Romans 4:7 is problematic for me, help - lol

Secundulus · Feb 6, 2009

ShannonMcCatholic said:
In the Vulgate the word used is tecta--which means under the roof....

sound like any Mass parts we know (or I guess will know when the translation finally gets fixed?)

Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldst come under my roof: But speak the word only and my soul shall be healed.

Radagast · Feb 6, 2009

ShannonMcCatholic said:
It's interesting there the GReek uses the passive aorist....

I'm impressed at anyone that can recognise the passive aorist.

Rhamiel · Feb 6, 2009

Radagast said:
I'm impressed at anyone that can recognise the passive aorist.

Shannon is hardcore, did you not know that? LOL

Lady Bug · Feb 6, 2009

thereselittleflower said:
LB, perhaps it would be helpful to think of "covered" as in "covering someone's tab" . . "covering someone's debt" which means to pay it for them . . . .not cover up something.

yes that makes sense too

darned English translations sometimesI think the RSV-CE should have used a different word - because I like that Bible translation a lot - not ready for Douay-Rheims lol

ShannonMcCatholic · Feb 6, 2009

Radagast said:
I'm impressed at anyone that can recognise the passive aorist.

Rhamiel said:
Shannon is hardcore, did you not know that? LOL

I'm totally nerd poster girl. (Not geek poster girl--straight out, kickin' it old school, nerd)

JoabAnias · Feb 6, 2009

Lady Bug said:
yes that makes sense too

darned English translations sometimesI think the RSV-CE should have used a different word - because I like that Bible translation a lot - not ready for Douay-Rheims lol

I checked a couple translations and they all used "covered".

JoabAnias · Feb 6, 2009

ShannonMcCatholic said:
I'm totally nerd poster girl. (Not geek poster girl--straight out, kickin' it old school, nerd)

Got any spare pocket protectors. Mine is full of ink.

ShannonMcCatholic · Feb 6, 2009

JoabAnias said:
Got any spare pocket protectors. Mine is full of ink.

As a matter of fact...I do....

thereselittleflower · Feb 6, 2009

Radagast said:
I think this misunderstands Luther's point (I probably explained it badly), which is that no matter how terrible our sins, God will cover them over.

That is exactly where he was wrong. . .God does not "cover our sins over" so that our sins remain but He just hides them from His sight.

That view is condemned by the Church as heretical. It is important that non Catholic teaching is not promoted here in OBOB..

God doesn't "cover our sins over" . . .the Church has never taught this . . . this was an innovation of Luther which was taken to its extreme end by Calvin.

And of course thereselittleflower is right, we become changed at baptism, and become new creatures, but much of the old remains (as JoabAnias said), and we are all still "miserable sinners."

Only because the temporal consequences of our sins remain, and we must deal with them, our old nature that doesn't want to die that has been distorted because of the fallen nature we are born with and its tendency to sin.

All our sins, however, at baptism, ARE WASHED AWAY . . not covered up!

Through the sacrament of confession our sins are REMOVED far from us . . as far as the east is from the west . . . not covered up!

To quote the Fioretti:

Then St. Francis, with many tears and sighs and beatings of the breast, said with a loud voice: "O my Lord of heaven and earth, I have committed so many wickednesses and so many sins against Thee that I am altogether worthy to be accursed from Thee"

And that has absolutely nothing to do with your claim . . which you should not be debating here at all.

And you or I are hardly St Francis! But all those shortcomings are pardoned too -- For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! (Rom 5:10).

Nothing about covering up there . . . .

And also, we are slowly being transformed through the working of the Holy Spirit and through the means of grace that God has provided to the Church, including the sacraments, and prayer:

Be filled with the Spirit. Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. (Ephesians 5:18b-20)

Nothing about covering up there . . .

In the case of some sins (our own particular "besetting sins") the transformation does sometimes seem to be disturbingly slow, but it does happen!

Then some day from heaven,
On clouds of bright glory,
Jesus the Son of God
Will come for His jewels,
Most precious and holy,
Jesus the Son of God.

O sweet Wonder!
O sweet Wonder!
Jesus the Son of God;
How I adore Thee!
O how I love Thee!
Jesus the Son of God. -- Garfield T. Haywood, 1914

Yes, we are transformed, slowly through our sanctification, through theosis . . . .

But this has nothing to do with the claim that God merely "covers up" our sins .. . .

thereselittleflower · Feb 6, 2009

ShannonMcCatholic said:
Say hun? NT is GReek, not Hebrew...where are you pulling from?

The NT passage quotes the OT.

JoabAnias · Feb 6, 2009

ShannonMcCatholic said:
As a matter of fact...I do....

Lady Bug · Feb 6, 2009

So what other passages are used to try to justify that our sins are covered up as opposed to washed away? I'm not trying to promote non-Catholic teaching, I just would like to see passages that some people could attempt to use as ammo for this opinion and how they can be addressed from the Catholic point of view.

Radagast · Feb 6, 2009

Rhamiel said:
Shannon is hardcore, did you not know that? LOL

Oh, yes, I did. She's awesome.

thereselittleflower said:
...God does not "cover our sins over" so that our sins remain but He just hides them from His sight.

