Romans 8:9-10

[PollyJetix]

I saw something in Romans 8 that lit my fire...
Look at this passage:

Romans 8:5-11

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Now, this the the definition of the word "BUT":

conjunction
1. used to introduce something contrasting with what has already been mentioned.
synonyms: yet, nevertheless, nonetheless, even so, however, still, notwithstanding, despite that, in spite of that, for all that, all the same, just the same;

Now, go and notice all the times this little word "but" is used in the above passage.
Do you see how it is ALWAYS used in the same way?
This is a study of contrasting spiritual ideas.

Now, we know that the verse divisions are not inspired of God. They were an invention of Robert Estienne in the 1550's, and he was on a journey by horse... I think the horse stumbled in the middle of verse 9 and the pen landed a half sentence later.

If you read it this way, it makes it sound a little different, even though the words stay the same:

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
10 Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Do you see what I see?
Paul is contrasting 3 different possible states of being.
1. having not the spirit of Christ. This is the unregenerate state. None of His.
2. Christ in you. Then you have the spirit of Christ. And in this state, you are like this:
....a. the body is dead because of sin
....b. but your spirit is alive, because of righteousness.
(This is Romans 7:20-25 all over again!)
And the third state is this:
3. The Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelling in us. This causes a big change: That same spirit will quicken (put life into) your mortal bodies (not your future immortal bodies) by His Spirit that dwelleth in you. (This effectively addresses the problem of Romans 7!)

Notice, there are two spirits here:
The spirit of Christ.
And the Spirit of Him that raised up Christ from the dead.

The Spirit of Christ is NOT the same thing as the spirit of Him that raised him from the dead.

At the baptism of Christ, the Spirit of the Father descended upon Jesus.

Before his baptism, Jesus had a spirit of his own, as a human, did he not?
At his baptism, did he lose his human spirit? No.
He remained a body, soul, and spirit, but became indwelt and anointed by the Holy Ghost.

And Christ was raised from the dead by the Father, via the power of the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father. He is the Spirit that raised up Christ from the dead.

Therefore, if you are born again, but have not yet received the baptism of the Holy Ghost (the spirit of the Father) then you only have the spirit of Christ in you. You are His, but you walk in defeat, unable to rise above the pull of sin. Your body and your spirit are at constant war, and you feel desperate to find deliverance from bondage to the body of death. ( Romans 7:24 and Romans 8:10 )

 

[Zayin7]

I'm seeing what your trying to say 're not having been baptised in the holy spirit. But differentiating the holy spirit from the spirit of Christ is 1 not sitting peaceably and 2 not supported by any other scripture I know of. For me that alerts a bit of a problem. The scripture never mentions any doctrine only once.

 

[PollyJetix]

All humans are body, soul, and spirit. This is borne out by the Scriptures.

Do you then think, that, as a human on earth, Jesus, the second Person of the Trinity, was, in spirit, actually one of the other Persons of the Trinity?

That to me is illogical.

 

[Zayin7]

All humans are body, soul, and spirit. This is borne out by the Scriptures.

Do you then think, that, as a human on earth, Jesus, the second Person of the Trinity, was, in spirit, actually one of the other Persons of the Trinity?

That to me is illogical.

what is illogical methinks is to begin by using the "trinity" as a basis .
the trinity in itself is a man made teaching (pieced together from scripture for sure ).. but never itself IN scripture .the godhead is but not "the Trinity"
Jesus is the word of god spoken out from the heart of the father ..born forth hence "son" but then he returned to the father from whence he came .

the trinity teaching ( though not the topic ) is what divides god into 3 concepts and is what too many people get fixated on . the word made flesh ,for me gives me a much clearer comprehension of who god is who the son is.

i digress -short for time right now ,so, not thinking things through well .

is he both fully god and fully man at the same time ? yes and no .. lol there, that wrecks the cake .

