Romans 4:7 is problematic for me, help - lol

[Lady Bug]

So I was reading the first half of Romans 4 today and I came across a passage that really threw me off.

I have learned that in Catholic theology, our sins are not covered, but removed each time that they are forgiven. Blotted out.

But why does this passage say THIS: (Romans 4:7)

"Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered"

This makes no sense to me at all. I know there is one other passage in the Bible that explains that our love covers a multitude of sins, but if I'm not mistaken, that is when we are in the situation of forgiving those who trespass against us.

Now I feel so unsure now...

Why does it say in Romans 4:7 that our sins are covered when Catholic teaching says it is NOT covered but BLOTTED out?

 

[louella]

hey

lol... its funny how the bible can throw us off sometimes..

Personally, I have the feeling that the term 'covered' is just being used in different context. When the Catholic church is saying that sins are not covered but removed.. they are just trying to emphasize to us that in terms of repentance Jesus doesn't hold it against us anymore.

And in Romans 4:7 I think the term 'covered' is used to say to us that those of us who are righteous by faith and not by works are blessed because Jesus is the one who bears our sins, kind like, Jesus has covered the punishment for sin by dying on the cross.

anyway thats just my thoughts so don't take my word for it... :/ maybe ask your priest???

 

[Rhamiel]

well when the Bible was written, there were no Baptist theologians throwing around Calvinist terms, so this did not seem like a big deal, covered just means "taken care of" like "i am going to cover the check for you because you paid for dinner last time.

This is why the Catholic Church does not just take 1 verse from the Bible and make a whole theology based on it, words can mean differant things to differant people, for 1400 years everybody who read that knew what it ment, then some stuff went down, now people are confused. Look at the other verses in the Bible, look at all the verses on "forgivness"
Colossians 3:13
Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
forgive as the Lord forgave you, now are we commanded to just cover up peoples sins agianst us? no, but to really forgive, sounds like God does the same

 

[AllForJesus]

Maybe it means that in Christ we are frogiven and our sin is remove so He covers it for us.

 

[PETE_]

Interesting that the word was only translated once as "covered"

1104 בָּלַע, בָּלַע, בָּלַע

1104 בָּלַע, בָּלַע, בָּלַע [bala` /beh·lah/] v. A primitive root; TWOT 251; GK 1180 and 1181 and 1182; 49 occurrences; AV translates as “swallow …” 34 times, “destroy” nine times, “devour” three times, “covered” once, and “at … end” once. 1 to swallow down, swallow up, engulf, eat up. 1a (Qal). 1a1 to swallow down. 1a2 to swallow up, engulf. 1b (Niphal) to be swallowed up. 1c (Piel). 1c1 to swallow. 1c2 to swallow up, engulf. 1c3 squandering (fig.). 1d (Pual) to be swallowed up. 1e (Hithpael) to be ended.​

 

[Rhamiel]

thanks PETE,
but I thought the NT was written in Greek? why are you posting hebrew? or was it just the Gospels that were written in greek?

 

[PETE_]

oops, just looked at covered and did not realize it took me to OT..too early I guess

79.114 καλύπτωa: to cause something to be covered over and hence not visible—‘to cover, to cover over.’ οὐδεὶς δὲ λύχνον ἅψας καλύπτει αὐτὸν σκεύει ‘no one takes a lamp and covers it with a bowl’ Lk 8.16; τότε ἄρξονται λέγειν … τοῖς βουνοῖς, Καλύψατε ἡμᾶς ‘then they will begin to say … to the hills, Cover us’ Lk 23.30.​

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=50479365#_ftn1http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=50479365#_ftnref1

 

[Rhamiel]

oops, just looked at covered and did not realize it took me to OT..too early I guess

79.114 καλύπτωa: to cause something to be covered over and hence not visible—‘to cover, to cover over.’ οὐδεὶς δὲ λύχνον ἅψας καλύπτει αὐτὸν σκεύει ‘no one takes a lamp and covers it with a bowl’ Lk 8.16; τότε ἄρξονται λέγειν … τοῖς βουνοῖς, Καλύψατε ἡμᾶς ‘then they will begin to say … to the hills, Cover us’ Lk 23.30.​

oh
well in that case, this goes back to why we do not base a whole theology on just one verse

 

[PETE_]

Although Paul s quoting David who used the Hebrew word posted before

Quoting Hebrew in Greek....wonder how that works???

 

[thereselittleflower]

So I was reading the first half of Romans 4 today and I came across a passage that really threw me off.

I have learned that in Catholic theology, our sins are not covered, but removed each time we confess them. Blotted out.

But why does this passage say THIS: (Romans 4:7)

"Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered"

This makes no sense to me at all. I know there is one other passage in the Bible that explains that our love covers a multitude of sins, but if I'm not mistaken, that is when we are in the situation of forgiving those who trespass against us.

Now I feel so unsure now...

Why does it say in Romans 4:7 that our sins are covered when Catholic teaching says it is NOT covered but BLOTTED out?

Remember, the Church is the infallible interpreter of scripture.

This is a poetic way of saying our sins are pardoned. .. . it is a figure of speach.

We must not give into the temptation to make doctrine on one verse.

 

[Radagast]

Although Paul s quoting David who used the Hebrew word posted before

Quoting Hebrew in Greek....wonder how that works???

