Roommate Relations

[alfrodull]

How do I tactfully tell my roommate that if she continues her behavior, she is likely to get raped?

She's a first-semester freshman, fresh out of an all-girl boarding school, and these first few weeks she's been going to a bunch of frat parties and coming home drunk every night. She flirts with every guy she sees when she's sober, so I can only imagine what she's like at these parties. A handful of freshman girls at my school get raped every year around this time by following this pattern.

We don't really talk at all (in fact, I'm pretty sure we annoy the heck out of each other) so I'm not sure it's any of my business. But still, I feel like she should know this info. Should I talk with her about it?

 

[DeathMagus]

I'd say it depends on whether you think she knows it already. If it seems likely that she's "heard it all before," then your comment will do nothing but annoy her and make living with her worse, without improving her situation. If she seems clueless, however, talk to her.

 

[alfrodull]

That's the thing; I don't know her well enough to know whether she's naive or just reckless. Although I guess implying that a person is naive, even if the implication is true, never goes over well either.

 

[simpletrust]

How about getting to know her first and then broaching the subject? Just my two cents Good luck with it.

 

[kimmye]

Encourage her to be careful, and pray for her safety.
However, I think your school needs to have a serious talk with the male population. There is not way 5 girls should be molested in a year. That's just wrong. No matter what a female wears or where she goes, it is never her fault if she is abused, and males are never justified in forcing a woman. Guys need to realize that you are not "asking for it" if you flirt with them. They need to learn self-control, and understand that there are serious penalties for destroying a young woman in that manner.

 

[DeathMagus]

No matter what a female wears or where she goes, it is never her fault if she is abused, and males are never justified in forcing a woman.

Whoa...slow down buddy... I think you're in the process of committing a false dichotomy...in which it's either all one way or all another. While men are never justified in abusing women, and those that do are usually scum, it would be premature to say, as you have, that women have a free pass to do irresponsible things.

Guys need to realize that you are not "asking for it" if you flirt with them.

And at the same time, women need to realize that being overly flirtatious and teasing is immature, dangerous, and, frankly, stupid, especially given the knowledge that there are men out there who will take advantage.

They need to learn self-control, and understand that there are serious penalties for destroying a young woman in that manner.

Sure. And women, likewise, need to learn that there are serious consequences to their irresponsible behaviors.

 

[kimmye]

Whoa...slow down buddy... I think you're in the process of committing a false dichotomy...in which it's either all one way or all another. While men are never justified in abusing women, and those that do are usually scum, it would be premature to say, as you have, that women have a free pass to do irresponsible things.


And at the same time, women need to realize that being overly flirtatious and teasing is immature, dangerous, and, frankly, stupid, especially given the knowledge that there are men out there who will take advantage.



Sure. And women, likewise, need to learn that there are serious consequences to their irresponsible behaviors.

Be careful. It's things like this that make men feel like they have a right to a woman's body, and they can do whatever they feel. A woman is free to wear whatever she pleases and go wherever she wishes as longs as she has not broken any laws. There are lots of spare bunks in prison for men who feel they way that you have articulated.

 

[alfrodull]

Be careful. It's things like this that make men feel like they have a right to a woman's body, and they can do whatever they feel. A woman is free to wear whatever she pleases and go wherever she wishes as longs as she has not broken any laws. There are lots of spare bunks in prison for men who feel they way that you have articulated.

Yes, she is free to do so, but she should be aware that men may interpret these actions to mean something she does not intend.

Men are turned on by flirting and provocative clothing, and likewise, this is how some women send the signal that they are open to certain activities. It follows that women who are not open to these activities should consider the message they are sending when choosing to flirt or dress provocatively.

Is it right for guys to take advantage? Of course not. But that doesn't mean that girls are totally without responsibility for their own safety.

 

[Rhamiel]

why be tactfull? you two already don't like each other so just be frank, "if you keep this up you will get raped" maybe a forceful comment coming from someone who she is not friends with will be enough to snap her out of LA-LA Land and back into the real world where your actions have consequences

 

[DeathMagus]

Be careful. It's things like this that make men feel like they have a right to a woman's body, and they can do whatever they feel.

I call BS - I implied nothing of the sort.