 

[PollyJetix]

what is illogical methinks is to begin by using the "trinity" as a basis .
the trinity in itself is a man made teaching (pieced together from scripture for sure ).. but never itself IN scripture .the godhead is but not "the Trinity"
Jesus is the word of god spoken out from the heart of the father ..born forth hence "son" but then he returned to the father from whence he came .

the trinity teaching ( though not the topic ) is what divides god into 3 concepts and is what too many people get fixated on . the word made flesh ,for me gives me a much clearer comprehension of who god is who the son is.

i digress -short for time right now ,so, not thinking things through well .

is he both fully god and fully man at the same time ? yes and no .. lol there, that wrecks the cake .

Ah... I see... are you "Jesus-only?"

 

[Zayin7]

Ah... I see... are you "Jesus-only?"

ouh Noooo lol absolutely not . i just don't desire to limit my comprehension to the doctrines of our frailty so many times the word of god says BOTH ... but we then filter it down to the version that fits our preferred lean .i dont think its right to do that on maters we dont yet fully comprehend .

 

[PollyJetix]

okay. But I think it's pretty clear that Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Ghost are all three clearly defined separate persons. And it's pretty clear that all three are God... one God.

When Jesus was praying in Gethsemane, He prayed to the Father, "Not my will, but Thine, be done." That's two separate wills.
It was the will of his flesh. Part of the earth-bound soul, so closely tied to the body and all the pains and griefs we feel.

I think it's pretty clear that Jesus was constructed just like every other human being. He was the new Adam. The new Creation of man. He was in every respect made just as we are, yet without sin.

And before the Spirit came upon Him at the Jordan, he was just like the rest of us. He did no miracles before His baptism. Why? Because He limited Himself by being 100% human (while yet being 100% God, of course.)

Jesus was created body, soul, and spirit. And His spirit was not the Holy Spirit. Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit as a person, separate from Himself, who would come after He went away.

It's easy to just say, "It's all over our heads" and sit back and not care to dig into what the Word says about the Trinity.

I believe the Word is very clear, that the spirit of Christ and the Holy Ghost are two different members of the Trinity.
Which shines a bright, clarifying light on Romans 8:9-11.

 

[Zayin7]

O

okay. But I think it's pretty clear that Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Ghost are all three clearly defined separate persons. And it's pretty clear that all three are God... one God.

When Jesus was praying in Gethsemane, He prayed to the Father, "Not my will, but Thine, be done." That's two separate wills.
It was the will of his flesh. Part of the earth-bound soul, so closely tied to the body and all the pains and griefs we feel.

I think it's pretty clear that Jesus was constructed just like every other human being. He was the new Adam. The new Creation of man. He was in every respect made just as we are, yet without sin.

And before the Spirit came upon Him at the Jordan, he was just like the rest of us. He did no miracles before His baptism. Why? Because He limited Himself by being 100% human (while yet being 100% God, of course.)

Jesus was created body, soul, and spirit. And His spirit was not the Holy Spirit. Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit as a person, separate from Himself, who would come after He went away.

It's easy to just say, "It's all over our heads" and sit back and not care to dig into what the Word says about the Trinity.

I believe the Word is very clear, that the spirit of Christ and the Holy Ghost are two different members of the Trinity.
Which shines a bright, clarifying light on Romans 8:9-11.

The problem here is you've diverse into a number of topics,none of which was my intention to disagree with.But rather to explore.
But back to the holy spirit being different to the spirit of Christ... That's a stretch a little too far.as I see no other supporting scripture for that

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

okay. But I think it's pretty clear that Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Ghost are all three clearly defined separate persons. And it's pretty clear that all three are God... one God.

When Jesus was praying in Gethsemane, He prayed to the Father, "Not my will, but Thine, be done." That's two separate wills.
It was the will of his flesh. Part of the earth-bound soul, so closely tied to the body and all the pains and griefs we feel.

I think it's pretty clear that Jesus was constructed just like every other human being. He was the new Adam. The new Creation of man. He was in every respect made just as we are, yet without sin.

And before the Spirit came upon Him at the Jordan, he was just like the rest of us. He did no miracles before His baptism. Why? Because He limited Himself by being 100% human (while yet being 100% God, of course.)

Jesus was created body, soul, and spirit. And His spirit was not the Holy Spirit. Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit as a person, separate from Himself, who would come after He went away.

