Rome and the Roman Catholic Church

[williamcobbet]

By the third Century Rome was feeling the pains and aches of its civilization falling apart. It's soldiers were all of German, Slav, Frank, or other Northern European background. There were very few Roman soldiers to fill the ranks.

Roman citizens became debauched, crime was rampant.
There was only one religion of the many religions the Romans had that was stable. Christianity was stable. It's people were honest. Their Faith made it possible for them to even give their lives rather than renounce it.

Converts spread quickly. Many soldiers became Christians. Christianity spread to Britain, Northern Europe, Spain and Portugal, France, and North Africa..

Rome was dying from within. From all appearances it would go the way of the Summerians, Babilonians, Assyrians, and many more that had gone before them. It was akin to a self-destruct in which the only thing left was old cities sitting in a desert. However, something totally and completely remarkable happened. The Catholic Church took the lead in saving what was left of the empire.

This was the beginning of the Dark Ages. Rome, a modern, technical, highly developed civilization was crumbling. It's pieces were picked up by the Catholic Church and those that were converted to Catholicism.

It was during these Dark Ages (500 to 1000) that the Muslims invaded from the South. Germanic tribes invaded from the North. The Northmen invaded from the North also. The Roman Catholic Church, by the unity it molded in all of Catholic Europe defended Europe against every invader. It defeated every foe. Without the Catholic Church Europe would have been torn to pieces. It was a very dark time in all of Europe, however, they succeeded and came out of it as The Holy Roman Empire.

It is astonishing, even to this day, that Europe had survived.

Between 1000 and 1300 Europe and the Catholic Church had its golden age. Every place had it's own universities. Great Cathedrals were built all over Europe. Please note that I did not mention countries. At this time Europe didn't have any countries to speak of. It was all The Holy Roman Empire.

Everyone was Catholic. And why not? They defeated every foreign force that came at them. The Roman Catholic Church was their Church and they wouldn't have it any other way. They loved their Church.

During the 1400 -1500 there came a disintegration. Certainly not in the teachings of the Church, but in the people that controlled and ran the Church. Because of this there were those that wanted to revolt. And revolt they did.

Luther and Calvin were just the forerunners. What the early men of the Reformation did was to not only smack back at the illicit things going on in the Church, they also changed Church Teachings. Teachings that went back to the Apostles. Europe became a shambles. Half was Protestant and half was Catholic. After approximately 100 years of fighting both sides just stopped from exhaustion.

At this point in time we now have "countries" in Europe. We now have central banks. We now have legalized usury. We now have the start of great Capitalist Corporations. All this started after the Reformation by Protestants that were looking for a way to get rich. The Protestants were the wealthy of Europe. It was the Protestants that had their fingers on the power and authority that comes with that power.

There is one more big thing that came with the Reformation. Men were turned into slaves again. The Roman Civilization was run by slaves. With the coming of the Catholic Church during the Dark ages and afterwards was the elimination of slaves. Now slaves were coming back again. Probably the worst example of a slave country would be the Soviet Union. You see, Communism is the younger brother of Capitalism. With Communism your were a 100% slave. With Capitalism we are only "part slaves". We still have some freedom, but don't be late for work. You may not have a job the next day.

The Roman Catholic Church saved Europe in what can only be called a miracle. What took place can only be considered absolutely astonishing.
One may say that the Roman Empire never died and is with us now. But don't kid yourself, if it is still alive it would have to be all of the Western world being Catholic and operating on the Teachings of the Catholic Church.

williamcobbet

 

[ThomasAbel70]

Isn't it wonderful how God took His Church's enemies and converted them from the heart of The Empire?

Then used that which once persecuted His Church to become His Church's protector and defender and evangelizer!

Amen!

 

[williamcobbet]

Isn't it wonderful how God took His Church's enemies and converted them from the heart of The Empire?

Then used that which once persecuted His Church to become His Church's protector and defender and evangelizer!

Amen!

Amen

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

At this point in time we now have "countries" in Europe. We now have central banks. We now have legalized usury. We now have the start of great Capitalist Corporations. All this started after the Reformation by Protestants that were looking for a way to get rich. The Protestants were the wealthy of Europe. It was the Protestants that had their fingers on the power and authority that comes with that power.

Yeah, that must have been a real blow to the RCC to have all their weath, power and authority distributed more evenly amongst the lowly peon Christians that couldn't read Latin.

 

[ThomasAbel70]

Yeah, that must have been a real blow to the RCC to have all their weath, power and authority distributed more evenly amongst the lowly peon Christians that couldn't read Latin.

