Romans 9

bling · Nov 21, 2013

OzSpen said:
Bling,

This is a red herring.

You are wanting me to go on your tangent when you don't seem to want to understand the Israelite worldview and God's understanding that he gave them of the potter and the clay throughout the OT and especially in Jeremiah 18.

God hardened Pharaoh's heart at the same time as Pharoah hardened his own heart.

To further understand God, the potter, and the nation/human being as the clay from a Jewish worldview (which was the apostle Paul's background) - the sovereignty of God and the human responsibility of human beings - see the article, 'Who Hardened Pharaoh's Heart?' by Dave Miller & Kyle Butt.

In Christ,
Oz

What I am explaining about the Jew/Gentile issue in Ro. 9 is totally in context, so not a Red Herring, while trying to draw parallels between Jeremiah 18 and Ro. 9 might be considered a Red Herring.

As far as hardening of a persons heart (I really do not need to read Dave Miller, but might later read it to see if they agree with me:

The same opportunities (lots of times these are tragedies) God provides for us can: soften our hearts or harden our hearts, depending on how we accept the opportunity. Now Pharaoh had lots of opportunities from God to humbly drop to his knees and accept Gods Forgiveness, but there would also come a time (which only God could know), when a sinner reaches a point at which they will never repent and from that point on they take on a lesser purpose for their life (Pharaoh might have reached that state way before Moses came on the seen, so Pharaoh was not going to change).

OzSpen · Nov 21, 2013

bling,

No matter how much I go over and over this in stating the Jewish (and Paul's Jewish) worldview on the potter and the clay, exemplified in Jeremiah 18, you don't seem to want to understand what I'm saying about what that means for Romans 9:21 and the Jewish view of the potter and clay.

The image you seem to be wanting me to see is something coming out of the Western mindset of God, the determinist, with your language, 'he can make anything he wants'.

That is not how the Hebrews understood the potter and the clay analogy from Jeremiah 18 and this applied to how Paul used the analogy in Rom 9:21.

In the Jeremiah 18 example, the nation of Israel would be built up or town down, depending on its response to God. Jeremiah 18:8 makes this clear: 'And if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it' (ESV).

So, God the potter is not God the determinist with Israel. God's will for the nation is determined by whether it turns from evil or not. If it - taking human responsibility - turns from evil, God will relent.

That's God's understanding of the potter and clay example and that's how Paul understands it as a Jew who is writing. He would not see it as God the determinist. Human co-operation was part of the plan of God.

This has been God's requirement since the beginning of time when he did not deterministically require man to sin. God commanded the man, 'You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die' (Gen 2:16-17 ESV).

God did not command: 'You have only one option - you must eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil'.

The potter and the clay analogy, from God's perspective, is not a promotion of determinism. A human moral response is required.

You ask:

Do you see the difference between Pauls analogy and Jeremiahs analogy being two different times in the Potters creation process?

No, I don't. That's because for the Jewish worldview from which Paul writes, God is not the determinist. God requires human response, whether that be national or personal.

Oz

bling said:
OK, Oz, I have no problem with every Jew and all humanity having the same understanding of: the potter and the clay, everyone (Jew and gentile) knows: while the clay remains as clay with the Potter working at the wheel he can make anything he wants from it (that is what Jeremiah is presenting 18:6 Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, Israel). But everyone also realizes once the potter takes the clay and makes a completed vessel for a special purpose or a common purpose, it cannot be switched (that is the way Paul is using the potter analogy some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? and Shall what is formed). Paul is not talking about the forming process, but the completed vessel.

Do you see the difference between Pauls analogy and Jeremiahs analogy being two different times in the Potters creation process?

What presuppositions do you think I have? Is it a presupposition to notice people are born into different families and cannot change their ancestry, so is our ancestry determined by God?

OzSpen · Nov 21, 2013

bling said:
The same opportunities (lots of times these are tragedies) God provides for us can: soften our hearts or harden our hearts, depending on how we accept the opportunity. Now Pharaoh had lots of opportunities from God to humbly drop to his knees and accept Gods Forgiveness, but there would also come a time (which only God could know), when a sinner reaches a point at which they will never repent and from that point on they take on a lesser purpose for their life (Pharaoh might have reached that state way before Moses came on the seen, so Pharaoh was not going to change).

God does not harden Pharaoh's heart without Pharaoh hardening his own heart.

Charis kai Dunamis · Nov 21, 2013

OzSpen said:
God does not harden Pharaoh's heart without Pharaoh hardening his own heart.

How about in Exodus 4:21? Had Pharaoh hardened his heart already?

Jack Terrence · Nov 21, 2013

Charis kai Dunamis said:
How about in Exodus 4:21? Had Pharaoh hardened his heart already?

Let God be God!