It's easy to just say, "It's all over our heads" and sit back and not care to dig into what the Word says about the Trinity.

I believe the Word is very clear, that the spirit of Christ and the Holy Ghost are two different members of the Trinity.
Which shines a bright, clarifying light on Romans 8:9-11.

I'll add my bit here.
I believe that the spirit of Christ is separate from the Holy Spirit, therefore I agree with you. If a person has the spirit of Christ he or she has the Christlike nature. This comes when a person is born again. The person who does not have the spirit of Christ cannot be born again because they don't have that new heart that comes with the born again state. I don't call it an experience because being born again happens in the spirit of a person, not the sensual part. Experiences happen in the sensual part and they can be the response of what happens in the spirit.

The spirit is dead before conversion. That is why a person is dead in their trespasses and sins. But when a person is born again, the spirit is made alive, and the spirit that is made alive is the Christ spirit. It is not Christ Himself, but the spirit of a person is made Christlike to the extent that it is recognised as the spirit of Christ. It is that spirit that causes a person to become Christlike in their behaviour as the sanctification process develops.

It is the Holy Spirit who makes the spirit of a person alive. That is why the scripture says that we are born of...the Spirit. The spirit of Christ cannot therefore be the Holy Spirit because He is the agent and not the spirit that He enlivens in a person.

This is where some get confused as to when a person is filled with the Holy Spirit. The filling of the Holy Spirit is an enduement of power and He lives with the spirit of Christ within us. But there are not three spirits in us, because our spirit, which was dead, and now made alive is the spirit of Christ. So it is only one spirit.

This is interesting because when Paul said that he prayed with his spirit, he is actually praying from the Christ-spirit in him, inspired by the Holy Spirit also indwelling him.

I believe that when the Holy Spirit fell on those ones in the Book of Acts, they were born again, their spirits were made alive and became the Christ-spirit in them, and then the Holy Spirit entered them at the same time, giving them the power to witness mightily for Christ.

It is our Christ-spirit, or Christlike-character-spirit in us that enables us to say Christ in us, the hope of glory.

In summary, what I'm saying is, our spirit is the spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit co-dwells with that spirit in us.

 

[PollyJetix]

I'll add my bit here.
I believe that the spirit of Christ is separate from the Holy Spirit, therefore I agree with you. If a person has the spirit of Christ he or she has the Christlike nature. This comes when a person is born again. The person who does not have the spirit of Christ cannot be born again because they don't have that new heart that comes with the born again state. I don't call it an experience because being born again happens in the spirit of a person, not the sensual part. Experiences happen in the sensual part and they can be the response of what happens in the spirit.

The spirit is dead before conversion. That is why a person is dead in their trespasses and sins. But when a person is born again, the spirit is made alive, and the spirit that is made alive is the Christ spirit. It is not Christ Himself, but the spirit of a person is made Christlike to the extent that it is recognised as the spirit of Christ. It is that spirit that causes a person to become Christlike in their behaviour as the sanctification process develops.

It is the Holy Spirit who makes the spirit of a person alive. That is why the scripture says that we are born of...the Spirit. The spirit of Christ cannot therefore be the Holy Spirit because He is the agent and not the spirit that He enlivens in a person.

This is where some get confused as to when a person is filled with the Holy Spirit. The filling of the Holy Spirit is an enduement of power and He lives with the spirit of Christ within us. But there are not three spirits in us, because our spirit, which was dead, and now made alive is the spirit of Christ. So it is only one spirit.

This is interesting because when Paul said that he prayed with his spirit, he is actually praying from the Christ-spirit in him, inspired by the Holy Spirit also indwelling him.

I believe that when the Holy Spirit fell on those ones in the Book of Acts, they were born again, their spirits were made alive and became the Christ-spirit in them, and then the Holy Spirit entered them at the same time, giving them the power to witness mightily for Christ.

It is our Christ-spirit, or Christlike-character-spirit in us that enables us to say Christ in us, the hope of glory.

In summary, what I'm saying is, our spirit is the spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit co-dwells with that spirit in us.

