Romans 9:11-16

[peace4ever]

From my experience, Arminians avoid these verses. But these verses are the crux of God's sovereignty and Calvinism. They deal, not only with God's election, but they deal with grace by God's mercy rather than man's works.

They can be illustrated by the parable of the worker in Matthew 20 where Jesus tells us about God's sovereignty through the perspective of an employer. These verses give us the following truths:

1) That an employer can hire and fire whomever he wants
2) That an employer doesn't have to hire everyone qualified for the job
3) That its none of the business of the employees how the employer treats other workers
4) He who wants to be first will be last and the last will be first
5) That the employer, not the employees, determines who has the employer's favor for whatever reason the employer wants
6) That the employees think they are qualified to run the business of the employer rather than the employer.

For starters. This illustrates God's sovereign choice in election perfectly. None of us deserves heaven, so God electing even one person for heaven is a gift, not an entitlement. But like the parable of the workers, the sinful nature says; "That's not fair! We should be able to decide who goes to heaven and who goes to hell so God should give us the choice, not make it Himself."

But the Spirit of God says; "I am the almighty and I decide who gets to be in my kingdom and it's not by man's desire, effort or works so no one may boast before me."

So man's sinful nature is all about "me." God's nature is all about God. So verse 15 in the parable of the worker: "Dont I have the right to do what i want with my money? Or are you envious because I am generous?" demonstrates that it's envy when God determines whom He wants His elect to be instead of acknowledging that God is sovereign and only He can establish the criteria on which to base who enters His kingdom. But the beauty of God's election is that since no one knows who God's elect are, then salvation is open to anyone who wants it. That reconciles the whole bible together.

 

[ReformedChapin]

yep

 

[mlqurgw]

Wholeheartedly agree!
Should this be moved to the main room as there is really no question being asked?

 

[Arc]

Ok. I'll ask a Calvinist a question about Romans 9. If we get to examine the whole context that spans Romans 9-11.

Here we go:

First, Romans 9. If you like, just accept what most Calvinist say it means. Then keep reading. Let's find out what Paul thinks about the non-elect Jew's fate.

Rom 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
Rom 9:24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

So the "called" have one end, but what about the rest?

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.

First, Paul already seems to have stated what the elect or "called" receive from chapters 8-9. Rom 9:24 says they were prepared for glory. So who is it that Paul desires to be saved? Well, Romans 9:6 tells us that not all Israel are of Israel. So Paul, after his discussion through Romans 9 "seems" to tell us the fate of the two classes of Jews (yes, Gentiles get in there too). There are the ones God has compassion on and the ones He hardens ("vessels of wrath prepared for destruction"). Paul reveals that he desires that they may be saved!

Paul goes on through Romans 10 telling us that they should have known better but they did not. They are disobedient.

Now, it gets interesting. Paul says:

Rom 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Rom 11:5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

So it seems those whom God foreknew are not going to be cast away, we all know that. Let's read on...

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Rom 11:11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.


How can Paul say that?! The elect obtained, but the blinded ones Paul says they have not fallen beyond recovery! They are actually to be provoked by the Gentiles coming to salvation. How can someone who is not elect and blinded by God be provoked to jealousy if what is required is that they be "elect" by God from the foundation of the earth?

Paul says it again:

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
Rom 11:14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

Tell me. How does Paul think he can provoke the non-elect, blinded by God, "Esau" that God "hates" prepared for destruction Jew to the point of salvation?

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Rom 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Not only can the non-elect be provoked to turn and be saved, the saved should fear being cut-off!
Note that God is able to graft them in again. Man doesn't graft himself in, God does it. But God can only graft those in who do not continue in unbelief. So there is the action of God and the belief of man (a condition to be met). Paul's own words refute a Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9.

You should be able to see why I am unconvinced of a Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9. You've got the non-elect, blinded by God coming to faith! But I thought only the elect were going to be saved? That's why I believe that one can move "in Christ" making them elect in Christ, and one can also fall from that position. I believe it because Paul teaches it in the very context and flow of thought of Romans 9-11!

How then can the non-elect, blinded by God come to faith?

 

[Arc]

 

[green wolverine]

Ok. I'll ask a Calvinist a question about Romans 9. If we get to examine the whole context that spans Romans 9-11.

Here we go:

First, Romans 9. If you like, just accept what most Calvinist say it means. Then keep reading. Let's find out what Paul thinks about the non-elect Jew's fate.