OzSpen · Nov 21, 2013

Charis kai Dunamis said:
How about in Exodus 4:21? Had Pharaoh hardened his heart already?

That is but one example of a summary of the actions regarding Pharaoh's hardening of his heart.

Justin Taylor has provided this summary of 'the hardening of Pharaoh's heart':

Here is a quick run-down of the key biblical data:

Three times Yahweh declares that he will harden Pharaohs heart (Ex. 4:21; 7:3; 14:4).
Six times Yahweh actually hardens Pharaohs heart (Ex. 9:12; 10:1; 10:20; 10:27; 11:10; 14:8).
Seven times the hardening is expressed as a divine passive with Yahweh as the implied subject, i.e., Pharaohs heart was hardened by Yahweh (Ex. 7:13; 7:14; 7:22; 8:19; 9:7; 9:35; 14:5).
And three times we are told that Pharaoh hardened his own heart (Ex. 8:15; 8:32; 9:34).

Most certainly let God be God. I agree wholeheartedly. But we need the elements of God's revelation that he has supplied in the above verses and not one verse only that you supplied of Ex 4:21.

Oz

Hammster · Nov 21, 2013

Then the Lord spoke to Moses: “Tell the Israelites to turn back and camp in front of Pi-hahiroth, between Migdol and the sea; you must camp in front of Baal-zephon, facing it by the sea. Pharaoh will say of the Israelites: They are wandering around the land in confusion; the wilderness has boxed them in. I will harden Pharaoh’s heart so that he will pursue them. Then I will receive glory by means of Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am Yahweh.” So the Israelites did this. (Exodus 14:1-4 HCSB)

Here's the final time God hardens Pharaoh's heart. And He hardens the hearts of the Egyptian solders. And He does so that Pharaoh will be destroyed and that God will be glorified.

Jack Terrence · Nov 21, 2013

OzSpen said:
That is but one example of a summary of the actions regarding Pharaoh's hardening of his heart.

Justin Taylor has provided this summary of 'the hardening of Pharaoh's heart':

Here is a quick run-down of the key biblical data:

Three times Yahweh declares that he will harden Pharaohs heart (Ex. 4:21; 7:3; 14:4).

Six times Yahweh actually hardens Pharaohs heart (Ex. 9:12; 10:1; 10:20; 10:27; 11:10; 14:8).

Seven times the hardening is expressed as a divine passive with Yahweh as the implied subject, i.e., Pharaohs heart was hardened by Yahweh (Ex. 7:13; 7:14; 7:22; 8:19; 9:7; 9:35; 14:5).

And three times we are told that Pharaoh hardened his own heart (Ex. 8:15; 8:32; 9:34).

Most certainly let God be God. I agree wholeheartedly. But we need the elements of God's revelation that he has supplied in the above verses and not one verse only that you supplied of Ex 4:21.

Oz

Justin Taylor's summary supports Calvinism.

shturt678 · Nov 21, 2013

Just to bring a little more clarity: Rom.9:18 via Mr. Chemnitz, Matthias Loy, and Keil summarized: Ten times Exodus reports that Pharaoh hardened himself; then, only in consequence of this self-hardening, we read ten times that God hardened this self-hardened man.

Then Mr. Loy wraps up with something like after five plagues Pharaoh hardened his heart progressively; then after the sixth God's hardening set in (Exod.9:12). After the seventh it is again Pharaoh (Exod.9:35); then it is God who hardened, but now in complete tragedy (Exod.10:20, 27; 11:10; 14:4, 5).

I agree with all the former, and personally accountable for any discripancies in Exod., ie, my backyard.

Just ol' old Jack weeding in the backyard

OzSpen · Nov 21, 2013

The Boxer said:
Justin Taylor's summary supports Calvinism.

Justin Taylor's summary supports God hardening Pharaoh's heard AND, AND Pharaoh hardening his own heart.

Your response seems to be somewhat myopic on this point.

Oz

Jack Terrence · Nov 21, 2013

OzSpen said:
Justin Taylor's summary supports God hardening Pharaoh's heard AND, AND Pharaoh hardening his own heart.

Your response seems to be somewhat myopic on this point.

Oz

I guess we see Justin Taylor's summary differently as we do the scriptures.

Anyway, I decided to look at the instances where Pharoah supposedly hardened his own heart and it is NOT clear at all that this was the case.

The NEB reads thus,

8:15 He became obdurate
8:32 Once again Pharoah became obdurate
9:34 So Pharoah remained obstinate

***These do NOT necessarily infer that Pharoah hardened his own heart.***

The NEB seems to be more in line with the English sub-text of the Online Hebrew Interlinear which does not indicate that Pharoah acted upon himself. In fact, 9:34 in the Interlinear suggests that Pharoah remained obstinate because YHWH was adding to his sin and making his heart hardened.

and he [YHWH] is adding to the sin of [Pharoah] and he [YHWH] is making heavy heart-of-him [Pharoah] Brackets mine

bling · Nov 21, 2013

OzSpen said:
OzSpen said:

bling,

No matter how much I go over and over this in stating the Jewish (and Paul's Jewish) worldview on the potter and the clay, exemplified in Jeremiah 18, you don't seem to want to understand what I'm saying about what that means for Romans 9:21 and the Jewish view of the potter and clay.

