Romans 7 and 8 without confusing verses

Der Alte · Apr 2, 2020

timewerx said:
When in doubt or confusion, always consult the Gospel verses and teachings of St. John.
Apostle Paul is dealing with a major problem of Jews vs Gentile conversion in Romans. And Paul would adapt his teachings to the culture / situation of his audiences (1 Corinthians 9:19-23). So it's very likely that many teachings of Paul is not applicable to us!
Ironically, the Book of Romans (and other epistles of Paul) is the centerpoint of Christian divisions / breakups / splits / denominations.
This is not a surprise since many Christians took Paul's teachings for doctrine. It has also become a similar case when the other Apostles began teaching to the Gentiles with strong influence of Paul.
Those scriptures are meant to be historical references only concerning the founding of Chistian religion, they are not our core theology.
A lot of Christians are completely dead in spirit because of this. Replacing spirituality with worldliness. Only expecting miracles in money and personal healing, nothing else. It's all selfish, faithless, and denying the power of God.
With many leaving having exactly the wrong expectations because they grabbed into the wrong theology.

So according to you the writings of Paul should be ignored and we should rely only on the writings of John?
Peter was also a disciple, he considered Paul's writings to be scripture.

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Or do you wish to argue that this doesn't mean exactly what it says?

theoneandonlypencil · Apr 2, 2020

JIMINZ said:
It is abundantly clear from every aspect of what you have written, you do not possess the least understanding of what a Believer has been given in Christ.

You clearly do not understand being dead to sin, freed from the flesh alive in Christ and a whole host of other things you have not apparently been taught, I guess because your teachers weren't taught either......hmmmm

"I do believe you have just committed the sin of judging others for their beliefs. Think maybe you should confess and repent?"

I'll just hope you're being sarcastic and that you didn't just immediately screw over your whole argument without realizing it.

Prove to me that you are not guilty of any of the writing below;

theoneandonlypencil said:
Lest we forget that sinning also includes heart matters, not just physical actions. Just ONE impure/sinful/angry thought, ONE moment we do not love God with all of our hearts, and ONE instance of our intentions and motivations being from anything other than absolute purity is enough to count as sin.

Then I'll consider listening to you.

theoneandonlypencil · Apr 2, 2020

Friendly reminder to everyone in the thread to be wary of those who add to the gospel and claim to have some kind of 'knowledge' that you cannot attain yourself by reading scripture.

JIMINZ · Apr 2, 2020

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theoneandonlypencil · Apr 2, 2020

JIMINZ said:
As far as PROVING anything to you, I can't ever do that, mainly because whatever I could say you do not believe in the first place.

This is sounding an awful lot like the arguments I hear when someone is discussing aliens or cryptids. "Well, I can't PROVE to you it exists...and you won't believe anything I say anyway so yeah. But they DO exist"

JIMINZ said:
You do not even believe Scripture that has been shown hundreds of times in any number of Threads and you still come up with the same old arguments, "Prove to me," that question itself proves you don't understand.

Incorrect. The only thing I'm guilty of is looking at the same scripture you do, and not coming out with the same interpretation after deciding to not jump through 17 hoops and rearrange things to get it to mean what I want it to mean.

JIMINZ said:
When you grow more in the Lord and understand just where it is you stand IN Jesus Christ that conversation could take place, but with that knowledge you would already know and understand it.

Ah yes, the 'You just don't understand it like I do' argument. This might as well be classified as its own type of logical fallacy. The truth is, I've presented errors in your theology(which you seemingly decided to ignore in my original post)and you have nothing to counter it other than referencing some 'higher understanding' that only you and a number of other people possess and making assumptions and/or accusations about me in order to discredit my argument.

dms1972 · Apr 2, 2020

I think its fair to say we should read Romans from chapter 1 right through. There is too much emphasis on a few parts of this chapter or that chapter that would make more sense in context, not read in isolation. So it always annoyed me when people would throw Romans 8:1 at me as the answer to what I was talking about, I could never be sure they had even read chapters 1 -7.

JIMINZ · Apr 2, 2020

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CharismaticLady · Apr 2, 2020

theoneandonlypencil said:
So, let me get this straight...OP had to 'edit'/rearrange scripture to prove their theological view? Yikes, that's a big red flag for me.

