Romans 4:7 is problematic for me, help - lol

[Radagast]

Martin Luther described christians as piles of dung covered in white snow, or something like that, the idea that the forgivness of sins is only on a legal leval, God declares us innocent even though we are the same as we were before, very Protestant idea

Very Christian idea. God forgives our sins even though we remain what Luther calls us (and St Francis would happily have called himself that, if we are to believe the Fioretti).

We may not be "the same as we were before," but we do continue to sin, albeit (hopefully, by God's grace) less and less as our hearts are transformed. Paul has a clear flow of ideas in Romans: forgiveness in Chapter 4, the resulting peace with God in Chapter 5, and living a new life through Jesus in Chapter 6.

“Blessed are they whose unrighteousness is forgiven, and whose sins are covered”: and whose sins are buried in oblivion. “Blessed is the man to whom the Lord hath not imputed sin, nor is there guile in his mouth”: nor has he in his mouth boastings of righteousness, when his conscience is full of sins. -- St Augustine, Exposition on the Psalms

 

[JoabAnias]

For the most part, it does make sense. The one thing that slightly doesn't jive with me (in spite of the fact that I know it is supposed to be true) is that by virtue of the transformation of our hearts, we feel less inclined to want to sin. In some cases, I do feel less inclined to want to sin, whereas in some other cases, the temptations couldn't be stronger. How does one account for that?

• CONCUPISCENCE

• CONCUPISCENCE OF THE EYES

• CONCUPISCENCE OF THE FLESH

Read on the rest of Rom 7.

Paul tells us about the war between the spirit and the flesh.

Rom 7:15 For what I work out, I do not know. For what I do not will, this I do. But what I hate, this I do.
Rom 7:23 but I see another law in my members having warred against the law of my mind, and taking me captive by the law of sin being in my members.

We have both light and darkness dwelling within us.

Then read on through Rom 8 for more of an answer:

Rom 8:5 For the ones that are according to flesh mind the things of the flesh. And the ones according to Spirit mind the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

We have to learn to follow and choose the light within or as St. Paul tells us, to walk in the Spirit.

We do this by knowing ourselves and our weaknesses. There are many helps offered us through the Church in her sacraments.

The profession of faith one makes at baptism is one such occasion.

Once one knows themselves then can they avoid those things that they have trouble with and over time and by walking in the Spirit, those things will be transformed in Christ and become easier and less of or no temptation at all and we may understand what it means to be free in Christ.

St. Paul was knocked of his horse and converted in an instant. We too may experience similar occurrences with parts of our conversions, God willing, but usually it is a process of conversion over time and by remaining faithful to Jesus and what He asks of us.

Think of an addiction. If I subjection myself to the near occasion of a sin that I know has been hard for me to resist then I am likely to fall and indulge in that sin despite what my spirit tells me because my flesh is at war with my spirit and compelling me which may overcome my will to not do the evil if my will is not strong enough to resist the temptation.

If we love God sincerely with our hearts and walk in the Spirit then we will no longer think of not doing His will.

 

[thereselittleflower]

well that's the problem -

in Catholic theology, "forgiven" and "not counted against him" is not the same as covered, they mean totally blotted out - which is not the same as covered

Don't get stuck on the English translation . . . . we do not make doctrines out of one scripture .. .

Protestants might, but the Catholic Church doesn't.

The Catholic Church teaches what was taught by the Apostles, and scripture interpetation must line up with that teaching.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Very Christian idea. God forgives our sins even though we remain what Luther calls us (and St Francis would happily have called himself that, if we are to believe the Fioretti).

No, it's not a very christian idea. . it was one of Luther's great errors.

Luther's idea is not at all what the Catholic Church teaches or what the apostles taught. We are not piles of dung covered over.

Original sin is removed from us at baptism. We are NOT the same as we were before, we are a new creature. Luther didn't understand this.

The reason we still sin and war with sin is because we are still left with the repercussions of sin in our lives, we are left with its effects, which attract us to sin, which are defects that need to be overcome.

The eternal consequences are forgiven, but the temporal consequences still need to be dealt with and overcome.

That is something very, very different than what Luther taught and beleived. It is very sad actually, to see yourself as totally unchanged, with all that evil just covered up . . . .

 

[thereselittleflower]

LB, perhaps it would be helpful to think of "covered" as in "covering someone's tab" . . "covering someone's debt" which means to pay it for them . . . .not cover up something.

 

[Rhamiel]

yeah, I just pointed out what Luther preached so that some people could get an idea of what the problem was, I was not advocating that idea at all
Thereselittleflower, you are doing a great job at explaining things, mega reps for you

 

[JoabAnias]

LB, perhaps it would be helpful to think of "covered" as in "covering someone's tab" . . "covering someone's debt" which means to pay it for them . . . .not cover up something.

Makes sense to me.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Makes sense to me.

You know, I never really worried about it, for I simply accept the Church's teaching . . . .but looking at it a little bit ago, this just jumped out at me, and it was a "of course" moment.

 

[JoabAnias]

You know, I never really worried about it, for I simply accept the Church's teaching . . . .but looking at it a little bit ago, this just jumped out at me, and it was a "of course" moment.

I never had a problem with it before either. I can understand where LB does though. I also appreciate your analogy, I think its right on.

I also like to see any practical helps in avoiding sin too. So often folks just feel helpless against it. It wouldn't surprise me if part of the motivation behind such false doctrines as OSAS is a very helpless feeling to not be able to stop sinning.

 

[Secundulus]

well that's the problem -

in Catholic theology, "forgiven" and "not counted against him" is not the same as covered, they mean totally blotted out - which is not the same as covered

To be covered means that they are no longer seen by God. If he no longer sees them then they are not counted against the person.