Click to expand...

I have no problem understanding what you and Jeremiah are both saying,the problem is that is not what Paul is saying nor is Paul’s analogy of the potter, clay and vessels. In Jeremiah, Israel is the pliable clay, while with Paul we are talking about completed two vessels and not a host of different types of vessels the potter could make from the clay. That would fit the two possibilities of being gentile or Jew.

It is not any particular group’s “worldview” that the potter can do whatever the Potter wants with a piece of clay on his wheel, but it is no one’s view that after the potter makes a completed vessel the potter can change the vessel.

Paul’s Gentile audience has not gone away (Ismael, Esau and Pharaoh are all gentiles in the analogy), so would they not need a little further explanation about what Jeremiah 18 says?

The image you seem to be wanting me to see is something coming out of the Western mindset of God, the determinist, with your language, 'he can make anything he wants'.

I am not talking about God determining anything about the individual’s salvation (determinism)!

But I am talking about: “Did God determine, before you did anything, who your parents would be or is that a bad image of God?”

Can we agree that God can make any child having Jewish or Gentile parents (that choice is God’s [the Potter]) or does the embryo do something to change God’s choice?

The image you seem to be wanting me to see is something coming out of the Western mindset of God, the determinist, with your language, 'he can make anything he wants'.

Click to expand...

Not at all, I am not talking about God determining anything about the individual’s salvation (determinism)!

But I am talking about: “Did God determine, before you did anything, who your parents would be or is that a bad image of God?”

That is not how the Hebrews understood the potter and the clay analogy from Jeremiah 18 and this applied to how Paul used the analogy in Rom 9:21.

Click to expand...

The Jews understood the Jer. 18 analogy like everyone in the world even without it being in Jer. would understands the Potter working with the clay, but that is not the same as the Potter and the vessels story.

In the Jeremiah 18 example, the nation of Israel would be built up or town down, depending on its response to God. Jeremiah 18:8 makes this clear: 'And if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it' (ESV).

Click to expand...

I understand Jer. 18 and use it a lot in teaching and the potter can reform the clay even after he started to make one thing to make it into another thing, you have to do a lot of reading into Romans 9 to add that meaning to what Paul is saying.

So, God the potter is not God the determinist with Israel. God's will for the nation is determined by whether it turns from evil or not. If it - taking human responsibility - turns from evil, God will relent.

Click to expand...

Yes very good that is what God is stating with the analogy of a potter while working with clay, but that says nothing about changing the vessel after it has been made into a vessel for a special purpose or a common purpose.

That's God's understanding of the potter and clay example and that's how Paul understands it as a Jew who is writing. He would not see it as God the determinist. Human co-operation was part of the plan of God.

Click to expand...

Again as you say: “the potter and clay” but not the potter and his completed vessels.

This has been God's requirement since the beginning of time when he did not deterministically require man to sin. God commanded the man, 'You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die' (Gen 2:16-17 ESV).

God did not command: 'You have only one option - you must eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil'.

Click to expand...

Right.

The potter and the clay analogy, from God's perspective, is not a promotion of determinism. A human moral response is required.

Click to expand...

Again the clay while on the potter’s wheel can be made any way the potter likes, but once it is made into a vessel it cannot change.

No, I don't. That's because for the Jewish worldview from which Paul writes, God is not the determinist. God requires human response, whether that be national or personal.

Click to expand...

You do not see the difference between a pliable lump of clay and pottery ready to leave the potter’s shop? Jeremiah is talking only about the clay before completion and Paul talks about the clay being completed into two different types of vessels.

OzSpen · Nov 21, 2013

bling said:
You do not see the difference between a pliable lump of clay and pottery ready to leave the potters shop? Jeremiah is talking only about the clay before completion and Paul talks about the clay being completed into two different types of vessels.

Click to expand...

You do not seem to understand how the Jewish worldview understood the potter and clay analogy. God was not the determinist who acted without human response and responsibility. God's method started in the Garden of Genesis 2 and it will not change throughout human history.

That's what the potter and clay analogy teaches, but a Western worldview wants to make it mean a deterministic God, but Jeremiah 18 makes it clear that that is not how Yahweh understands his actions in human history, whether on nations or individuals.

Oz

Charis kai Dunamis · Nov 21, 2013

OzSpen said:
That is but one example of a summary of the actions regarding Pharaoh's hardening of his heart.

