Romans 8:17 PROVES Jesus is NOT God!

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dsa

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Der Alter said:
So is my argument unreasonable? If one attempts to interpret the scriptures in an unbiased way one does not make assumptions. I answered those assumptions. Also I have studied my faith at the post graduate level and my beliefs and my doctrines conform to the record of the faith and practice of the early church. Unlike so many people who are followers of sects which came into existence in the mid to late 19th century, or later.

Your argument is not unreasonable, but it seems to me that a face-value reading of the statement would probably lend itself towards a different interpretation.

Der Alter said:
"In addition to the verse Lee references, remember that Jesus didn't "consider equality with God something to be grasped." If Jesus himself wouldn't, why would we?" I'm not sure what you are arguing here. That passage continues that Jesus humbled Himself but He was returned to His previous glory.

In regard to Philippians 2:6, I'm more focused on what Jesus is said to have believed, than Paul's interpretation. Jesus didn't try to put himself on equal footing with God, and his humility resulted in his being rewarded by God.

Remember, it says "God exalted him," is Jesus exalting himself? This is one of countless verses where the concept of the Trinity does seem to fit into the New Testament story... Also, where does the verse say "previous" glory?
 
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Der Alte

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dsa said:
In regard to Philippians 2:6, I'm more focused on what Jesus is said to have believed, than Paul's interpretation. Jesus didn't try to put himself on equal footing with God, and his humility resulted in his being rewarded by God.

Remember, it says "God exalted him," is Jesus exalting himself? This is one of countless verses where the concept of the Trinity does seem to fit into the New Testament story... Also, where does the verse say "previous" glory?

It is not in this passage that God restored Jesus to His previous glory. See Jn 17:5.

While focusing on a particular point, let us not overlook the context. There is a before and after contrast here. Before, Jesus existed in the form of God, equal to God, Her did not grasp or cling to that, "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant." Note from the before Jesus made himself and took on himself. One form, before, another form after. What are the forms? John 1:1 also provides understanding of this passage.

The word translated "form" in this passage is morfh/morphe, it only occurs one other time in the NT, when the disciples were unable to recognize Jesus at the tomb because he appeared in another "morphe" or form.

But a form of the word, appears in Rom 12:2, metamorfow/metamorphoo, where it is translated "transformed." Paul was not telling the Christians, at Rome, to make superficial changes to their outward appearance but to be totally transformed, completely changed. Therefore when Paul used the same root word morfh/morphe, in Philp 2:6, he did NOT mean a superficial outward resemblance.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed [metamorfow/metamorphoo] by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Robertson, Word Pictures in the NT Phi 2:6

Being
(huparchōn). Rather, “existing,” present active participle of huparchō. In the form of God (en morphēi theou). Morphē means the essential attributes as shown in the form. In his preincarnate state Christ possessed the attributes of God and so appeared to those in heaven who saw him. Here is a clear statement by Paul of the deity of Christ.

A prize (harpagmon). Predicate accusative with hēgēsato. Originally words in 'mos signified the act, not the result ('ma). The few examples of harpagmos (Plutarch, etc.) allow it to be understood as equivalent to harpagma, like baptismos and baptisma. That is to say Paul means a prize to be held on to rather than something to be won ("robbery").

To be on an equality with God (to einai isa theoi). Accusative articular infinitive object of hēgēsato, “the being equal with God” (associative instrumental case theōi after isa). Isa is adverbial use of neuter plural with einai as in Rev_21:16.

Emptied himself (heauton ekenōse). First aorist active indicative of kenoō, old verb from kenos, empty. Of what did Christ empty himself? Not of his divine nature. That was impossible. He continued to be the Son of God. There has arisen a great controversy on this word, a Kenosis doctrine. Undoubtedly Christ gave up his environment of glory. He took upon himself limitations of place (space) and of knowledge and of power, though still on earth retaining more of these than any mere man. It is here that men should show restraint and modesty, though it is hard to believe that Jesus limited himself by error of knowledge and certainly not by error of conduct. He was without sin, though tempted as we are. “He stripped himself of the insignia of majesty” (Lightfoot).​
 
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Hey Leute;
Philippians 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, ' form of God , the greek word is morphe and it is difficult to translate, their is no english equivalent to it. what it means is that JEsus was in the image of god, something like that. And equality with God not something to be grasped means that Jesus didnt let all that power and authority that God gave him go to his head. Jesus said "John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. ' Jesus gave all the glory to his father to his god who is god. Some preachers have been given power to heal from god and they have let it go to thier heads and they think they are really somebody. This Jesus did not do. that is the meaning of the verse, in my opinion.
 