Who said we lost our wealth, power and authority (wink, wink)?

And what time frame are you referring to since literacy for most of humanity's history, only the wealthiest had the luxury of an education.

If you could reference a specific period of time, we could gladly discuss "why" people were illiterate and how The Catholic Church took measures to create Christian artwork to display Biblical scenes to those who couldn't read.

You sound like a prime candidate for my forum. PM me and I'll send you the link.

That's "if" you can post with citeable references.

 

[williamcobbet]

Yeah, that must have been a real blow to the RCC to have all their weath, power and authority distributed more evenly amongst the lowly peon Christians that couldn't read Latin.

Little Lamb of Jesus,

Actually the land and the money went to the Protestants that were in power. This happened especially in Britain. It's completely possible that the reformation would not have happened in Britain if there wasn't so much money at stake.

The reformation made the politically powerful rich beyond their wildest dreams. They didn't want the reformation to stop. The Reformation was the sourch of their wealth.

At the same time they were doing this a whole new class of poor were being added to the social structure. These people were not poor when the land was owned by the Monks. They became poor after the reformation.

 

[ThomasAbel70]

Little Lamb of Jesus,
Actually the land and the money went to the Protestants that were in power. This happened especially in Britain. It's completely possible that the reformation would not have happened in Britain if there wasn't so much money at stake.

You must be referring to when King Henry the VIII took over Church property ala' Stalin and turned all The Churches into English properties instituting The Church of England.

Then, you're only talking about a small part of The Universal Church (not "The Church").

The reformation made the politically powerful rich beyond their wildest dreams. They didn't want the reformation to stop. The Reformation was the sourch of their wealth.

You're talking about The Reformers, right?

At the same time they were doing this a whole new class of poor were being added to the social structure. These people were not poor when the land was owned by the Monks. They became poor after the reformation.

Well, that's something I'm not knowledgeable on, but as I know things, there were always basically the haves and the have nots (no middle class really). The structure of the economy had all the money in the hands of the few...sort of like the US today where 10% of the population own something like 90% of the wealth (except, we have a large middle class).

As for the literacy question, no one was really literate. It was considered a luxury. One could attain a free education by becomming a member of clergy, nun or monk.

This was right after the middle ages when The Church lost a full 1/3 of it's religious to The Black Plaque as only The Catholic Church had it's members tending to the sick.

This shortage of religious members (religious meaning Priest, nuns, monks, deacons, etc...) along with the secular world working it's way to infiltrate The Church from within (anti-Popes, use of Church for political expediency, etc...) was what led to the abuses of the late 1,400's.

This was a sort of one-two punch of Satan's attempt to destroy The Church. The Reformers didn't want to start a new religious sect, they wanted to "re-form" The Catholic Church. But instead of working from within in it (which was understandably difficult to do), they were forced to work from the outside of The Church.

Some men got carried away with it and hijacked Christianity and formed their own churches. Hence, our divisions today.

As The Church struggled to recover from the loss of her religious and now her being banished and being persecuted again (as she was in Rome), The Counter Reformation was born where the true Catholic Religious stepped up and strengthened those who remained loyal to The Church.

This is just a pinch of her history at that time period.

And I beleive a good starting point for us.

God bless you.



Pax

 

[Peter]

So, ThomasAble, you seem to believe that Rome did have jurisdiction over the other four Sees of the Church. In other words, you believe Rome was the correct center of the Christian faith and the Pope of Rome the true earthly head of Christ's Church?

Are you aware that Luther's model for reform was none other than the Eastern Church? In fact he called it the "church's better half."

Here's a question..."Were the Reformers successful?"

 

[ThomasAbel70]

So, ThomasAble, you seem to believe that Rome did have jurisdiction over the other four Sees of the Church. In other words, you believe Rome was the correct center of the Christian faith and the Pope of Rome the true earthly head of Christ's Church?

Are you aware that Luther's model for reform was none other than the Eastern Church? In fact he called it the "church's better half."

Here's a question..."Were the Reformers successful?"

Wow! I could use an Orthodox Christian like you on my forum!

http://fideidefensor.proboards80.com/index.cgi

To answer your questions, yes, The Church headquartered in Vatican City (not Rome, as Vatican City is a sovereign nation belonging to nor residing in any country) is The Church spoken of in Matthew 16.

Luther...I like him! He was totally against schism.

No, the reformers failed at their goal (to reform The Church).

They succeeded at forming new churches, but couldn't undo what Jesus did when He created His Church.

I hope you'll find your way to my forum.

