Romans 4:15

[jsimms615]

The context of this verse is that Paul is saying that Abraham was justified based on his faith in God and not in the law. In verse 14 he basically says that if it is possible to be justified by the law then faith is made void.
Then in verse 15 he goes on to say, "for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, neither is there violation" (NASV) The KJV uses the word "Transgression" instead of violation.

What I am wondering about is where is Paul thinking of when he mentions "where there is no law"? Is he thinking of tribal groups and people who haven't heard the gospel or the Law of Moses? Is he saying those people are then innocent?
I get the first part of his idea, that the law condemns. Because it reflects God's perfect nature and standards and we are sinful human beings then it should bring to light our sins. It is that second part of verse 15 that I am struggling with.

 

[DreamerOfDreams]

The context of this verse is that Paul is saying that Abraham was justified based on his faith in God and not in the law. In verse 14 he basically says that if it is possible to be justified by the law then faith is made void.
Then in verse 15 he goes on to say, "for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, neither is there violation" (NASV) The KJV uses the word "Transgression" instead of violation.

What I am wondering about is where is Paul thinking of when he mentions "where there is no law"? Is he thinking of tribal groups and people who haven't heard the gospel or the Law of Moses? Is he saying those people are then innocent?
I get the first part of his idea, that the law condemns. Because it reflects God's perfect nature and standards and we are sinful human beings then it should bring to light our sins. It is that second part of verse 15 that I am struggling with.

He is simply saying that if there are no laws then you cannot break them.

 

[jsimms615]

He is simply saying that if there are no laws then you cannot break them.

When and where are there no laws though? Again, my original question was is Paul referring to tribal people or people who have not heard about the gospel or the law?

 

[Jerrysch]

The context of this verse is that Paul is saying that Abraham was justified based on his faith in God and not in the law. In verse 14 he basically says that if it is possible to be justified by the law then faith is made void.
Then in verse 15 he goes on to say, "for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, neither is there violation" (NASV) The KJV uses the word "Transgression" instead of violation.

What I am wondering about is where is Paul thinking of when he mentions "where there is no law"? Is he thinking of tribal groups and people who haven't heard the gospel or the Law of Moses? Is he saying those people are then innocent?.

Paul was speaking in the context of the Mosiac law. Paul is speaking about the Jews in chapter 2 onward, it is in this context your passage is to be found. Most of the time when Paul speaks of law it the Mosiac Law he is referring to.

 

[jeffweeder]

I get the first part of his idea, that the law condemns. Because it reflects God's perfect nature and standards and we are sinful human beings then it should bring to light our sins. It is that second part of verse 15 that I am struggling with.

15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

I dont think it refers to other people, but is saying that we are not under law, we dont look at the law for salvation, but we look to Christ who fulfilled the law.

If you were to recieve the Spirit of Christ, then i think you would uphold the law, because its about loving your neighbour properly and giving God the glory.

But remember our own efforts in keeping this law, is not how you were saved.

be diligent to be found by him at his coming without spot and wrinkle all the same.

 

[childofGod31]

I was thinking about the people that lived before the law came into being. Perhaps they will be judged by whether they have been good or bad (according to nature, instincts of right and wrong ...)

I am not sure about what Paul means when he said about "where there is no law". It could be that he meant it as a way of explaining, or it could be that he meant those people who didn't have the law (like Gentiles). Could anyone really tell?

Communication is flaud and sometimes the words we say do not accurately express the meaning of what we are actually thinking or feeling. I wish I knew what PAUL was thinking when he said that... Or what Jesus really meant when He said things He said...

 

[bigdAddyweAve423]

At one point in history there was no law, right??

From Adam to Moses, there was no law. I believe that is what Paul is referring to.

 

[jsimms615]

At one point in history there was no law, right??

From Adam to Moses, there was no law. I believe that is what Paul is referring to.

Yes, I am aware of that. Nobody seems to understand what I am trying to ask. My point was, is Paul saying that because there was no law at that point that they would not be considered guilty? If that is true, then does that same truth apply to people who have never heard of the law?

 

[bigdAddyweAve423]

Yes, I am aware of that. Nobody seems to understand what I am trying to ask. My point was, is Paul saying that because there was no law at that point that they would not be considered guilty? If that is true, then does that same truth apply to people who have never heard of the law?

I think Paul answers that question in 2 parts - In Romans 5:13-14 & Romans 1:19-20.

In Romans 5:13-14, Paul talks about before the law.

In Romans 1:19-20, Paul talks about how since creation that God's Divine Nature & Eternal Power have been seen clearly.

I hope this helps.

