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Apollos1

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bb-123 said - We can go to Pauline doctrine though and see that Paul was FIRST ONE given the revelation of the mystery and he (paul) made it known to others.

We can? Which scripture(s) teaches us that Paul was the “first” to receive some alleged second (hand) gospel ??? And please, be gentle.


bb-123 said - We can see that Paul is the pattern 1 Timothy 1:16.

What are you saying Paul is the pattern OF or the pattern FOR ???

It appears you have taken this verse completely out of its CONTEXT.

The word for pattern used here is “protos” meaning Paul was a “prototype" – but a prototype of what?

Paul was the prototype or “chief” example of Christ’s longsuffering toward sinners, and therefore Paul is the “pattern” of Christ’s longsuffering - which was exhibited through Paul being forgiven.

This passage is certainly NOT saying Paul was OUR pattern to follow or to observe.
 
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biblebeliever123

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Galatians 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Paul did NOT learn the truths he preached from any man. Paul received them by direct revelation from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 15:15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,Romans 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

Paul was made the minister of Jesus Christ to the gentiles. Also..Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Ephesians 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
BY REVELATION the Lord Jesus Christ revealed to Paul 'the mystery which in other ages was NOT MADE KNOWN unto the sons of men. Paul communicated it to God's holy apostles and prophets, they saw it by the Spirit (just as we see it by the Spirit). The mystery was made known to Paul by revelation of Jesus Christ and to others by the Spirit.

Other references: Col. 1:24-26, 2 timothy 2:8, 1 Tim. 2:5-7, Gal. 2:6,7, Gal. 2:2, gal. 2:9, Romans 16:25,26, 1 Cor. 1:17, 1 timothy 1:15,16, Titus 2:2,3, 1Tim. 1:11, Acts 20;24, Eph. 3:7-9, 1 Cor. 11:23, 1 Cor. 15:3, 1 Cor. 15:51-52, 1 Cor. 3:10, Gal. 1:8-9)

If Paul did not receive the revelation of the mystery by direct revelation he was a liar. If someone else received the revelation of the mystery before Paul...who was it?

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Speaks for itself...Saul of Tarsus was an enemy of Christ, chief of sinners.

1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Paul is the pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. Why does it say to Paul first if there is not something new happening? Why Paul first if everyone before him had been saved by believing the same gospel? Paul was the pattern (set forth by the Lord Himself) for us the body of Christ to follow..in salvation, in service, and in conduct.

Paul is the pattern in the grace shown to him as a sinner. The Lord Jesus Christ could not be our pattern in salvation... He had no need of salvation. He was the saviour. He made a sinner the pattern of salvation for those that should hereafter believe unto life everlasting.
Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. Paul stands as a pattern for salvation as the chief of sinners he received abundant grace, exceeding abundant. Where sin did abound, grace did MUCH MORE ABOUND. Paul was the pattern for them that should hereafter believe unto life everlasting bringing to us a new dispensation, God's dispensation of grace where grace reigns.

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
 
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Apollos1

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bb123 -

Wow - lots of scriptures there.

But not ONE of them tells us that Paul was the FIRST to have that (second) gospel you claim he did. Not one!

And yes - Paul ministered to the Gentiles - no question that Paul was chosen for that.

Oh yes - Paul recevied the gospel by revelation - not from man, and by God's grace became an apostle to preach that gospel. He is not a liar - but that is not the point is it?

You have been claiming that Paul was the FIRST to receive the gospel - PROVE IT!

The sad fact is... you CAN"T! For all the passages you supplied, not ONE - NOT ONE say Paul was the first!!!

But dispys say this all the time - why?

It is because they know that it bolsters their bi-gospel positon. IF Paul was the first, then it was a new gospel and all sorts of things started with him - right?

But the TRUTH is, you can NOT prove he was first! You must assume this just as you assume there were two gospels. This is truly sad when you think about it.
<<<*>>>

You said - If someone else received the revelation of the mystery before Paul...who was it?

This is quite telling. You all but state you can NOT prove Paul was the first to receive the gospel.

But I (as of yet) have made no claims. I have but asked you to support YOUR claim. You can't!

You said - Paul is the pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

1 Timothy does not support you on this thought -sorry!

You said - Why does it say to Paul first if there is not something new happening?

The thought being conveyed is that Paul was the "primary" or "chief" example of Christ's longsuffering - showing anyone can receive forgiveness - because Paul even after persecuting the church received forgiveness.

The rest of your post just begs the question, so...

Do you want to attempt to prove Paul was first again?
 