My girlfriend is Greek Orthodox (non-practicing).

She's having a problem accepting that you guys have something like 9 popes. I was hoping you could help me explain it to her.

 

[cbreviews]

Like most such claims, there is a grain of truth seen through rose-colored (or is it rome-colored?) glasses. Yes after 500 A.D., the Christian West collapsed. But, contrary to popular opinion, the Roman Empire did not end with the fall of Rome. In fact, Rome had not been the capital of the Empire since the time of Constantine! The Empire continued in the East in the new capital that Constantine had built on the city of Byzantium and had named Nova Roma but after his death was renamed Constantinople in his honor. It would continue in a reduced form until the fifteenth century when the Ottoman Turks overran it.

Yes, the West was in bad shape for many centuries but the Christian East had retained its culture and was the source of the rise of the West when Christians fled there to escape after Byzantium fell. Also, the "dark ages" is a bit of an exaggeration since most of the lands in Europe were dark before it ever began. The only places of culture in France, Germany, and the British Isles were Roman outposts that were oases of culture in a vast wasteland of barbarism. The only true fall into darkness would have been in the Italian peninsula.

The point here is Rome didn't "save" culture since it never left a good part of Europe. It did, to its credit, take advantage of the resources it had but claims of it saving the classical Greco-Roman legacy are a complete exaggeration.

 

[cbreviews]

At the same time they were doing this a whole new class of poor were being added to the social structure. These people were not poor when the land was owned by the Monks. They became poor after the reformation.

You apparently never heard of feudalism which was at its zenith during your alleged "golden age".

 

[ThomasAbel70]

Christianity saved culture.

Constantine united The Empire.

But because Christianity wasn't forced upon anybody,
the Barbarians were allowed to plunge the world into the Dark Ages.

Which was the nature of things. If uncivilized man grew enough to overpower civilized man, so be it...but with time, the Barbabrians grew civilized.

During this time, Islam had fertile ground to grow and was justifiable as an alternative to Christianity.

But, The Church (The Catholic Church) came back strong. As we went to rescue our Orthodox Brethren (upon their request), we also regained our place in The World and Christianity exploded retaking it's rightful place as Humanity's faith.

 

[david01]

Christianity saved culture.

I didn't realize that Christ came to save culture (whatever that might mean).

Constantine united The Empire.

That is, what remained of the Roman Empire,as if it was not united previously.

But because Christianity wasn't forced upon anybody,
the Barbarians were allowed to plunge the world into the Dark Ages.

When there is a state religion, regardless of its beliefs, there is a genuine effort to have the citizens conform to its beliefs and standards. The truth is that the so-called Dark Ages were not nearly as dark as some believe. Who were the Barbarians? The Gothis, the Visigoths, the Celts, the Mongols? All of these. plus many others, played various roles.

Which was the nature of things. If uncivilized man grew enough to overpower civilized man, so be it...but with time, the Barbabrians grew civilized.

What is civilization? During the so-called Dark Ages civilization flourished in China and in India, although it certainly was not Western Civilization.

During this time, Islam had fertile ground to grow and was justifiable as an alternative to Christianity.

It was only justifiable because of the deplorable corruption of Christianity.

But, The Church (The Catholic Church) came back strong. As we went to rescue our Orthodox Brethren (upon their request), we also regained our place in The World and Christianity exploded retaking it's rightful place as Humanity's faith.

Well, well, well. Unfortunately, the time has yet to arrive where it can be honestly said that the RCC is Humanity's faith. If any faith might make that claim, it would probably be Islam which has now exceeded the membership of the RCC, although that can be debated because all of the various sects of Islam are lumped together. If all the Christian denominations were likewise lumped together, then a general case for Christianity being the most popular faith today could be made.

 

[ThomasAbel70]

david01
Well, well, well. Unfortunately, the time has yet to arrive where it can be honestly said that the RCC is Humanity's faith. If any faith might make that claim, it would probably be Islam which has now exceeded the membership of the RCC, although that can be debated because all of the various sects of Islam are lumped together.

Universal Christianity is the world's largest religion.

Which Islam are you referring to? There are several sects of Islam. You would have to pick one specific sect of Islam that is united in it's beliefs completely to compare it to Catholicism.

I guarantee you that if you compared apples to apples, we would still blow Islam away.

Now, if you're going to compare an entire religion, then Christianity as a whole would blow Islam away. Either way, the largest faith on the planet earth by numbers is The Catholic Church.

And why not? Just shows that Jesus is the right choice.

