VOW

Although somewhat speculative for my taste, those are some good points to ponder. Now I have a couple of questions...

Where is Mary's Assumption and Coronation in Scripture? Where does it say "and Mary was taken up into Heaven, body and soul, and thereafter made Queen of Heaven"? Where is the bed of flowers recorded that sprung up at the location where Mary ascended? Surely, these events are at least as significant as a single miracle at a wedding feast... so where are they?

I know these are a bit tangential, but I believe they are relevant.

 

[VOW]

To Joe:

The Assumption is based upon Sacred Tradition.

But another thing to consider, there has never been ANY location claimed to be the burial place of Mary. It is pretty well assured that Peter's bones have been found in Rome. People have even located the tomb where Jesus was buried after the Crucifixion. Other Biblical burial places are well-known in the Holy Land. But as far as I know, NO place has been determined to be Mary's grave.

You have to go back through the Old Testament, and see the comparisons that scholars have done, showing Mary to be the New Eve, and the Ark of the New Covenant. These are the Scriptural Testimony used by the Church to proclaim Mary's Immaculate Conception. And the Immaculate Conception was such a profound determination, it follows that Mary would not have left a corrupted body here on Earth. That was the way it was explained to me by a priest.

Mary isn't the only person ever taken directly to Heaven. I believe it was Elijah who rode a fiery chariot from Earth to Heaven, so it's not a new concept.

Her coronation in Heaven comes from Revelation. And again, that is a matter of interpretation of Scripture.

But Joe, we've talked of these before. And remember, I told you, all in good time. God doesn't always give us every answer when we demand it. He has His own timetable for you, Joe, so if you are still uncertain about the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, just set those aside for now. Don't let something become a stumbling block, or an excuse.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Caedmon]

I'll tell you what... having all these different schools of interpretation hanging around can drive a person crazy after a while. It's very similar to what I experienced in my literature courses. As soon as you had become "perfectly" convinced of one school's position, *blammo*, here comes another school with powerful arguments waltzing onto the scene. And the thing is, sometimes the messages are so different or independent, that it becomes next to impossible to compare them for validity. Arrrggghhhh...

 

[KC Catholic]

Originally posted by humblejoe
I'll tell you what... having all these different schools of interpretation hanging around can drive a person crazy after a while. It's very similar to what I experienced in my literature courses. As soon as you had become "perfectly" convinced of one school's position, *blammo*, here comes another school with powerful arguments waltzing onto the scene. And the thing is, sometimes the messages are so different or independent, that it becomes next to impossible to compare them for validity. Arrrggghhhh...

To me, Catholicism is like Paul Harvey, I finally get the "rest of the story." It's very deep sometimes, but that is ok - it enriches our knowledge and our faith. It's why we Catholics here defend our faith so strongly - not because we feel we are "right", but because we, too, have discovered that there is much more to the mystery of our faith than we realized. And we want to share it with others so we all grow in our faith.

Yes, much has been revealed in Sacred Tradition and through Sacred Scripture, but its like peeling an onion - there are many, many layers - with Christ being the center.

 

[Reformationist]

Hello everyone!

Originally posted by ZooMom
Ok. First, no I don't think Jesus was wrong, I think He was reluctant and afraid. He knew once that ball started rolling where it would end up.

Hmmm...this is very strange to me.  Is it the opinion of the Catholic church that Jesus was reluctant to do the Father's Will or that He was afraid of the very thing for which He was sent?  That, in my opinion, makes Jesus very weak in His faith that God will deliver Him and make Him the first born among many.

*MY* point, however, was how did Mary know it was time?

Sorry ZooMom but it still sounds as if you are implying that, though Jesus said that it wasn't yet time, Mary knew better than He.  Doesn't that strike you as limiting to Jesus and elevating Mary to a place of godly faith above that of Jesus Himself?

Do you think she was in the regular habit of asking miracles from her Son whenever they hit a small snag?

No.

Was it possible that she was fully aware that running out of wine was inconvenient and embarrassing for the hosts but hardly a matter of life and death?

Yes.

Why did she ask for the miracle just *then*?

Where is it that she "asks for the miracle, at all, much less, then?"

And come to think of it, she didn't really ask did she?

How did you take it?  Did she tell Jesus something to the effect of "No, you're wrong.  It is time."  See, you can't have it both ways.  Either she was subjecting herself to His Divine Will and was asking Him to help, or, she was telling Jesus that He was wrong and He should do what she said.  I don't mean this in a bad or accusatory way.  I just don't see any other lines of reasoning.  Do you?

It's more like she was delivering a message.

From whom to whom?  You make it sound as if Mary was privy to information from the Father that Jesus wasn't.  Is that your stance?

I'll just ask again, how did Mary know it was time?