A woman is free to wear whatever she pleases and go wherever she wishes as longs as she has not broken any laws.

This is quite true. Just don't expect much sympathy if you flaunt yourself rediculously in today's society and act like you're not partly to blame for what may happen. Does a man have the right to do something if a woman is flaunting herself? No. Is a crying shame if he does? Yes. Is she an idiot for doing so? Yes.

There are lots of spare bunks in prison for men who feel they way that you have articulated.

It's a crime to feel that women stupid enough to act irresponsibly are perhaps partially to blame for the results of their actions?

 

[kimmye]

I call BS - I implied nothing of the sort.

This is quite true. Just don't expect much sympathy if you flaunt yourself rediculously in today's society and act like you're not partly to blame for what may happen. Does a man have the right to do something if a woman is flaunting herself? No. Is a crying shame if he does? Yes. Is she an idiot for doing so? Yes.

It's a crime to feel that women stupid enough to act irresponsibly are perhaps partially to blame for the results of their actions?

I can't believe you just said that, but I don't really expect anything better from men. If you knew the absolute trauma and torment women who are molested go through, you would never say that.
A woman should be careful for her own safety, but it is NEVER her fault (not even partially) if she is raped. Men are animals.

 

[crombiegirl27]

If she's in college she should be fully aware the risks she's taking. Maybe before she goes out you could say something like, "Please be safe tonight" so if something does happen you did your part and gave your warning.

Pray for her.

 

[DeathMagus]

I can't believe you just said that, but I don't really expect anything better from men. If you knew the absolute trauma and torment women who are molested go through, you would never say that.

So, not only do you demonstrate an inability to think in anything other than black-white, all-or-nothing terms, but you also presume that I am completely ignorant at the trauma women go through. It's a pity, really, that you are so presumptuous.

Additionally, your comment about men suggests that you have an irrational loathing for all men, most likely because of your own unfortunate experiences with a minuscule portion of them. While I'm sorry for your bad experiences, you shouldn't use that as an excuse for your sexist attitudes.

A woman should be careful for her own safety, but it is NEVER her fault (not even partially) if she is raped.

Sorry, I live in the real world, not your fairy-tale flying castle land. If the road is full of crazy drivers who will hit you if you get too close, you stay away from the road. You can't expect to go dancing right next to said road and then cry "I was completely faultless!" when you get hit. Despite the fact that the drivers are being complete scum, you still share blame for putting yourself in a situation that you know is dangerous. If I go walking around certain areas of Chicago after dark, and I get beaten, mugged, or even killed - guess what? It's partly my fault, because I was being an idiot.

You don't seem to recognize that multiple parties can share blame.

Men are animals.

Your general, absolutist statements only serve to weaken your argument and demonstrate a lack of desire to ponder issues on any meaningful level.

 

[simpletrust]

Okay I understand this is a really touchy subject but I think both sides of this argument need to take a break because obviously neither of you is going to convince the other.

 

[DeathMagus]

Okay I understand this is a really touchy subject but I think both sides of this argument need to take a break because obviously neither of you is going to convince the other.

Yar! But are yee unawares tha' the major'ty of arguments on this site are fer tha' fence-sitters? </pirate>



But seriously - I think we should be alright so long as we all can maintain our senses of humor.

 

[kimmye]

So, not only do you demonstrate an inability to think in anything other than black-white, all-or-nothing terms, but you also presume that I am completely ignorant at the trauma women go through. It's a pity, really, that you are so presumptuous.

Um yeah, this is a black and white issue. Either rape is wrong, or men are justified in abusing and dehumanizing females in this manner. Based on your comments, I have to assume that you are either unaware of or insensitive to the trauma that molested women face-- other wise you would never have said it is partially their fault in certain situations.
I don't know if you are aware that women in long dresses are raped, women coming from church are raped, little girls are raped, prostitutes are raped, old women are raped-- They are not raped because they are wearing revealing clothes or because they are sl#ts Rape is about power and brutishness on the part of the male. Again, women have the right-- as citizens of the United States to wear whatever they feel is appropriate and whatever is comfortable for them, as long as they are not breaking any laws.
If a man is aroused, there are several thousand willing women he can get intimate with. He is NEVER justified to rape a woman. And again, clothes are not the issue, nor is it being provocative. If a woman dresses in revealing clothes she is no less human and not less someone's daughter or sister or wife-- she deserves the same sympathy you would give to an old lady if she was also abused.