If all the Christian denominations were likewise lumped together, then a general case for Christianity being the most popular faith today could be made.

Again, compare apples to apples. You Islamic sects when you made your initial statement when comparing it to Catholicism (which isn't a comparison of "one" religious" faith to another religious belief).

 

[ThomasAbel70]

Christianity saved culture.

I didn't realize that Christ came to save culture (whatever that might mean).

Who said he came to save culture? I said that the Christian religion (Not Christ Himself) saved culture.



Constantine united The Empire.

That is, what remained of the Roman Empire,as if it was not united previously.

It wasn't united when Constantine united it...it was divided. Fact. I never argued that it was never united.



But because Christianity wasn't forced upon anybody,
the Barbarians were allowed to plunge the world into the Dark Ages.

When there is a state religion, regardless of its beliefs, there is a genuine effort to have the citizens conform to its beliefs and standards. The truth is that the so-called Dark Ages were not nearly as dark as some believe. Who were the Barbarians? The Gothis, the Visigoths, the Celts, the Mongols? All of these. plus many others, played various roles.

Christianity was never a "state" religion. Who told you that?

And Constantine never forced Christianity upon anybody. On top of that, he allowed the continual free practice of all religious beliefs. I guess your statement there would be applicable "if" Catholicism had been made the official religion of The Empire of Rome.

Thanks to Constantine, the persecution of Catholicism came to a halt. We were allowed to worship freely and in the open. He became a convert himself to Catholicism on his deathbed (a common practice at the time to convert on one's deathbead).



Which was the nature of things. If uncivilized man grew enough to overpower civilized man, so be it...but with time, the Barbabrians grew civilized.

What is civilization? During the so-called Dark Ages civilization flourished in China and in India, although it certainly was not Western Civilization.

Well, being that I am a product (as is most of the world) Western Civilization, and today it is Western Civilization that rules the earth and every other civilization wants to be like The West, whatever happened in China or India then didn't make it past China and India.

Once Europe got on her feet, that was all she wrote for any other civilizations influence on humanity. And...China and India missed out on Christianity. Where's the civilization in that?

A quick Google search would show that China during the Dark Ages had it's own Three Kingdoms issues with war and genocide.

India was in the hands of some country or another during the Dark Ages.



During this time, Islam had fertile ground to grow and was justifiable as an alternative to Christianity.

It was only justifiable because of the deplorable corruption of Christianity.

Exactly. And now, it is the "deplorable corruption" of Islam that we are witnessing today (as we see it's Fundamentalists hijack the religion giving Islam a black eye and losing much of it's once well deserved respect).

 

[williamcobbet]

Like most such claims, there is a grain of truth seen through rose-colored (or is it rome-colored?) glasses. Yes after 500 A.D., the Christian West collapsed. But, contrary to popular opinion, the Roman Empire did not end with the fall of Rome. In fact, Rome had not been the capital of the Empire since the time of Constantine! The Empire continued in the East in the new capital that Constantine had built on the city of Byzantium and had named Nova Roma but after his death was renamed Constantinople in his honor. It would continue in a reduced form until the fifteenth century when the Ottoman Turks overran it.

Yes, the West was in bad shape for many centuries but the Christian East had retained its culture and was the source of the rise of the West when Christians fled there to escape after Byzantium fell. Also, the "dark ages" is a bit of an exaggeration since most of the lands in Europe were dark before it ever began. The only places of culture in France, Germany, and the British Isles were Roman outposts that were oases of culture in a vast wasteland of barbarism. The only true fall into darkness would have been in the Italian peninsula.

The point here is Rome didn't "save" culture since it never left a good part of Europe. It did, to its credit, take advantage of the resources it had but claims of it saving the classical Greco-Roman legacy are a complete exaggeration.

You're correct cbreviews, Rome didn't save culture. It was the Roman Catholic Church that saved Rome. Only this Rome was made up of Catholics. No pagans, they were Catholics. This is exactly what is so amazing about this whole scenario. Rome was destroying itself internally. It would have gone the way of the Summerians. Just a bunch of wrecked buildings and a bit of history to go with them. It was astonishing that the Catholic Church brought unity to what remained of Rome.
You're correct again. Constantinople was a bright light in the ancient world. If a rich man wanted his son to get a good education, he sent him to Constantinople. The people of Europe needed more than this. They got it throuh the Roman Catholic Church. ( This is exactly why it was called the Holy Roman Empire). The Catholic Church unified the people of Europe. They unified them in Faith, in Church teachings, and in bearing arms to defeat the many invaders that were coming from all directions. Europe survived this because of the Catholic Church.