Is there something in the text that identifies, first off, that Jesus' went directly and changed the water to wine?  Maybe there was a period of time between Mary telling Jesus that there was no wine and Jesus doing something about it.  I'd be a bit more apt to believe that if Jesus said to Mary, "Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come" that He was basically telling her that His Will will be done at the appointed time, that time being appointed by God.  Jesus knew God's Will.  I don't think this was an issue of Jesus doing God's Will by "obeying His mother."  I think this is an issue of God's sovereignty dictating that, despite what Mary was worried about, the Lord had already made provision to manifest His glory.  To me, there is too much emphasis being put on what Mary said than on the righteousness of Christ.  If it's time, Christ knows it.  If it's not, Mary saying, or implying, that it is time is not going to change the immutableness of a totally righteous, Divine being.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by KC Catholic
But...could it be possible that "God, the father" was working through Mary to jumpstart Jesus "God, the Son" on his ministry? Jesus was BOTH God and Man.

Just a thought.

This line of reasoning that Jesus needed a jumpstart to do the Will of His Father seems so strange to me.  Regardless of who God uses to facilitate His Will, don't you guys believe that, not only did Jesus know what that Will is, that He did it every time?

It just seems to me that you guys are saying, or implying, that Mary was more in touch with God's Will that His own Son, God Himself, was.  Strange.

God bless

 

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by KC Catholic
Did the request cause him to perform his fisrt miracle and signal the start of his ministry? Definitely.

Okay.  Let me address this logically.  Was the miracle at Cana God's Will?  If so, would Jesus know about it?  If so, would He do that which was His Father's Will?  If so, was He doing the miracle at the time appointed by His Father?  If so, was Jesus performing the miracle because of Mary's request, or because it was His Father's Will?

Sorry bro.  All of those seem pretty self evident.  I would answer those yes, yes, yes, yes, and because it was God's Will.  I don't believe that Mary being the one to ask, or inform Jesus of the wine shortage, had anything to do with it.  Do you think there's even the remotest possibility that Jesus would do something that wasn't God's Will?  If not, then why would you attribute the reason for Jesus turning the water to wine to the request made by Mary and not that it was the Will of God?  How did her asking have anything to do with it?

I guess you could give credit to Mary for the assist since God's will was done and the law was followed.

That's akin to giving yourself some credit when you are obedient to God's Word.  Don't you realize that the only thing that enables you to ever obey Him is His grace?

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by VOW
WHY was it so important to be memorialized in Gospel? Why was MARY'S role immortalized so?

What role?  What is it that you glean from the text that shows that Mary did anything more than just tell her Lord that they were out of wine?  Don't you think it's possible that that event was orchestrated as opportunity for Jesus to display His Divinity, just as with Pharaoh, and just as with Joseph being captured and ending up as the second most powerful person in the civilized world?  It's about God's Will always being done.  I don't see that Mary's role here in this passage is significant at all.  It seems your focus is in the wrong place. 

And in this essence, we have the beginning of His ministry, and it begins when HIS MOTHER goes to Him and says, "They have no more wine." And Jesus answers, "It is not yet My time."

Right.  Did she contradict Him?  You seem to make the assumption that because Jesus goes and deals with the issue that, one, He does it right away, and two, that He does it because of something Mary said.  How do you come to that conclusion from the text?

Why even bother with the dialogue?

I would say that it was to show the reader that Jesus is there to do the Father's Will, not the will of man, or in this case, woman. 

Does it even MATTER that Mary was there, that she spoke to Her son?

I don't read it as being very significant, no.

That she appeared to contradict Him?

Where?

God bless

 

[VOW]

To Ref:

The dialogue is significant in that Mary goes to her Son, tells Him the hosts are out of wine, and then He tells her, "It is not yet my time."

She doesn't apologize. She instead, in APPARENT CONTRADICTION, goes to the servants and says, "Do whatever He tells you to."

Now, put yourself in that situation. If our Lord said to YOU, "It is not yet My time," what would you think? What would you do?

I know what I would think. I'd think, "Oops, sorry, didn't mean to disturb You." I'd feel rather embarassed, like I had intruded where I was not welcome.

I'd probably sneak out the back door and go home.

I SURE wouldn't go to the servants and tell them to expect Jesus to give them direction!


Peace,
~VOW

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by VOW
The dialogue is significant in that Mary goes to her Son, tells Him the hosts are out of wine, and then He tells her, "It is not yet my time."

She doesn't apologize. She instead, in APPARENT CONTRADICTION, goes to the servants and says, "Do whatever He tells you to."

This seems to be heavily peppered with your veneration of Mary.  Did Mary go to the servants and tell them, "My Son will be having you get some water together so that He can make some wine.  Make sure you do whatever He says?"  What is it that makes you feel like there is any, much less "apparant," contradiction?

To me, the admirable thing that Mary did was focused on Christ's Will instead of her own.  How do you know that Mary hadn't previously said something to the servants as to how to remedy the situation?  Maybe, that was a reference to her trusting that Jesus would do something about it, when it was "His time." 

Again, I ask, how do you glean, from the text, that Jesus even went straight away to deal with the wine issue?  If He had waited 5 hours would you still attribute His actions to the request of Mary?  How about 1 hour later?  How did you even come to the conclusion that He did the miracle because Mary told Him they were out of wine?  Obviously He had already planned to change the water into wine at an appointed time else He wouldn't have said, "My hour has not yet come."  Why do you feel that the credit for initiating the action should have anything to do with Mary?

God bless