Lest we forget that sinning also includes heart matters, not just physical actions. Just ONE impure/sinful/angry thought, ONE moment we do not love God with all of our hearts, and ONE instance of our intentions and motivations being from anything other than absolute purity is enough to count as sin. Sin, after all, is not simply a list of 'do's and don't's--sin means 'to miss the mark'. God's standard of perfection is that mark...does that register? We have to be perfectly sinless, not even just like Jesus, but like God himself, to be 100% sin-free. Anyone in this thread who even claims to have achieved anything close to that is already guilty of the sin of being dishonest/deceitful.

Even if we wanted to, this flesh we're stuck in is enough to keep us from achieving that standard. To walk by the spirit does NOT mean we will 'be fully like' the spirit. The only time we can achieve sinless perfection is in heaven with the Father, and out of our sinful bodily flesh.

Imo, even the mere suggestion that there's a 'process' to being saved, as if salvation is a series of boxes needing to be ticked before you can be worthy of salvation, is borderline blasphemous.

Acts 16:31 "They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

This is what salvation is about. The bible places great emphasis MANY times about avoiding sin, how sin 'clings so closely' and to abstain from sin...all things that, logically, should not be possible nor even a threat if we were 'sinless and perfect' as Jesus after we convert. Furthermore, what use is it to confess our sins as Christians if we cannot sin? It's almost as if this school of thought contradicts the bible, hmm..

Do you know how many people do not read Romans 7 in context? What I tried to do is show that we are no longer under the law. But millions of people read Romans 7:14-23 and say that Paul was writing about himself as a Christian. NO! It is about those under the law! And if you show them the conclusion in Romans 8:2 that we are free from the law of sin and death, they still can't believe it. It is called having been brainwashed.

theoneandonlypencil · Apr 2, 2020

JIMINZ said:
Ok lets do it this way then, no jumping through hoops of any kind, and no need for INTERPRETATION either, for the word itself says what it says.

That way all that needs to be done is believe what is written or not.

1Jn 3:1-10
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5) And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7) Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10) In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

You're yet again ignoring all of my other valid points in favor of low-hanging fruit...and doing so by quoting ten verses, with no context or proper exegesis, out of the entire bible.

What I meant, Jiminz, by 'jumping through hoops', is twisting scripture, taking it out of context and ignoring any other scripture that contradicts your point.

As for interpretation--let me show you how easy it is to set up false interpretation based on hearing something isolated/out of context and not 'as a whole';

"And then, Janet said, "What do you think, I murdered him??" "

I could tell you 'Janet said 'I murdered him'!' and it would still be true...she did say that, but I also withheld what she said beforehand, which completely nullifies my 'interpretation' that Janet just murdered a man.

JIMINZ · Apr 2, 2020

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CharismaticLady · Apr 2, 2020

dms1972 said:
I think its fair to say we should read Romans from chapter 1 right through. There is too much emphasis on a few parts of this chapter or that chapter that would make more sense in context, not read in isolation. So it always annoyed me when people would throw Romans 8:1 at me as the answer to what I was talking about, I could never be sure they had even read chapters 1 -7.

AMEN!!!

I teach people to always read a book in one sitting. Paul's sermon on sin and the law was from chapter 1 to 8. 8 being the conclusion.

As for Romans 8:1, whole false doctrines have been made from the modern versions. Only versions that show the condition of walking in the Spirit are valid, make the first part of the sentence true.

NKJV
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

NASB
Romans 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Those who walk in the Spirit do not sin. That is what it means to not be under the law. (No sin/no need for law). Denominations that teach to just have faith in Jesus will come up with quotes like Martin Luther: "Even if you were to commit murder and adultery 1000 times a day, it would not separate you from God." That and other heresies came out of the Reformation, and 500 years later are still parroted.

theoneandonlypencil · Apr 2, 2020

CharismaticLady said:
Do you know how many people do not read Romans 7 in context? What I tried to do is show that we are no longer under the law. But millions of people read Romans 7:14-23 and say that Paul was writing about himself as a Christian. NO! It is about those under the law! And if you show them the conclusion in Romans 8:2 that we are free from the law of sin and death, they still can't believe it. It is called having been brainwashed.

By reading Romans 7 in context, are you speaking about in the context of Romans...or the entire bible as a whole?