The years between 500 and 1000 were certainly a dark ages. This is what historians have called this period. They have called it this because that is exactly what it was. Europe was constantly in jeopardy. It was constantly teetering on the brink of defeat from multiple enemies. Because of the people of Europe were unified under the Catholic Church they survived. This can only be described as a miracle.

 

[williamcobbet]

You apparently never heard of feudalism which was at its zenith during your alleged "golden age".

cbreviews,
The Roman Empire was built on slavery. It was the Catholic Church that eliminated slavery over a period of a few hundred years.
Under the Holy Roman Empire there were no slaves. All men were free. It wasn't until the Reformation that slavery came back into custom.

 

[williamcobbet]

Christianity saved culture.

Constantine united The Empire.

But because Christianity wasn't forced upon anybody,
the Barbarians were allowed to plunge the world into the Dark Ages.

Which was the nature of things. If uncivilized man grew enough to overpower civilized man, so be it...but with time, the Barbabrians grew civilized.

During this time, Islam had fertile ground to grow and was justifiable as an alternative to Christianity.

But, The Church (The Catholic Church) came back strong. As we went to rescue our Orthodox Brethren (upon their request), we also regained our place in The World and Christianity exploded retaking it's rightful place as Humanity's faith.

The Barbarians would have destroyed everything they touched if it wasn't for the Roman Catholic Church.
There was no alternative to be Roman Catholic. That was the only Christian religion in existance. It was the Roman Catholics that tamed the barbarians.

Absolutely nothing was handed to the Roman Catholics. They survived by God's grace. They will continue to survive by God's grace. I cannot say the same for the Protestant Churches.

Islam is not a good facimile to the Catholic Church. Islam is a heresy of the Catholic Church. How do you think that the Koran speaks of Jesus, Mary, and St. Michael? They took what them wanted from the Catholic Church and then made their own religion. Not too very different from what the Protestants have done.

 

[williamcobbet]

Well, well, well. Unfortunately, the time has yet to arrive where it can be honestly said that the RCC is Humanity's faith. If any faith might make that claim, it would probably be Islam which has now exceeded the membership of the RCC, although that can be debated because all of the various sects of Islam are lumped together. If all the Christian denominations were likewise lumped together, then a general case for Christianity being the most popular faith today could be made.

If membership is being used as the criteria for a good church, then how many members does your church have?

 

[williamcobbet]

Christianity saved culture.



Who said he came to save culture? I said that the Christian religion (Not Christ Himself) saved culture.



Constantine united The Empire.







It wasn't united when Constantine united it...it was divided. Fact. I never argued that it was never united.



But because Christianity wasn't forced upon anybody,
the Barbarians were allowed to plunge the world into the Dark Ages.







Christianity was never a "state" religion. Who told you that?

And Constantine never forced Christianity upon anybody. On top of that, he allowed the continual free practice of all religious beliefs. I guess your statement there would be applicable "if" Catholicism had been made the official religion of The Empire of Rome.

Thanks to Constantine, the persecution of Catholicism came to a halt. We were allowed to worship freely and in the open. He became a convert himself to Catholicism on his deathbed (a common practice at the time to convert on one's deathbead).



Which was the nature of things. If uncivilized man grew enough to overpower civilized man, so be it...but with time, the Barbabrians grew civilized.







Well, being that I am a product (as is most of the world) Western Civilization, and today it is Western Civilization that rules the earth and every other civilization wants to be like The West, whatever happened in China or India then didn't make it past China and India.

Once Europe got on her feet, that was all she wrote for any other civilizations influence on humanity. And...China and India missed out on Christianity. Where's the civilization in that?

A quick Google search would show that China during the Dark Ages had it's own Three Kingdoms issues with war and genocide.

India was in the hands of some country or another during the Dark Ages.



During this time, Islam had fertile ground to grow and was justifiable as an alternative to Christianity.







Exactly. And now, it is the "deplorable corruption" of Islam that we are witnessing today (as we see it's Fundamentalists hijack the religion giving Islam a black eye and losing much of it's once well deserved respect).

I may have been amiss in not quoting references.
Try Hilaire Beloc------The Reformation
William Cobbett-------Protestant Reformation in England and Ireland.

William Cobbett wrote the book mentioned above in 1824. He was a Protestant. He was also honest in that he reported exactly as he saw.

Hilaire Beloc was of French descent. He was raised and lived most of his life in Britain. He wrote most of his books before WWII. It was during the 30's. He was an asture historian, a teacher, and intellectual, and was extremely popular in his day.