You're missing the point. God says He will harden Pharoah's heart before anything has ever happened regarding Pharaoh hardening his own heart. Anything regarding Pharaoh's heart being hardened after should then necessarily be read in light of the prior context; Pharoah's hardening is not apart from God's initial purpose to do so and cannot be interpreted separately from it [like you are attempting to do]. If Pharaoh is said to harden his own heart anywhere in the text after the fact, it cannot be isolated apart from Exodus 4:21. Further, Paul takes this position in Romans 9:18 and defeats your objection in v19 and on.

Jack Terrence · Nov 21, 2013

OzSpen said:
bling said:

You do not seem to understand how the Jewish worldview understood the potter and clay analogy. God was not the determinist who acted without human response and responsibility. God's method started in the Garden of Genesis 2 and it will not change throughout human history.

Click to expand...

Was not Paul a Jew? Did he employ the potter and clay analogy the way Jeremiah did? Answer: No

Jack Terrence · Nov 21, 2013

Charis kai Dunamis said:
You're missing the point. God says He will harden Pharoah's heart before anything has ever happened regarding Pharaoh hardening his own heart. Anything regarding Pharaoh's heart being hardened after should then necessarily be read in light of the prior context; Pharoah's hardening is not apart from God's initial purpose to do so and cannot be interpreted separately from it [like you are attempting to do]. If Pharaoh is said to harden his own heart anywhere in the text after the fact, it cannot be isolated apart from Exodus 4:21. Further, Paul takes this position in Romans 9:18 and defeats your objection in v19 and on.

It's not even likely that Pharoah hardened his own heart in any instance (post #391).

shturt678 · Nov 21, 2013

Exod.8:15, "he hardened his heart" using my good ol' ASV. (anapsuksis, relief from an overpowering pressure), literally, as soon as he "got air," he simply hardened his own heart, so that he did not hearken to Moses and Aaron grammatically and contextually confirmed by Keil with his Hebrew collaboration.

God did put the hurtin to those frogs however - the smell

Just ol' old Jack that likes frog legs, and you good folks

OzSpen · Nov 21, 2013

The Boxer said:
I guess we see Justin Taylor's summary differently as we do the scriptures.

Anyway, I decided to look at the instances where Pharoah supposedly hardened his own heart and it is NOT clear at all that this was the case.

The NEB reads thus,

8:15 He became obdurate
8:32 Once again Pharoah became obdurate
9:34 So Pharoah remained obstinate

***These do NOT necessarily infer that Pharoah hardened his own heart.***

The NEB seems to be more in line with the English sub-text of the Online Hebrew Interlinear which does not indicate that Pharoah acted upon himself. In fact, 9:34 in the Interlinear suggests that Pharoah remained obstinate because YHWH was adding to his sin and making his heart hardened.

and he [YHWH] is adding to the sin of [Pharoah] and he [YHWH] is making heavy heart-of-him [Pharoah] Brackets mine

Keil & Delitzsch's OT commentary, based on the Hebrew, does not agree with this New English Bible translation that you are promoting. K&D state regarding Ex 8:15,
'Though Jehovah had thus manifested Himself as the Almighty God and Lord of the creation, Pharaoh did not keep his promise; but when he saw that there was breathing-time ... relief from an overpowering pressure), literally, as soon as he "got air" he hardened his heart, so that he did not hearken to Moses and Aaron' (Keil & Delizsch n d. The Pentateuch, Eerdmans, p. 482).

Whether the language is 'obdurate' or 'hardened', the issue does not change. God did not make Pharaoh's heart obdurate/hardened without the free choice of Pharaoh hardening his own heart. We know that 'Pharaoh's heart was hardened' or 'grew hard' (Ex 7:13) the more that God pressured Pharaoh.

We know that the same sun that hardens clay also melts wax. God hardened Pharaoh's heart in a like manner. If Pharaoh had received God's warnings and acted on them, his heart would not have been hardened.

Oz

Charis kai Dunamis · Nov 21, 2013

The Boxer said:
It's not even likely that Pharoah hardened his own heart in any instance (post #391).

But that is technically further away from the real issue. It shouldn't matter whether the Scriptures say God did it or Pharaoh did it after the fact. If God said He would harden Pharoah's heart before Pharaoh had actually hardened his own heart, then all occurrences of the hardening of Pharaoh's heart should be read in that context. If Pharaoh is said to harden his own heart, it's because God said He would harden it first, and God is not apart from it. To read it an other way is to chop up the text and read each passage in isolation, apart from 4:21 and the declaration of God which mentioned nothing of "judicial" hardening. It is an idea entirely foreign to the text.

OzSpen · Nov 21, 2013

The Boxer said:
OzSpen said:

Was not Paul a Jew? Did he employ the potter and clay analogy the way Jeremiah did? Answer: No

Click to expand...

Assertions do not answer issues.

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