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biblebeliever123

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The mystery was kept secret....Romasn 16:25. Nobody else is talking about it except Paul.

The mystery was hid in God till revealed to Paul. Eph. 3:9. Nobody else is talking about it except Paul.

The mystery was hid from ages and from generations until revealed to Paul. Col. 1:26, Eph. 3:5. Nobody else is talking about it except Paul.

Paul says the gospel of the UNcircumcision was COMMITTED UNTO ME. (Gal. 2:7) No one else says that.
The mystery was 'GIVEN ME to youward' Eph. 3:2
The mystery "which is GIVEN TO ME for you' Col. 1:25
No other Bible writer makes any of these claims.
Paul was the first one to receive this direct revelation from the Lord and he in turn taught it to others...we receive and believe by the Spirit not by revelation.

Some people are very scholarly I agree... and some just can't read and believe the Bible.

The case has been presented... you reject it. That's fine. In your rejection offer an alternative. WHO ELSE received the mystery (will you even acknowledge that there was a mystery that had been kept secret, hid in God, hid from ages and from generations but now revealed?) ..who else received the mystery message then before Paul??
 
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eph3Nine

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biblebeliever123 said:
The mystery was kept secret....Romans 16:25. Nobody else is talking about it except Paul.

The mystery was hid in God till revealed to Paul. Eph. 3:9. Nobody else is talking about it except Paul.

The mystery was hid from ages and from generations until revealed to Paul. Col. 1:26, Eph. 3:5. Nobody else is talking about it except Paul.

Paul says the gospel of the UNcircumcision was COMMITTED UNTO ME. (Gal. 2:7) No one else says that.

The mystery was 'GIVEN ME to youward' Eph. 3:2
The mystery "which is GIVEN TO ME for you' Col. 1:25
No other Bible writer makes any of these claims.

Paul was the first one to receive this direct revelation from the Lord and he in turn taught it to others...we receive and believe by the Spirit not by revelation.

Some people are very scholarly I agree... and some just can't read and believe the Bible.

The case has been presented... you reject it. That's fine. In your rejection offer an alternative. WHO ELSE received the mystery .....(will you even acknowledge that there was a mystery that had been kept secret, hid in God, hid from ages and from generations but now revealed?) ..who else received the mystery message then before Paul??

Well said, bible believer. Waving pom pom's like crazy!!!:clap:
 
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biblebeliever123

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The mystery was HID IN GOD...not in scripture. I prefer to believe the Bible.

It was KEPT SECRET, not spoken (as prophecy...contrast Acts 3:21 spoken by the mouth since the world began with Romans 16:25 KEPT SECRET since the world began.)
It was HID IN GOD, not hidden in scripture. (Eph. 3:8-9)

I would get very weary of fighting the mystery, the gospel by which I will some day be judged...but hey, whatever floats your boat folks. :)
 
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biblebeliever123

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It was hid from ages and from generations. He had made something known since the world began....the prophetic program.
The mystery program, the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery, KEPT SECRET since the world began.

Prophetic program .... Israel, earthly, law, kingdom
Mystery program.. the body of Christ, heavenly, grace, dispensation of the grace of God.
 
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eph3Nine

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billychum said:
It may only mean that the mystery was hid in the OT. but made plain to Paul who in turn revealed it to others.

Billy <><

You know better than this, billy. Paul was appointed to preach the UNSEARCHABLE riches of Christ. That word means UNTRACEABLE ...its NOT TO BE FOUND IN THE OT. When the Bible tells us that the Mystery truths were HID IN GOD, it does NOT mean that it was HID IN THE OT! God kept something HIDDEN for a reason. Those in the KINGDOM program didnt KNOW it because it simply was NOT THERE IN THE PROPHETIC WRITINGS ANYWHERE!
 
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eph3Nine

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The Roman CHURCH would have to have been started by Paul or someone HE taught. Since it is part of the Mystery truth and has to do with the Body of Christ, this HAS to be the case. Bible believer has already mentioned this fact.

Scripture doesnt give us this specific information...ie: who began the church represented in Romans. But we DO know that as it is a part of the MYSTERY, it had to be Paul or someone he taught.

Simple...no rocket science here. Rightly dividing actually makes SENSE of the scriptures that seemingly contradict.
 
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eph3Nine

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The Church that was established at Rome HAD to be part of the MYSTERY truth given to Paul...by its placement in the Bible...who wrote about it..the doctrine contained IN it and the apostle that taught it.

English is my first language.
 
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