Additionally, your comment about men suggests that you have an irrational loathing for all men, most likely because of your own unfortunate experiences with a minuscule portion of them. While I'm sorry for your bad experiences, you shouldn't use that as an excuse for your sexist attitudes.

Yeah I am sexist And guess what else, your beliefs are held by a significant portion of the male population. you don't have to be the kind of scum who would rape a woman-- but picking up for men like that, or being insensitive towards women who have been abused-- is really not that different. and don't be "sorry" for anything-- your sympathy I can do without. I'm not using anything as an "excuse" so don't you dare say that-- again an indication of your insensitivity, but it comes with the territory.

Sorry, I live in the real world, not your fairy-tale flying castle land. If the road is full of crazy drivers who will hit you if you get too close, you stay away from the road. You can't expect to go dancing right next to said road and then cry "I was completely faultless!" when you get hit. Despite the fact that the drivers are being complete scum, you still share blame for putting yourself in a situation that you know is dangerous. If I go walking around certain areas of Chicago after dark, and I get beaten, mugged, or even killed - guess what? It's partly my fault, because I was being an idiot.

Ummm, raping someone is not the same as robbing someone or hitting them with a car. You have destroyed the person-- not only physically, but emotionally and mentally as well. You have robbed the person of an essential part of their being. How dare you say someone could have caused that unto themselves? Walking alone at night is unsafe, but it still doesn't give anyone the right to pick your pocket. Instead of trying to pass of some of the blame unto women, men must be taught to take responsibility for their actions. How can they be the supposed leaders of society and of the family, if they don't even have the self control to walk away from a woman who is not willing? Part of being a leader and of being an adult is accepting responsibility for your actions-- and recognizing they you are never justified in wronging a person even if you think they are at fault.
I live in the real world too, and I've experienced enough in my life to know that this is no fairytale-- enough also to know that any human being who seeks to destroy another and mar that person's future and their entire life-- deserves to be punished most severely. That person is never justified in the actions, and there is no excuse on the face of the earth that can absolve them-- even partially for their crimes (except of course, God's grace, but that's another story).


You don't seem to recognize that multiple parties can share blame.
Your general, absolutist statements only serve to weaken your argument and demonstrate a lack of desire to ponder issues on any meaningful level.

Lol. This is not an issue I am prepared to take any middle ground on. You either think it is absolutely wrong, or you think it's cool. I don't think there is a place for "oh, he shouldn't have done it-- but she was asking for it". So yeah, if I seem biased and unreasonable on this issue, that is because I am, and I'm proud of it. This is where my philosophy student's objectivity ends and my humanness begins. I will not see eye to eye with anyone who disagrees with me on this issue.

 

[DeathMagus]

Um yeah, this is a black and white issue. Either rape is wrong, or men are justified in abusing and dehumanizing females in this manner.

You are completely misrepresenting the issue. Of course rape is wrong, and of course men are not justified. Neither of those statements have anything to do with the wisdom of women pretending that they can act in whatever way they wish without consequence. Would that be ideal? Sure. Is that the way things are? No. There's idealism, and then there's naivety - you are advocating the latter.

Based on your comments, I have to assume that you are either unaware of or insensitive to the trauma that molested women face-- other wise you would never have said it is partially their fault in certain situations.

What on earth does trauma have to do with responsibility?

I don't know if you are aware that women in long dresses are raped, women coming from church are raped, little girls are raped, prostitutes are raped, old women are raped-- They are not raped because they are wearing revealing clothes or because they are sl#ts.

I am very well aware of this. If you read my posts at all, you should be very well aware that these situations were not of the kind I was referring to.

Rape is about power and brutishness on the part of the male. Again, women have the right-- as citizens of the United States to wear whatever they feel is appropriate and whatever is comfortable for them, as long as they are not breaking any laws.

Have I said they don't have that right? No. You're simply misrepresenting me once again.

If a man is aroused, there are several thousand willing women he can get intimate with. He is NEVER justified to rape a woman.