Rom 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
Rom 9:24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

So the "called" have one end, but what about the rest?

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.

First, Paul already seems to have stated what the elect or "called" receive from chapters 8-9. Rom 9:24 says they were prepared for glory. So who is it that Paul desires to be saved? Well, Romans 9:6 tells us that not all Israel are of Israel. So Paul, after his discussion through Romans 9 "seems" to tell us the fate of the two classes of Jews (yes, Gentiles get in there too). There are the ones God has compassion on and the ones He hardens ("vessels of wrath prepared for destruction"). Paul reveals that he desires that they may be saved!

Paul goes on through Romans 10 telling us that they should have known better but they did not. They are disobedient.

Now, it gets interesting. Paul says:

Rom 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Rom 11:5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

So it seems those whom God foreknew are not going to be cast away, we all know that. Let's read on...

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Rom 11:11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.


How can Paul say that?! The elect obtained, but the blinded ones Paul says they have not fallen beyond recovery! They are actually to be provoked by the Gentiles coming to salvation. How can someone who is not elect and blinded by God be provoked to jealousy if what is required is that they be "elect" by God from the foundation of the earth?

Paul says it again:

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
Rom 11:14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

Tell me. How does Paul think he can provoke the non-elect, blinded by God, "Esau" that God "hates" prepared for destruction Jew to the point of salvation?

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Rom 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Not only can the non-elect be provoked to turn and be saved, the saved should fear being cut-off!
Note that God is able to graft them in again. Man doesn't graft himself in, God does it. But God can only graft those in who do not continue in unbelief. So there is the action of God and the belief of man (a condition to be met). Paul's own words refute a Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9.

You should be able to see why I am unconvinced of a Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9. You've got the non-elect, blinded by God coming to faith! But I thought only the elect were going to be saved? That's why I believe that one can move "in Christ" making them elect in Christ, and one can also fall from that position. I believe it because Paul teaches it in the very context and flow of thought of Romans 9-11!

How then can the non-elect, blinded by God come to faith?

The Jews that come to faith at a later date as Paul mentions have to be among the elect, simple as that.

 

[Arc]

The Jews that come to faith at a later date as Paul mentions have to be among the elect, simple as that.

I thought God chooses the elect and this number is set from the foundation of the world? How is it then that Paul holds out hope that the non-elect Jews, blinded by God can be provoked to jealousy so that they may be saved? How can you provoke someone to the gospel if it's all God's doing?

 

[green wolverine]

I thought God chooses the elect and this number is set from the foundation of the world? How is it then that Paul holds out hope that the non-elect Jews, blinded by God can be provoked to jealousy so that they may be saved? How can you provoke someone to the gospel if it's all God's doing?

He does. I think you're trying to force something into a passage of Scripture that isn't there just so you can say 'Gotcha!!' to a Calvinist. It isn't going to work.

If God chooses to 'provoke' someone to jealousy that they may be saved, it's because that's how He chooses to call that person or group of people. He works differently in different peoples' lives.

Try not to overthink the subject....

 

[Arc]

If God chooses to 'provoke' someone to jealousy that they may be saved, it's because that's how He chooses to call that person or group of people. He works differently in different peoples' lives.

The problem is that the text actually says the opposite of what you have stated:

Rom 11:14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy [those who are] my flesh and save some of them.

There is no mention of God provoking them. There is mention of Paul provoking them, through the Gentiles he converts. And to be clear, Paul is trying to provoke those of his own flesh. In other words Jews. The very same Jews mentioned in this context:

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written: "GOD HAS GIVEN THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES THAT THEY SHOULD NOT SEE AND EARS THAT THEY SHOULD NOT HEAR, TO THIS VERY DAY."

God is mentioned. He is the one that blinded them. They are those who are not the elect. Yet Paul is eager to try and provoke them so some of them may be saved.

I would very much like someone to explain these texts in their context, and not try to overlook their obvious implications. Especially when we continue on to verses 17-23 of chapter 11.

Try not to overthink the subject....

Just reading it in context, that's all. Not really doing much thinking other than letting the text speak for itself.

 

[heymikey80]

I would very much like someone to explain these texts in their context, and not try to overlook their obvious implications. Especially when we continue on to verses 17-23 of chapter 11.

I think Paul's trying to answer why those who naturally should receive the promise, aren't receiving it for the present.

Romans 9 explains God's legitimate authority to ignore nature, education, and pick people to show mercy on, and to harden others.