Paul is of course quoting the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament.

And I think Romans 4:7 means the same as 4:8:

Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him.

"Forgiven," "covered," and "will never be counted against him" are all the same.

 

[Lady Bug]

well that's the problem -

in Catholic theology, "forgiven" and "not counted against him" is not the same as covered, they mean totally blotted out - which is not the same as covered

 

[Radagast]

well that's the problem -

in Catholic theology, "forgiven" and "not counted against him" is not the same as covered, they mean totally blotted out - which is not the same as covered

Well, I think that, firstly, you have to take those two verses as a package. And second, you seem to be reading an awful lot into what you think "covered" (επικαλύπτ&#969 means. According to my dictionary, in this context it means "pardoned".

(edit: I had a quote from the dictionary here, but it got lost)

 

[JoabAnias]

well that's the problem -

in Catholic theology, "forgiven" and "not counted against him" is not the same as covered, they mean totally blotted out - which is not the same as covered

Please refer me to this Catholic teaching you mention. Maybe the problem lays in the interpretation of that teaching.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I got it covered...
[Being punny]

7 "Whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered"... That is, blessed are those who, by doing penance, have obtained pardon and remission of their sins, and also are covered; that is, newly clothed with the habit of grace, and vested with the stole of charity.

8 "The Lord hath not imputed sin"... That is, blessed is the man who hath retained his baptismal innocence, that no grievous sin can be imputed to him. And, likewise, blessed is the man, who after fall into sin, hath done penance and leads a virtuous life, by frequenting the sacraments necessary for obtaining the grace to prevent a relapse, that sin is no more imputed to him.

9 "In the circumcision"... That is, is it only for the Jews that are circumcised? No, says the apostle, but also for the uncircumcised Gentiles: who, by faith and grace, may come to justice; as Abraham did before he was circumcised.

 

[Radagast]

He brings Scriptural testimony to prove, saying, As David saith, “Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.” What, he means, is it that you say? Is it that “it is not of debt but of grace that he receives forgiveness?” But see it is this person who is pronounced blessed. For he would not have pronounced him so, unless he saw him in the enjoyment of great glory.

-- St. John Chrysostom, Homily 8 on Paul's Epistle to the Romans

Past sins are covered by grace, as the Apostle declares (Romans 4:7) where he quotes Psalm 31:1: "Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered."

-- St Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica

 

[Lady Bug]

Please refer me to this Catholic teaching you mention. Maybe the problem lays in the interpretation of that teaching.

ok -

in Karl Keating's book - he described "covered" sins when he likens them to a very physically unclean person who puts clean clothes on him to cover up his dirty body - KK describes the concept of covered sins as having a very dirty filthy soul covered up by a newly transformed outer "image" when we become children of God.

then he describes blotted out sins in the sense that our inner selves undergo a complete renewal and we are not filthy underneath and clean on the outside, but become clean on the inside too.

please correct me if I'm wrong

 

[JoabAnias]

ok -

in Karl Keating's book - he described "covered" sins when he likens them to a very physically unclean person who puts clean clothes on him to cover up his dirty body - KK describes the concept of covered sins as having a very dirty filthy soul covered up by a newly transformed outer "image" when we become children of God.

then he describes blotted out sins in the sense that our inner selves undergo a complete renewal and we are not filthy underneath and clean on the outside, but become clean on the inside too.

please correct me if I'm wrong

Ah, I think I know what your getting at now.

In the context of the Scripture and Catholic teaching "covered" means something more.

What I think Keeting is talking about is in relation to deficient Protestant doctrine and is insincere.

It is insincere because the "covering" in that instance is a "facade" and not of the heart.

Whereby the covering in Scripture refers to not only the actual covering of our Sins by Jesus through His sacrifice, but in context, also the transformation of our hearts in conversion to not want to sin because of our love of Him.

Its about our disposition toward sin and toward God that makes the difference.

We can hide our sins but still be in love with them. That is insincere and unreal and we may remain culpable of those sins because the Lord knows our true heart.

What we seek sincerely is an honest change of heart.

Does that make any sense?

 

[Rhamiel]

Martin Luther described christians as piles of dung covered in white snow, or something like that, the idea that the forgivness of sins is only on a legal leval, God declares us innocent even though we are the same as we were before, very Protestant idea

 

[Lady Bug]

Whereby the covering in Scripture refers to not only the actual covering of our Sins by Jesus through His sacrifice, but in context, also the transformation of our hearts in conversion to not want to sin because of our love of Him.

Its about our disposition toward sin and toward God that makes the difference.

We can hide our sins but still be in love with them. That is insincere and unreal and we may remain culpable of those sins because the Lord knows our true heart.

What we seek sincerely is an honest change of heart.

Does that make any sense?

For the most part, it does make sense. The one thing that slightly doesn't jive with me (in spite of the fact that I know it is supposed to be true) is that by virtue of the transformation of our hearts, we feel less inclined to want to sin. In some cases, I do feel less inclined to want to sin, whereas in some other cases, the temptations couldn't be stronger. How does one account for that?

Martin Luther described christians as piles of dung covered in white snow, or something like that, the idea that the forgivness of sins is only on a legal leval, God declares us innocent even though we are the same as we were before, very Protestant idea

Rhamiel that is what I was trying to convey, thanks.