Gee...I had no idea. Except, once again, you distort the issue. The issue is not whether or not a man is justified in raping a woman, but rather whether women can be partially responsible by flaunting themselves or putting themselves in compromising situations.

Saying that some women have partial blame does not imply that the men are justified.

And again, clothes are not the issue, nor is it being provocative. If a woman dresses in revealing clothes she is no less human and not less someone's daughter or sister or wife-- she deserves the same sympathy you would give to an old lady if she was also abused.

So, am I to take from this that you dispute the very premise of this thread? Specifically, are you stating here that you don't think a woman is any more likely at all to be raped if she's dressing like a sl#t?

Yeah I am sexist

I like how you're proud of that... you just keep demonstrating yourself to be better and better in this thread...

And guess what else, your beliefs are held by a significant portion of the male population. you don't have to be the kind of scum who would rape a woman-- but picking up for men like that

Wrong again... I'm picking up for no man who rapes anybody. I simply refuse to let women off the hook when they make foolish choices.

, or being insensitive towards women who have been abused-- is really not that different. and don't be "sorry" for anything-- your sympathy I can do without. I'm not using anything as an "excuse" so don't you dare say that-- again an indication of your insensitivity, but it comes with the territory.

So to be sensitive, I have to not hold people accountable for their actions?

Ummm, raping someone is not the same as robbing someone or hitting them with a car. You have destroyed the person-- not only physically, but emotionally and mentally as well. You have robbed the person of an essential part of their being.

It's great how I specifically included being killed in my list of possible things I would be responsible for, because otherwise you might have me here. As it is, your convenient ignoring of that phrase lets you try to pretend that I equated being robbed to being raped.

How dare you say someone could have caused that unto themselves? Walking alone at night is unsafe, but it still doesn't give anyone the right to pick your pocket.

Sigh... and, once again, I never said it did. I'll put the following in a larger font, just to make sure you read it:

Partial blame for the woman != Justification for the man

You keep harping on "justification for the man" as if that was something I was debating. I believe my first post sums up my position on justification for men -

...men are never justified in abusing women...

Instead of trying to pass of some of the blame unto women, men must be taught to take responsibility for their actions.

How about men take complete responsibility for their actions, and women take complete responsibility for their actions.

How can they be the supposed leaders of society and of the family, if they don't even have the self control to walk away from a woman who is not willing? Part of being a leader and of being an adult is accepting responsibility for your actions-- and recognizing they you are never justified in wronging a person even if you think they are at fault.

Here we are in complete agreement.

I live in the real world too, and I've experienced enough in my life to know that this is no fairytale-- enough also to know that any human being who seeks to destroy another and mar that person's future and their entire life-- deserves to be punished most severely. That person is never justified in the actions, and there is no excuse on the face of the earth that can absolve them-- even partially for their crimes

We are also in agreement here - but you still seem to think that I'm somehow trying to justify men who abuse women.

Lol. This is not an issue I am prepared to take any middle ground on. You either think it is absolutely wrong, or you think it's cool.

How about I think it's absolutely wrong, and that women who flaunt themselves are idiots? Why must we pretend that this debate is about the morality of rape, when it very much is not?

I don't think there is a place for "oh, he shouldn't have done it-- but she was asking for it". So yeah, if I seem biased and unreasonable on this issue, that is because I am, and I'm proud of it. This is where my philosophy student's objectivity ends and my humanness begins.

So...humans are biased and unreasonable? That's the essence of your humanness? Excellent attitude.

I will not see eye to eye with anyone who disagrees with me on this issue.

Evidently.

 

[simpletrust]

Yar! But are yee unawares tha' the major'ty of arguments on this site are fer tha' fence-sitters? </pirate>



But seriously - I think we should be alright so long as we all can maintain our senses of humor.

To be honest, that looked more like a panicked injection of humour into the thread.

 

[DeathMagus]

To be honest, that looked more like a panicked injection of humour into the thread.

Why would I be panicked? I've broken no rules, nor have I been uncivil.

I don't lose sleep over what goes on in web threads.

 

[Rhamiel]

Men are animals.

kimmye that steped over the line, just because you and magus are in an argument don't drag the rest of us in there with him, that made you sound very sexist, man this thread derailed