Romans 10 explains the mistake of self-righteousness and explains righteousness by faith.

Romans 11 explains how God has worked out His election. Paul seems to be grappling with the question of why there should be a natural heir to God's grace, if such people are also hardened.

The reason is again, God's choice. God's decided to harden some of Israel -- a partial hardening, not in numbers primarily but partially in time -- while [time-based: "until"] the Gentiles are brought in. Paul sees this as a temporary excursus that's going to be corrected, because as a group Israel is chosen -- not all in the group, but as a group Israel doesn't have a reasonable identity outside their election by God. As it was with Elijah, right now only a remnant of Israel are being brought in.

So to me Romans 11 reads with Israel as a group, a beloved group operating in history. At the time Israel has generally failed to obtain the righteousness it sought; but the elect (in & out of Israel) have obtained it.

Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened 11:7
​

Israel is considered hardened while the Gentiles are entering. But that's partial -- in time, after the populus of Gentiles has come in, God will show mercy to Israel again.

a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 11:25
​

That doesn't destroy God's election of Israel (as a group, as individuals, too) in the future (Paul says it: "all Israel shall be saved"), it simply says the group Israel is going through an "Elijah" time of remnanting.

As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 11:28
​

This could be an awe-inspiring contradiction to 9:7-8, but it can't be. I mean, they're minutes apart in dictation. No, Paul's talking about a people who have rejected Christ, but who still think they're relying on God. They're a people who're blinded to the lifeline thrown to them, but who still believe their rescue will come. Romans 10 seems to reflect this, too -- Paul wants this stuff preached to the Jewish people -- which could be why Romans 10 is slipped in the middle, here. He saw the most fertile ground for Christianity, back in Jewish hearts.

 

[heymikey80]

The problem is that the text actually says the opposite of what you have stated:

Rom 11:14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy [those who are] my flesh and save some of them.

There is no mention of God provoking them. There is mention of Paul provoking them, through the Gentiles he converts.

There is a mention, as this is an echo of Rom 10:19:

But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, "I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation;with a foolish nation I will make you angry." Rom 10:19

Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Rom 11:11.
​

I doubt Paul means here that he has brought salvation to the Gentiles to make Israel jeaolous. I'm pretty sure rather, that he means salvation has come by God's mercy so as to make Israel jealous. And then at 11:14 Paul is enthusiastically embracing this provocation God instituted to save some of his kinsmen.

 

[Arc]

The reason is again, God's choice. God's decided to harden some of Israel -- a partial hardening, not in numbers primarily but partially in time -- while [time-based: "until"] the Gentiles are brought in. Paul sees this as a temporary excursus that's going to be corrected, because as a group Israel is chosen -- not all in the group, but as a group Israel doesn't have a reasonable identity outside their election by God. As it was with Elijah, right now only a remnant of Israel are being brought in.

So to me Romans 11 reads with Israel as a group, a beloved group operating in history. At the time Israel has generally failed to obtain the righteousness it sought; but the elect (in & out of Israel) have obtained it.

Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened 11:7
​

Israel is considered hardened while the Gentiles are entering. But that's partial -- in time, after the populus of Gentiles has come in, God will show mercy to Israel again.

a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 11:25​

I understand what you are saying but I see the partial hardening as just that; partial. Meaning some Jews were hardened and the elect were not.
This seems to agree with Rom 11:7.

Also, Paul reasoned this way:
Rom 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.

Paul himself is an Israelite, so the type of hardening doesn't seem to be a "now-until" hardening but a "some are some are not" hardening. The word "until" does lead some to believe as you state but it could just mean "until God's plan is complete and all who are going to be saved are saved"

One reason I have reached this conclusion is the logic Paul employs:
-Some Jews are hardened
-Gentiles make Jews jealous
-This leads to Jewish conversions

If one holds the view that "until" means Gentiles are taken away and them more Jews get saved after that event, it seems to undermine Paul's reasoning. Paul's is hoping the Gentile element in the world will cause a turning in the Jews. If the Gentiles are removed (i.e. pre-tib rapture) then there is no more Gentiles to make the hardened Jews envy.

But the issue is complicated because of the eschatological element to consider.

There is a mention, as this is an echo of Rom 10:19:

But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, "I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation;with a foolish nation I will make you angry." Rom 10:19

Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Rom 11:11.
​

I doubt Paul means here that he has brought salvation to the Gentiles to make Israel jeaolous. I'm pretty sure rather, that he means salvation has come by God's mercy so as to make Israel jealous. And then at 11:14 Paul is enthusiastically embracing this provocation God instituted to save some of his kinsmen.