 

[SGM4HIM]

I DON'T THINK WE CAN CONCLUDE FROM ADAM TO MOSES THERE WAS NO LAW,BASED ON GENESIS 26:5 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws."
IT ALSO SEEMS WE GENTILES WHO HAVE NOT OFFICIALLY BEEN GIVEN THE LAW, KNOW SOMETHING'S UP ROMANS 2:14 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

I BELIEVE PAUL MAY BE SAYING IN ROMANS 4:15 THAT TRYING TO OBTAIN RIGHTEOUSNESS[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] BY ONLY KEEPING THE LAW WILL BRING WRATH.; YOU HAVE TO HAVE FAITH NO MATTER WHAT YOUR BACKGROUND IS.



[/FONT]

 

[plmarquette]

The Law ( genesis to deuteronomy) , specifically Leviticus [ministers & ministry] , and deuteronomy [ social, health, & dietary laws ] ...cannot save you,
it simply points to sin , rebellion , and submission ...

Abraham believed for 25 years , the promise of God , the name changes (covenant language) abram-abraham ; sari-sarah ... that God would bring him a son (rom 4.17)did not give credence to the fact that sarah was too old and he was dried up ... God Said , by faith (Hebrews chapter 11 )

At that time there was no church , nor the law of moses , nor priests , prophets , or kings to look to ... Abraham heard the " still soft voice of god " believed in what he heard , and acted upon it in faith = justiciation ( found in good standing with God ).

 

[PETE_]

The context of this verse is that Paul is saying that Abraham was justified based on his faith in God and not in the law. In verse 14 he basically says that if it is possible to be justified by the law then faith is made void.
Then in verse 15 he goes on to say, "for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, neither is there violation" (NASV) The KJV uses the word "Transgression" instead of violation.

What I am wondering about is where is Paul thinking of when he mentions "where there is no law"? Is he thinking of tribal groups and people who haven't heard the gospel or the Law of Moses? Is he saying those people are then innocent?
I get the first part of his idea, that the law condemns. Because it reflects God's perfect nature and standards and we are sinful human beings then it should bring to light our sins. It is that second part of verse 15 that I am struggling with.

Paul then stated a related general principle: And where there is no law, there is no transgression. A person may still be sinning in his action, but if there is no command prohibiting it his action does not have the character of a transgression, an overstepping of a prohibition (Rom. 5:13).

13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.http://www.christianforums.com/t4629340-romans-415.html#_ftn1​

http://www.christianforums.com/t4629340-romans-415.html#_ftnref1

 

[jsimms615]

The Law ( genesis to deuteronomy) , specifically Leviticus [ministers & ministry] , and deuteronomy [ social, health, & dietary laws ] ...cannot save you,
it simply points to sin , rebellion , and submission ...

Abraham believed for 25 years , the promise of God , the name changes (covenant language) abram-abraham ; sari-sarah ... that God would bring him a son (rom 4.17)did not give credence to the fact that sarah was too old and he was dried up ... God Said , by faith (Hebrews chapter 11 )

At that time there was no church , nor the law of moses , nor priests , prophets , or kings to look to ... Abraham heard the " still soft voice of god " believed in what he heard , and acted upon it in faith = justiciation ( found in good standing with God ).

Yes, you are right. But, what I am asking is can there be sin if there is no law. Paul seems to be saying "no". But, then he refers to the Gentiles who have the law written on their hearts and not a written law.
I understand that the point of the law is not to law. It is our tutor to lead us to Christ. The law makes us aware that we fall short. But, is there no law or sense of what is right or wrong before there was a law? Man's sense of right and wrong is solely depenent on the law is it?

 

[SGM4HIM]

GENESIS 26:5 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
1CORINTHIANS 7:19
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Note this is before and after the Mosaic Law was given. Please keep this in mind when interpreting other scriptures.
[/FONT]

 

[jsimms615]

GENESIS 26:5 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
1CORINTHIANS 7:19
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Note this is before and after the Mosaic Law was given. Please keep this in mind when interpreting other scriptures.
[/FONT]

It is interesting isn't it that Abraham was said to obey the law and commandments before they were written down. Yet, he was justified by faith when he took God at his word and believed him and his promises.

 

[Bick]

Quote:
"Yes, you are right. But, what I am asking is can there be sin if there is no law. Paul seems to be saying "no". But, then he refers to the Gentiles who have the law written on their hearts and not a written law.
I understand that the point of the law is not to law. It is our tutor to lead us to Christ. The law makes us aware that we fall short. But, is there no law or sense of what is right or wrong before there was a law? Man's sense of right and wrong is solely depenent on the law is it?"

It's been said, but let's read it again: Rom. 2:12ff
"All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law," Certainly, there are nations and
peoples in the past prior to the giving of the Mosaic Law, just as there are today in the world who know nothing of the Law, and they will be judged from the laws of their own conscience, not from the Law.

Again, as previously quoted, skip over to Rom. 5:12-14
"Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned--sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who sins were not like the transgressions of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come." RSV.

To me, this means, they will not be judged from the Mosaic Law.

My suggestion: read the first 5 chapters of Romans a number of times.