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You know, your claims about romans 8:17 are another example of taking a verse from the Bible out of context and twisting it to fit your own doctrine. God actually got me out of bed tonight and told me to read in Romans. I found it extremely convicting. You are speaking of this "Joint-heir" thing as if it makes us equal with Jesus. I don't believe that was what it was saying at all. Neither you or I will be seated at the right hand of God. Just tonight I was thinking about the crucifixtion and how Peter made his executioners crucify him upside down because he did not consider himself worthy to be crucified the same way as our Lord. He didn't want to be remembered as even nearing equality with Jesus, because He is more than a prophet, more than a man--Your words are some of the most hurtful that I have ever read because they degrade Jesus, they attack Him. I'd suggest re-reading Romans in its entirety and asking the Holy Spirit to give you wisdom, spiritual wisdom. THe wisdom of God is foolishness to man, and His ways are not our ways. You can't even hope to understand God without Him giving you that understanding. THat's why we really can't be proud. Jesus has the power to forgive sins. Even the pharisees stated that no one has the power to forgive sins except for God.

In Revelations 14, the name of the Father and of the Lamb are written on the forheads of the 144,000. If Jesus were just a man and not God, or an angel, why would His name be placed with the Father's on the forheads? When John went to bow to an angel in the final chap of rev he said "No, don't do anything like that. I, too, am a servant of Jesus as you are, and as your brothers the prophets are, as well as all those who heed the truth stated in this Book. Worship God alone." Revelations 6 describes 24-elders falling down and worshipping the Lamb. Jesus is described as the alpha and the omega, holy, and worthy--as is God. No other character in the Bible is described as worthy of being worshipped. If Jesus weren't God, the Father wouldn't allow us to worship Him because that would be idolotry. There is only one sin unpardonable, and that is blaspheming the Holy Spirit. If the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are One, then to call one part not God is to suggest that all is not God.

I just pray that by writing this I cause you to investigate further with a softened heart toward the Holy Spirit. I pray that it doesn't cause you to, with hurt pride or righteous anger, harden your heart toward the truth. If you want to say that Jesus isn't God, you'll find a whole slew of different religions outside of Christianity to support that claim. You won't find it in the Word of God.
 
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Ragman

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Those who believe that it is possible for Jesus to have been only man and not God are certainly not unreasonable in asking the question. It is not unreasonable to wonder if from the verse where Jesus says,"Why do you call me good, only God is good" that there may be some insight into the humanity of Christ. My point is, that it is not unreasonable to ask questions, even questions that strike at the foundation of the orthodox Christian faith. Keep asking the questions if your questions are honest and in search of the truth about God.

However, this is not the first time that this question has been asked. It has been asked repeatedly thoughout Christianity's history, and none more completely than at the end of the third century A.D. and the beginning of the 4th century A.D.

Arius, made claim that Jesus was not God for he prayed "to God" and how could he "be God" if he were praying "to God". And that since God was holy God could not be touched with substance such as humanity and creation and sin (borrowing from Plato. Athanasius and other Nicene Fathers saw this as undermining the salvation of mankind. For the issue of the divinity of Jesus is not in a vacuum. Since the message of the Bible is at its most basic level is a message of God's relationship with man and they saw that if Jesus was not then there was no real connection between God and man.

I suggest in the middle of your honest question, you read, along with the scriptures, Athanasius' book "On the Incarnation of the Word of God". It is very small and easy to read.

RM
 
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Der Alter, excellent post. :)

I hate to copy/paste, but I think a post I made elsewhere covers this, so here it is again:

Scriptural proof Jesus is God

Exodus 3:13
Then Moses said to God, "Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you.' Now they may say to me, 'What is His name ?' What shall I say to them?"

3:14
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM "; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.' "

I AM (verb): Hayah = Ato be, become, come to pass, exist, happen

3:15
God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations.

Exodus 6
2 God spoke further to Moses and said to him, "I am the LORD;
3 and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name, LORD, I did not make Myself known to them.

LORD (noun): Jehovah = "the existing One" the proper name of the one true God

What you need to understand is that in the OT, whenever you see "LORD" in all capital letters, that means that in Hebrew, it really says YHWH (also known as Jehovah). This is very important.

The reason English Bibles put the word "LORD" in there, is because of a centuries old tradition. Jews came to the place they would not utter YHWH for fear of taking it in vain. They wouldn't even write it with the vowel sounds (which is why no one knows for sure how to pronounce God's name).

