Romans 8:22 - A problem for "old earthers"?

[Avenger]

In Romans 8:22 we read from Today's New International Version that:

We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

​

Just what is Paul referring to here? What caused the whole creation to be groaning up to now?

You see, if you reject the Genesis account altogether or believe in millions of years of death and suffering before Adam and Eve then you have to admit that Adam's sin didn't really do anything to this creation and that places the blame on God for creating this entire universe to be "groaning as in the pains of childbirth."

I hope that this thread will be an informative one filled with useful discussion.

Peace be with you all.

 

[LewisWildermuth]

A more interesting question is what new theology has led you to believe that this verse would be a problem for your fellow Christians?

 

[PaladinValer]

Why don't you read it in context first? It has nothing to do with Creation but it has to do with the End.

Invalid argument.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

In Romans 8:22 we read from Today's New International Version that:We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.Just what is Paul referring to here? What caused the whole creation to be groaning up to now?

You see, if you reject the Genesis account altogether or believe in millions of years of death and suffering before Adam and Eve then you have to admit that Adam's sin didn't really do anything to this creation and that places the blame on God for creating this entire universe to be "groaning as in the pains of childbirth."

I hope that this thread will be an informative one filled with useful discussion.

Peace be with you all.

Rom 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
Rom 8:19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for {our} adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

Rom 8:22 is an anthropomorphic metaphor. Creation is being compared to a woman in childbirth. A direct allusion to the promise of God to Eve that childbirth would be painful. What is being born? Christians, the sons of God, who are adopted children, moving from slavery to the freedom of God. But it is not all at once, partly now, the full measure only at the Final Judgement.

If the childbirth is at the Last Judgement, extending the metaphor, when did Creation get pregnant? From when is Creation groaning? It doesn't say. Could it be from the time of Eve, when the first prophecy of Jesus in the heel and serpent is given? could it be from before the Creation the World when God decided what was going to happen? Could it be from the Resurrection, when in the fulness of time, salvation became a reality?

How do you decide between the alternatives, or even more that have been proposed over the 2 millennium?


What is clear is that the verse doesn't say anything about death before the fall, nor how long ago Creation occurred, nor really anything about the historicity of Adam and Eve. It is a complex metaphor that has lots of potential answers, not just one.

 

[Avenger]

PaladinValer:

"Why don't you read it in context first? It has nothing to do with Creation but it has to do with the End."

​

I do read this in context - your comment I find ironic coming from your evolutionary point of view, but at any rate. A little hypocritical? But at any rate...

Here in this passage what Paul is stating that sin will never have the last word and that along with God's people, the Earth will be redeemed by the Creator.

Now, hence the question I asked. This whole passage describes that there is something wrong with the world today for God to restore it... So, if death and suffering have always been here since the beginning, then what effect - if anything - did Adam's Fall have on the whole creation? Why is this creation being subjected to frustration and why is it in a bondage to decay (Romans 8:20-21)?

For example, I have the New International Version Disciple's Study Bible and in several commentaries on this passage we read:

Romans 8:18-25. CREATION, New Creation - Sin will never have the last word. God made the Earth as a habitation for His people. The presence of sin brought on decay and frustration of purposes (Genesis 3:17-19). Along with His people, the Earth will be redeemed by the Creator.

Redeemed to what? Back to how it was in the beginning - this is known as the "restoration of all things," which also denies evolution.

Romans 8:18-23. LAST THINGS, Creation's Redemption - God's eschatological salvation will include the whole created order. Just as the created order was affected by the advent of human sin, so it will be by future human redemption. A cosmic liberation from decay awaits the final, full redemption of the children of God. The redemption of nature is to be associated with that of believers' bodies. Three statements underlie the eager expectation of creation: because of human sin, God subjected the created order to frustration (Genesis 3:17-19); the created order is presently in bondage to decay; and it has been and yet continues to groan with birth pains. The analogy of travail suggests the coming to be of something new. Creation is not what it should be due to human sin. It cannot serve its true function of glorifying God. It decays and thus goes nowhere. It is temporary rather than eternal. It suffers pain rather than being the arena of peace. It can look forward to a new glory when God creates a new Earth.

Romans 8:20. EVIL AND SUFFERING, Natural Origin - The created world order, the environment of human life, is not perfect as it was created (Genesis 1). It is a frustrated order cursed because of human sin (Genesis 3). God's ultimate salvation includes ope for the created order. What we refer to as natural evil will one day vanish. Storms and catastrophes will no longer threaten us. Pain and laborious work seeking to make the Earth fertile will cease. The enmity between the human and animal world will vanish.

Hopefully now, you should be able to see that the whole hope for the future is based on the fact that this world is not what it is meant to be.