I should have placed the underlining for Romans 11:14 under "and save some of them". This is the significant point Paul is bringing to the Rom 10:19 remark. Paul does state that it is his hope to save some through this jealous attitude.

Following the flow of thought from Rom 10 into Rom 11 (remember the chapter divisions are artificial) Paul concludes all he has just said in Romans 10 with the comment: I say then, has God cast away His people? and his response: God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew & What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. (Rom 11:7)

I'm still puzzled as to why Paul is holding out hope for those other than the ones God foreknew. Your previous comment that Paul is showing God's revealed mercy and the possibility of a future "all Israel will be saved" still leaves my original concern unaddressed. The fact that Paul states these people he is holding out hope for, people of his own flesh, are indeed not-elect. How is it then if the elect are the ones Christ died to redeem and no others that these people can be saved? Do they become elect & foreknown at their conversion? These people certainly were not elect & foreknown in 11:2 & 11:7.

 

[heymikey80]

I understand what you are saying but I see the partial hardening as just that; partial. Meaning some Jews were hardened and the elect were not.
This seems to agree with Rom 11:7.

The conflict there is with 11:28. There the elect "are enemies of God for your sake". That creates a flat contradiction -- unless the people in the group are presently enemies of God, but the group is elect, and thus when populated with different people, elect people, they will be saved at a later time.

This has already happened in Israel's history -- the wandering in the wilderness, the remnant in Elijah, the Babylonian Exile.

Also, Paul reasoned this way:
Rom 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.

Paul himself is an Israelite, so the type of hardening doesn't seem to be a "now-until" hardening but a "some are some are not" hardening. The word "until" does lead some to believe as you state but it could just mean "until God's plan is complete and all who are going to be saved are saved"

Paul's pointing out his people are not forsaken. But they are hardened as a people at the same time as the elect obtained it.

One reason I have reached this conclusion is the logic Paul employs:
-Some Jews are hardened
-Gentiles make Jews jealous
-This leads to Jewish conversions

If one holds the view that "until" means Gentiles are taken away and them more Jews get saved after that event, it seems to undermine Paul's reasoning. Paul's is hoping the Gentile element in the world will cause a turning in the Jews. If the Gentiles are removed (i.e. pre-tib rapture) then there is no more Gentiles to make the hardened Jews envy.

I'm not premil, so I don't really have this model. Paul's point is that the existence of Gentile Christians draws Jewish believers.

Paul actually says the converse is the entire salvation of the Jewish people once the fulness of Gentiles comes in (11:25-26)

I should have placed the underlining for Romans 11:14 under "and save some of them". This is the significant point Paul is bringing to the Rom 10:19 remark. Paul does state that it is his hope to save some through this jealous attitude.

Right -- but his contrary position is that, once the fulness of Gentiles has come in, then all Israel shall be saved. It's not that the presence of Gentiles is necessary to evangelize Jews. It's that for the present, Jews are evangelized through jealousy toward Gentiles.

I'm still puzzled as to why Paul is holding out hope for those other than the ones God foreknew. Your previous comment that Paul is showing God's revealed mercy and the possibility of a future "all Israel will be saved" still leaves my original concern unaddressed.

I hope it's becoming clear. When the time and group concepts are recognized in Romans 11, it's clear that the individual elect in Israel are still promised to be saved in the future, through OT prophecy as well as through Paul himself.

The fact that Paul states these people he is holding out hope for, people of his own flesh, are indeed not-elect. How is it then if the elect are the ones Christ died to redeem and no others that these people can be saved? Do they become elect & foreknown at their conversion? These people certainly were not elect & foreknown in 11:2 & 11:7.

First off, I don't have a problem with the initial conflict. Of course Paul has a concern for his own people, kinsmen. Don't you?

But second, I don't see the inconsistency. The group of Israel is naturally exposed to the grace of God, so it's logical to expect that exposure to continue, and continue to have an effect on a remnant as God sees fit to provide. Paul sees that a remnant still needs evangelism ala Rom 10. Plus, the effect of consistent appearance of Gentile Christians leaves Jewish people confronting a particular oddity: that Jesus fits the Old Testament model of the Messiah.

And finally, there're Old Testament prophecies of the entire salvation of Israel. That's what Paul points to at the end of 11.