When scripture was read, the reader would substitute the word "Adonai" in place of YHWH to show respect for the Divine name. "Adonai" basically means "lord/master."

About 300 years before the birth of Christ, the Old Testament was translated into Greek in Alexandria, Egypt. This translation is called the Septuagint. Whenever the Greek speaking Jews came across YHWH, they put in the word "Kurios" in it's place. "Kurios" is Greek for "lord/master." As you can see, Adonai and Kurios both mean "Lord" and both words were known and accepted as substitute titles for YHWH/Jehovah. So when our English versions were translated, the tradition continued, which is why you see "Lord" all the time.

So understanding that the Jews used "Lord" in reference to YHWH, let us look at Acts 2:

Acts 2
14 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: "Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words.
15 "For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day;
16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:

21
'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'

Now let me stop right there and say that Peter does a fairly decent Job of quoting Joel. Now I checked out what Joel exactly said in the Hebrew. He said this:

Joel 2
32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD Will be delivered;

Now Joel actually said "whoever calls on the name of YHWH will be delivered" in Hebrew. Understanding (as we have spoke before) that "Adonai" became a spoken substitute title for YHWH as no one wanted to utter it, when Peter quoted Joel to these Jews, he would have said "Adonai" (and when Luke wrote this in Greek, he would have used "Kurios"). So all of these Jews hearing him know Peter is talking about YHWH so far. No problems... But then check this out...

Acts 2:36
"Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified."

This would have stunned the Jewish audience. Peter has already establed that YHWH/Lord is the vehicle for salvation. Peter then goes on to say that Jesus, whom they persecuted, was not only the Messiah, but "Lord" and the Jews knew that meant Jesus is YHWH! This is why Acts goes on to say:

37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"

Paul said the same thing Peter did
:
Philippians 2
2:5
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,

2:6
who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Before Jesus became a man, He was in Heaven as a divine being.

2:7
but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

2:8
Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.


So the pre-existing God took on the form of humanity.


2:9
For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,

2:10
so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

2:11
and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

What Paul is saying is God the Father RESTORED Jesus to His PRE-EXISTING STATUS He had BEFORE He emptied Himself and took on humanity! That is why it gives glory to the Father, because the Father is the one who restored Him by His mighty power! The Father exalted Jesus BACK to what He was previously, and this is made apparent by the Father giving Him back His "family name."

What is the name that is above every name? That should be easy. It is YHWH. Paul goes on to back this up by quoting Isaiah. Look here:

Isaiah
45:21
"Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old ? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.

45:22
"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.

So we have established that YHWH is speaking (obviously) and He says He is the savior, and there are no other gods, only YHWH.


45:23
"I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

Now look again what Paul said:

2:10
so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

2:11
and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

What Paul is getting at is what Peter was getting at. YHWH is not the name of one being, but one God. One in UNITY. Look what Paul says:

2:6
who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

2:7
but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

This is exactly what John said in his Gospel:

John 1
1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

1:2
He was in the beginning with God.

Whoever said "Jesus was a god" does NOT know Greek grammar. I actually read Koine Greek, and this tactic of butchering the grammar and the definite article does not conform to Greek grammar. The lack of the definite article in the phrase "kai theos en ho logos" makes the noun "theos" serve like an adjective. It describes the nature of "ho logos" (The Word) So there are at least 2 "people" here. This is basically what Paul was saying in Philippians. Now check this out:

Isaiah 45
45:18
For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited), "I am the LORD, and there is none else.

Lets go back to John:

John 1
1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

This is further evidence that Jesus Christ was/is a "piece" of what YHWH is. Before Jesus became a man, He existed as a divine being, but was NOT a separate "god." Jesus (the Word) was an "ingredient" of what God is!

This is why the NT writers went out of their way to designate who specifically they were talking about, God the Father Jesus Christ, or the Holy Spirit.

So to put it in simple terms, yes, it could be said that YHWH is a "family name." God the Father is YHWH, and Jesus is YHWH. But they are not both the same "person" but they do make one YHWH.

Think of it this way. America is made up of 50 states, but that does not mean there are 50 USAs here. Together they make "one nation."

Let us go back to what "YHWH/Jehovah" means. It means "the existing one" One who was and is and will be forever. Did Jesus ever identify Himself in this way? Lets look at the OT first:

Isaiah 41
4 "Who has performed and accomplished it,
Calling forth the generations from the beginning?
'I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last. I am He.'"