My assertion is that this denies evolutionary theory - why? Because this passage strongly implies that man's sin caused the creation to be "subjected to frustration" and to be in "bondage to decay" as well as "groaning as in the pains of child-birth." If such things like enmity between the human and animal world has always been here, and death and suffering have been here right from the beginning millions of years before Adam's sin, then one must question what sin did to the world if it was already like this. The situation is even worse for those who reject Adam and Eve altogether.

You see, as a result of both positions, God - not man - is to blame for the creation being the way that it is, which incidently a fall out would be that there is nothing wrong with the Earth and thus there is no need for restortation to take place.

I thought it was a very basic question that everyone could answer considering all major commentaries come to the same conclusion as well. To be "brutally" blunt: I question you people on this sub-forum and just how open-minded you are and whether any real discussion can occur here. It appears to me that your religious faith in evolution has blinded your judgment.

It is clear now that further discussion with you people is pointless.

 

[Assyrian]

You see, as a result of both positions, God - not man - is to blame for the creation being the way that it is

Isn't this exactly what Paul is saying? Rom 8:20 for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope... The subjection to futility was God's idea, his decision, his will, it was not the result of the will or decision of creation.

There is no mention in the passage about 'sin' or 'the fall' or any suggestion the bondage to decay came as a result of the actions of Adam and Eve, so why should the passage be any problem for an old earth?

I agree it is the traditional interpretation of Romans 8 and the one we will probably find in a lot of commentaries, but if we are going to discuss what scripture actually says, then the traditional interpretation is going to have to be backed up by scripture rather than used as an appeal to authority.

 

[Avenger]

"Isn't this exactly what Paul is saying? Rom 8:20 for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope... The subjection to futility was God's idea, his decision, his will, it was not the result of the will or decision of creation."
​

And God subjected the whole creation to futility because of man's sin as God warned He would. Hence, it is really our fault that the world is the way that it is and not that of God's. It is only if God created this whole universe like it is now that it is God's fault and makes Him the sadest sicko in the universe that is totally inconsistent with a good God of love and mercy.

"There is no mention in the passage about 'sin' or 'the fall' or any suggestion the bondage to decay came as a result of the actions of Adam and Eve, so why should the passage be any problem for an old earth?"
​

If you truly read my previous post you would not be stating such question as I have already answered it above.

 

[stumpjumper]

Romans 8:22 is actually a passage used in scriptural expositions by some process theologians... It compares creation, salvation, and redemption to a natural process (childbirth)...

Jesus made the same comparison and there are passages in Revelation that and some other of Paul's writings that state roughly the same thing...

Also, Genesis says that creation was made "good" not perfect.

 

[Assyrian]

And God subjected the whole creation to futility because of man's sin as God warned He would. Hence, it is really our fault that the world is the way that it is and not that of God's. It is only if God created this whole universe like it is now that it is God's fault and makes Him the sadest sicko in the universe that is totally inconsistent with a good God of love and mercy.

It is amazing the way YECs who supposedly love and honour God, speak about him when he doesn't fit their preconceptions. The 'sadest sicko in the universe'? God? Of course you probably think it is much more honourable and just for God to condemn the whole of creation, from the aardvark to the zebra to lives of misery suffering and death for a sin they did not commit, a sin committed by a completely different species.

Paul does give a reason for the bondage to decay in Romans 8, but it is nothing to do with the fall.

If you truly read my previous post you would not be stating such question as I have already answered it above.

Yes I read it, but it is based on the presupposition that the bondage to decay came as a result of the fall. What you need to do is establish a basis for that view, before you use it to knock evolution or an old earth.

 

[shernren]

Okay, let's take a step back and examine the foundations of this argument. Answer me these two questions:

1. How do you know this passage refers to animal suffering and death?
2. Is animal suffering and death bad, and in what sense?

And then think about those while answering this third:

3. Why can't a perfect creation have animal suffering and death?

It can be a bit hard to follow at first if you've only heard of evolution from creationists, but do try.

 

[jereth]

Hi Avenger, welcome to CF Origins Theology. As you've seen, when you post something against TEs you need to be prepared for prompt and forthright responses. This may be a reflection on the quality of your question or point, but more often it is a reflection on the simple fact that it is hard to second-guess a TE

Something that gets me is the way YECs repeatedly bring out the magic "trump card" -- the argument that TEs have never ever considered, and if we had considered it there's no way we'd be TEs. Please be aware that most of the time we have thought through our beliefs as well as you have, and there's very little that can take us by surprise.

Just what is Paul referring to here? What caused the whole creation to be groaning up to now?

Define "groaning".

Groaning = bad weather?
Groaning = volcanoes?
Groaning = earthquakes?
Groaning = storms, lightning strikes, hurricanes, tornadoes?
Groaning = forest fires?

Does the Bible actually explain how creation is "groaning", or does it only say that it is groaning?

Why should we then jump to the conclusion that:
Groaning = animal death?

Also see shenren's response above. The key here is to examine your assumptions.