If you can't see the warnings and examples of Christians and sin(an oxymoron, by your doctrine as Christians should not be able to sin) throughout the entire bible and think that God simply let his people needlessly suffer for [x] amount of years before 'cleansing' them with Jesus Christ, I dare say you might not be qualified to decide who is and is not brainwashed.

Nevermind that it calls into question the salvation of every Christian prior to Jesus' sacrifice.

JIMINZ · Apr 2, 2020

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theoneandonlypencil · Apr 2, 2020

JIMINZ said:
Im sorry, I gave you 10 easy verses that tell the Born Again Believer what his position is with regard to sin, and what the persons position is who commits sin, it's all in context, nothing has been added or retracted, you just do not believe that God could have someone write something so comprehensive that it would not take a law degree to figure it out.

I didn't think or believe you would accept the verses as written, and you have not disappointed, you can't put off your lack of believing what Scripture so clearly states on to me, your the one who does not believe what it says.

I have not attempted to Interpret it mainly because it does not need to be Interpreted, it's a series of statements of Fact, you chose to not believe them, fine with me.

How about the Fact Scripture clearly and plainly says.

1) You are dead to the Law.

Rom. 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Gal. 2:19
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God

2) You are Dead to Sin.

Rom. 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom. 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

3) You are Dead to the flesh.

Rom. 7:5
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Rom. 8:12,13
12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Lastly Jesus came to destroy sin in the flesh.

Rom 8:3
3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

That should be enough for now.

No need for Interpretation they say what they say.

Methinks you do not understand what I mean by 'context', and further quoting of cherry-picked verses also prove this.

Interpretation is needed to resolve contradictions; of course, I'd expect you to know nothing of that given you still, to this reply, refuse to refute any of my other points.

JIMINZ · Apr 2, 2020

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JIMINZ · Apr 2, 2020

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CharismaticLady · Apr 2, 2020

theoneandonlypencil said:
By reading Romans 7 in context, are you speaking about in the context of Romans...or the entire bible as a whole?

If you can't see the warnings and examples of Christians and sin(an oxymoron, by your doctrine as Christians should not be able to sin) throughout the entire bible and think that God simply let his people needlessly suffer for [x] amount of years before 'cleansing' them with Jesus Christ, I dare say you might not be qualified to decide who is and is not brainwashed.

Nevermind that it calls into question the salvation of every Christian prior to Jesus' sacrifice.

We are either lawless sinners or children of God. We are not both. Please study 1 John 3. Study that chapter and be free. Also read John 8:34-36. In fact, read that first to see that Jesus frees us from sin indeed! Happy studying.

If you believe the Word that you can be free, you can be. Just repent of your sinful nature that keeps you bound. Pray Psalms 51. That's what I did and I was filled to overflowing with the Holy Spirit. What a life changing experience. (Feb. 9, 1977). If you keep telling yourself the lie that you can never be free, you never will be. It is that simple.

theoneandonlypencil · Apr 2, 2020

JIMINZ said:
You really don't listen to what you say do you?,,,,,Talk about oxymoron, you can't have one without the other.

OT Saints were saved by God's grace, ultimately, prior to Jesus ever being born.

JIMINZ said:
That's your argument and you going to stick to it, no need for us to pursue anything any further, you just don't believe what Scripture so clearly says, you can rail against it and me all you want, you will still be wrong.

Hey man, it's not my fault your only arguing tactic failed you. I just happen to prefer NOT debating like a middle-schooler.

theoneandonlypencil · Apr 2, 2020

CharismaticLady said:
We are either lawless sinners or children of God. We are not both. Please study 1 John 3. Study that chapter and be free. Also read John 8:34-36. In fact, read that first to see that Jesus frees us from sin indeed! Happy studying.

Yes, he sets us free of being slaves to sin and letting us be able to realize that we're sinful beings and in need of confessing our sins to be forgiven...as they happen. He is there to be an advocate for us when judgment comes.

Repentance is a disposition towards not sinning, not an immunity.

CharismaticLady · Apr 2, 2020

theoneandonlypencil said:
OT Saints were saved by God's grace, ultimately, prior to Jesus ever being born.

Yes, God overlooked their sins according to Paul.

Romans 3:25
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,

Romans 7 and 8 without confusing verses

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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