God forgives our sins. "Cover" is one of the words St Paul uses to express this. "Washing away" and "removed" are used elsewhere in Scripture to describe it.

But in the interest of peace, I better bow out of this thread.

CreedIsChrist · Feb 7, 2009

Lady Bug said:
So I was reading the first half of Romans 4 today and I came across a passage that really threw me off.

I have learned that in Catholic theology, our sins are not covered, but removed each time that they are forgiven. Blotted out.

But why does this passage say THIS: (Romans 4:7)

"Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered"

This makes no sense to me at all. I know there is one other passage in the Bible that explains that our love covers a multitude of sins, but if I'm not mistaken, that is when we are in the situation of forgiving those who trespass against us.

Now I feel so unsure now...

Why does it say in Romans 4:7 that our sins are covered when Catholic teaching says it is NOT covered but BLOTTED out?

I think the question you are asking is whether the sins are covered pre,present, and post tense. Or if its just pre-tense. The grammer uses a pre-tense of the word(our past sins covered and blotted).

And it becomes even more clear when the bible starts talking about the sin of presumption(thinking your covered fully and thus giving you license to sin)

In all reality Jesus does have the power to forgive ALL sins, including the ones we have done in the future that we haven't done yet, as long as we stay with him and are repentant. So in a sense we are covered fully if we truly stay with our Lord.

Protestants take it in a monergism view(one time thing, once and for all, no type of human effort or coroporation), while Catholics view it as Synergism(a co-operating with God's grace).

thereselittleflower · Feb 7, 2009

Radagast said:
Oh, yes, I did. She's awesome.

God forgives our sins. "Cover" is one of the words St Paul uses to express this. "Washing away" and "removed" are used elsewhere in Scripture to describe it.

But in the interest of peace, I better bow out of this thread.

I agree with what you said above. . . unfortunately, Luther does not.

Lady Bug · Feb 7, 2009

thereselittleflower said:
I agree with what you said above. . . unfortunately, Luther does not.

I try not to say too much about what Luther believed or didn't believe unless I investigated it further, but are you saying that Luther did not believe in sins being washed away or blotted out, but simply covered up?

Ok - not the greatest example (but not the worst either I guess) but you've heard of air fresheners that neutralize or eliminate odors - while some seem to just cover them up and not remove them - well that's what I'm thinking now lol.

WarriorAngel · Feb 7, 2009

Well - LB - didn't read my posts?

LittleLambofJesus · Feb 7, 2009

Radagast said:
Well, I think that, firstly, you have to take those two verses as a package. And second, you seem to be reading an awful lot into what you think "covered" (επικαλύπτ&#969 means. According to my dictionary, in this context it means "pardoned".

(edit: I had a quote from the dictionary here, but it got lost)

This form of #1943 used only in this one verse and does appear to imply a "cover over/on"....

http://www.scripture4all.org/
uses W-H Ms

Romans 4:7 Happy-ones whom were pardoned/afeqhsan <863> (5681) the lawlessnesses and of whom were covered over/ep-ekalufqhsan <1943> (5681) the sins.

Textus Rec.) Romans 4:7 makarioi wn afeqhsan ai anomiai kai wn ep-ekalufqhsan ai amartiai

1943. epikalupto ep-ee-kal-oop'-to from 1909 and 2572; to conceal, i.e. (figuratively) forgive:--cover.
1909. epi ep-ee' a primary preposition; properly, meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of distribution (with the genitive case),
2572. kalupto kal-oop'-to akin to 2813 and 2928; to cover up (literally or figuratively):--cover, hide.

863. aphiemi af-ee'-ay-mee from 575 and hiemi (to send; an intensive form of eimi, to go); to send forth, in various applications (as follow):--cry, forgive, forsake, lay aside, leave, let (alone, be, go, have), omit, put (send) away, remit, suffer, yield up.

Lady Bug · Feb 7, 2009

WarriorAngel said:
Well - LB - didn't read my posts?

WA

I saw others' posts but I um - wellI had to look back and find your posts

but yes I did read your posts

JoabAnias · Feb 7, 2009

LittleLambofJesus said:
This form of #1943 used only in this one verse and does appear to imply a "cover over/on"....

http://www.scripture4all.org/
uses W-H Ms

Romans 4:7 Happy-ones whom were pardoned/afeqhsan <863> (5681) the lawlessnesses and of whom were covered over/ep-ekalufqhsan <1943> (5681) the sins.

Textus Rec.) Romans 4:7 makarioi wn afeqhsan ai anomiai kai wn ep-ekalufqhsan ai amartiai

1943. epikalupto ep-ee-kal-oop'-to from 1909 and 2572; to conceal, i.e. (figuratively) forgive:--cover.
1909. epi ep-ee' a primary preposition; properly, meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of distribution (with the genitive case),
2572. kalupto kal-oop'-to akin to 2813 and 2928; to cover up (literally or figuratively):--cover, hide.

863. aphiemi af-ee'-ay-mee from 575 and hiemi (to send; an intensive form of eimi, to go); to send forth, in various applications (as follow):--cry, forgive, forsake, lay aside, leave, let (alone, be, go, have), omit, put (send) away, remit, suffer, yield up.

Thats the problem right there.

Romans 4:7 is problematic for me, help - lol

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