This is just a poetic way of describing forgiveness.

 

[Radagast]

That is something very, very different than what Luther taught and beleived. It is very sad actually, to see yourself as totally unchanged, with all that evil just covered up . . . .

I think this misunderstands Luther's point (I probably explained it badly), which is that no matter how terrible our sins, God will cover them over.

And of course thereselittleflower is right, we become changed at baptism, and become new creatures, but much of the old remains (as JoabAnias said), and we are all still "miserable sinners." To quote the Fioretti:

Then St. Francis, with many tears and sighs and beatings of the breast, said with a loud voice: "O my Lord of heaven and earth, I have committed so many wickednesses and so many sins against Thee that I am altogether worthy to be accursed from Thee"

And you or I are hardly St Francis! But all those shortcomings are pardoned too -- For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! (Rom 5:10).

And also, we are slowly being transformed through the working of the Holy Spirit and through the means of grace that God has provided to the Church, including the sacraments, and prayer:

Be filled with the Spirit. Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. (Ephesians 5:18b-20)

In the case of some sins (our own particular "besetting sins") the transformation does sometimes seem to be disturbingly slow, but it does happen!

Then some day from heaven,
On clouds of bright glory,
Jesus the Son of God
Will come for His jewels,
Most precious and holy,
Jesus the Son of God.

O sweet Wonder!
O sweet Wonder!
Jesus the Son of God;
How I adore Thee!
O how I love Thee!
Jesus the Son of God. -- Garfield T. Haywood, 1914

 

[Secundulus]

To be covered means that they are no longer seen by God. If he no longer sees them then they are not counted against the person.

This is just a poetic way of describing forgiveness.

Paul was here quoting Psalm 31.

Psalm 32:1 (NASB95)
1 How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered!

From a strictly academic viewpoint we know that the Psalms were Hebrew Poetry. We also know that the structure of this poetry was to state things twice, a couplet, in which the same idea was told twice in different words.

So, we can conclude that the the two phrases, "transgression is forgiven" and "sin is covered" have identical meanings.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Once you confess and do penance - with a contrite heart - it is forgiven and seen no more.

BUT this is only done thru letting the graces God gives us to transform us to a new person.

IE as an example of what NOT to do or to think -
'HEY - my sins are covered - so it's cool to do what ya want. Like hey - my sins are covered aND NOW I AM GOING TO GO OUT AND STEAL.' [caps lock ]

I know a woman somewhere else who preaches Christ and her sins being covered while she has the lewdest sig pics online you can or best not imagine.
We talked about how she cannot preach the Lord while not doing her best to avoid the sins of causing men to lust.
She says Christ died - so she is covered. And on she goes.

That's just one example of the errors of OSAS ...and i pray for her. It truly is vulgar and tasteless.

Catholics say - I asked for forgiveness - and i mean it and i am going to transform because God's graces are working in me. He causes me to want to change and I shall cooperate. And thru that cooperation and change of heart - the sins are covered.

Does this help?

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

Interesting that the word was only translated once as "covered"

1104 בָּלַע, בָּלַע, בָּלַע

1104 בָּלַע, בָּלַע, בָּלַע [bala` /beh·lah/] v. A primitive root; TWOT 251; GK 1180 and 1181 and 1182; 49 occurrences; AV translates as “swallow …” 34 times, “destroy” nine times, “devour” three times, “covered” once, and “at … end” once. 1 to swallow down, swallow up, engulf, eat up. 1a (Qal). 1a1 to swallow down. 1a2 to swallow up, engulf. 1b (Niphal) to be swallowed up. 1c (Piel). 1c1 to swallow. 1c2 to swallow up, engulf. 1c3 squandering (fig.). 1d (Pual) to be swallowed up. 1e (Hithpael) to be ended.​

Say hun? NT is GReek, not Hebrew...where are you pulling from?

 

[Radagast]

IE as an example of what NOT to do or to think -
'HEY - my sins are covered - so it's cool to do what ya want. Like hey - my sins are covered aND NOW I AM GOING TO GO OUT AND STEAL.' [caps lock ]

As St Paul says, What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? (Romans 6:1-2)

 

[PETE_]

Hey WA, does she feel that the pics are sinful?

If she does not, then that may be the reason for her statement. The HS does not bring us all along at the same pace and we are not instantly mature Christians at our conversion. Our convictions on what is/isnt she changes as we mature in Christ

 

[Radagast]

Say hun? NT is GReek, not Hebrew...where are you pulling from?

... he corrected that.

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

oops, just looked at covered and did not realize it took me to OT..too early I guess

79.114 καλύπτωa: to cause something to be covered over and hence not visible—‘to cover, to cover over.’ οὐδεὶς δὲ λύχνον ἅψας καλύπτει αὐτὸν σκεύει ‘no one takes a lamp and covers it with a bowl’ Lk 8.16; τότε ἄρξονται λέγειν … τοῖς βουνοῖς, Καλύψατε ἡμᾶς ‘then they will begin to say … to the hills, Cover us’ Lk 23.30.​

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=50479365#_ftn1http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=50479365#_ftnref1

In the Vulgate the word used is tecta--which means under the roof....

sound like any Mass parts we know (or I guess will know when the translation finally gets fixed?)

 

[PETE_]

Say hun? NT is GReek, not Hebrew...where are you pulling from?

post 7, 9 been there yesterday

I guess since he was quoting Psalms when I did the word study it pulled up the Heb. I do think it is interesting to see the verses compared in their original languages and the detailed meanings of the words

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

... he corrected that.

LOL! yeah--helps to read the whole thread....

It's interesting there the GReek uses the passive aorist....