Wow... that's different.
I'm not so sure I can concur.
I guess I take it literally, that "I in you" means literally that the spirit of Christ literally comes into us. As He said in Revelation, that if any man would open the door, he would come in to him.

 

[Zayin7]

Ok so are we now opposing the trinity for a 4th ?
I know I'm not. And again .this is all based on singular scripture .never a good foundation .for all the doctrines of God are validated both from within the word of a god and by the holyspirit who inspired their writings.

 

[PollyJetix]

Ok so are we now opposing the trinity for a 4th ?
I know I'm not. And again .this is all based on singular scripture .never a good foundation .for all the doctrines of God are validated both from within the word of a god and by the holyspirit who inspired their writings.

Of course not. I believe in the Trinity. Each of the Three Persons of the Trinity are distinct and separate persons. Which means the spirit of Jesus, as a human being, was not the Holy Ghost.

 

[Zayin7]

The spirit of me Is me. He is the son .
They are one .
There is no scriptural basis to add in a 4th .and though not intended ,this is what it does.

 

[PollyJetix]

The spirit of me Is me. He is the son .
They are one .
There is no scriptural basis to add in a 4th .and though not intended ,this is what it does.

No, it does not. The Spirit of Christ is Christ Himself. Since he is no longer in his fleshly body, he is now pure Spirit.

When we receive Christ, we receive Him as a Spirit. He is now "the Spirit of Christ."
And this is the state of one who is only born again, but not yet baptized in the Holy Ghost.
The Romans 7 condition.

 

[Zayin7]

No, it does not. The Spirit of Christ is Christ Himself. Since he is no longer in his fleshly body, he is now pure Spirit.

When we receive Christ, we receive Him as a Spirit. He is now "the Spirit of Christ."
And this is the state of one who is only born again, but not yet baptized in the Holy Ghost.
The Romans 7 condition.

Yes he is christ.one with the father and he is “with“ the father and he sent his holy Spirit .he did not send many of himself but he sent the Holy spirit. Thats what i mean . scripture supports fully that he returned to the father and then sent the Holy Spirit. It doesnt support that he sent himself back here . the Holy spirit is the holy spirit of the father and of the son .they are one.

 

[PollyJetix]

Yes he is christ.one with the father and he is “with“ the father and he sent his holy Spirit .he did not send many of himself but he sent the Holy spirit. Thats what i mean . scripture supports fully that he returned to the father and then sent the Holy Spirit. It doesnt support that he sent himself back here . the Holy spirit is the holy spirit of the father and of the son .they are one.

My goodness. we are going in circles.
You said once that your spirit was yourself.
And you said you are also a Trinitiarian.

So how can you say that Christ is the Holy Ghost?

 

[Zayin7]

My goodness. we are going in circles.
You said once that your spirit was yourself.
And you said you are also a Trinitiarian.

So how can you say that Christ is the Holy Ghost?

I didnt. But lets slow up.we are dealing with concepts and comprehensions.i didnt mean to be brash .
Its just that there is no other scriptural basis for recieving the holy spirit AND the spirit of Christ.

Since jesus is the word of God ..litetally the speaking of God..become flesh .his nature is built into us by the holy spirit. And we are transformed into his image (made like he is)by the holy Spirit. The singular reference to recieving the spirit of the annointed one Jesus..is referencing recieving the same spirit jesus recieved .(being the holy Spirit. )

 

[PollyJetix]

Zayin7, Look at Acts 8:5-17.
Phillip went to Samaria preaching the gospel.
Many believed, and they were baptized.
Would you say they were born again?
if they were not yet born again, then their baptism was not valid.

But we see that when the apostles came, they never rebaptized them.
Therefore, their earlier baptisms, under Phillip, were valid.
And on that basis, we can say they were truly born again.

HOW then, was it that they had not yet received the Holy Ghost?

I am not asking you WHY.
I am not asking you the reasons why God made it happen this way... even if it was the only time in all of history it happened...

I am not talking about the why.

I am talking about the HOW.

HOW did those Samaritan believers become born again, without receiving the Holy Ghost?