Remember now, "the LORD" is really YHWH/Jehovah. Lets jumpt to Revelation, where Jesus is speaking:

Rev 22
12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

Sounds pretty similar, huh? It gets better:

Rev 1:4
John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,

"Him who is and who was and who is to come" is THE DEFINITION of YHWH. This greeting is from God the Father, not Jesus, as the next verse introduces Christ last:

Rev1:5
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood

Now you may ask me "So what?" How does this make Jesus YHWH?" Look what Jesus said right after this:

Rev 1:8
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

So to summarize, the title "Lord" became a tradition to substitute the name YHWH. Peter and Paul both claimed that Jesus was "Lord." In fact, Paul gives the instruction on how to be saved:

Romans 10
10:8
But what does it say ? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart "--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

10:9
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Technically, the Greek does not say confess Jesus AS Lord, it says Jesus IS Lord! There is a small difference. Paul said that Jesus has been given the name above every name. That name is YHWH (Lord), thus solidifying the restoration of The Words fromer glory before He became a man. Now understanding all that, did Jesus ever claim to be YHWH/Jehovah?

John 8
58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

He sure did. Remember, He told Moses This is My name forever. That said, if someone calls on the name "Jesus," they are in effect calling on YHWH, as that is His name. :)
 
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John 8
58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
hn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.'

Hebrews 1:1 In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets,
Hebrews 1:2 in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;"


 
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sbbqb7n16

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leecappella said:
me: If this is true, why does Jesus tell a man, "Why do you call me good. There is none good but God"? Does this make sense if they are one and the same? It might, but explain.
Ever heard of a rhertorical question? :)

Jesus asks because He knows the answer... and knows that He is God. So if they say that He is good, they confess unknowingly that He Himself is God, for "there is none good but God."

But this whole thread came from the faulty premise that one can't have an heir to Himself. Remember Christ's question to the Pharisees?

Matt 22:41 Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question:
Matt 22:42 "What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?" They *said to Him, "The son of David."
Matt 22:43 He *said to them, "Then how does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying,
Matt 22:44 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD,
"SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET"
'?
Matt 22:45 "If David then calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his son?"
Matt 22:46 No one was able to answer Him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask Him another question.


Now is it possible for a sane person to sit down beside himself? Hmmm... here we see it happen. It is an aspect of God that we can't understand really. Or at least I don't at the moment...
 
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21
'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'

John 5:43 I have come in my Father's name, and you do not receive me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.
John 17:6 I did manifest Thy name to the men whom Thou hast given to me out of the world; Thine they were, and to me Thou hast given them, and Thy word they have kept;
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. "
John 3:18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.




 
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sbb; you misquoted ps. 110:1

Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. Lord is adoni in hebrew and means soveriegn either man or god, it is sometimes translated master . men are sometimes called Lord or adonai in heb if they are a king or a ruler. LORD is Yahweh and that is only god. So yahweh is saying to my Adonai or Lord. or Yahweh God said to adonai Lord Jesus. not Yahweh LORD said to Yahweh LORD.
 
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edpobre said:
Friends,

Apostle Paul wrote that God SENT his son to REDEEM those under the law that they may receive adoption as sons (Gal. 4:4-5). Thus, one who has been REDEEMED by the blood of Christ by BECOMING a member of the TRUE church of Christ (Iglesia Ni Cristo in these last days), has been ADOPTED as son of God and IF a SON, an HEIR of God THROUGH Christ (Gal. 4:7).

To those who believe that Christ is God, let me ask you. Why did apostle Paul write in Romans 8:17 that as ADOPTED children of God, members of the TRUE church of Christ are HEIRS and JOINT-HEIRS with Christ?

If Christ is GOD, does he have to an HEIR of himself? Any RATIONAL or SANE person out there would definitely say NO!

Apostle Paul was correct in saying that ADOPTED children of Christ are JOINT-HEIRS with Christ because Christ is BROTHER to them and God is FATHER to Christ and to them (John 20:17).

Romans 8:17 PROVES that Jesus is a MAN like us. Thus, anyone who says that we are CHILDREN of Jesus is a FALSE teacher and will only lead us to certain destruction.

Ed
If Jesus was just a man, then He was also a liar because of His claims to diety. I hope you realize this.
 
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onikirimaru777

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Jesus was God manifested in human form. This was used for (1) the main reason of dying on the cross and creating a bridge between God's plane of reality (heaven) and the material plane (our reality) and (2) humans are narrow minded. God knew that the idea of worshiping and believing the words of an invisible spirit would seem farfetched to most so he manifested as one of us to show the perfection that we had lost, and to help us identify with God.

**note**
number 2 is mainly my opinion but it sounds right, so yeah...
 
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