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Romans 2 shows both succeeding and Failing examples

BobRyan

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In Matt 7 Christ uses the term "EVERYONE" when he contrasts those who hear his words AND obey -- vs those who hear and who DO NOT obey.

The idea that "you can rebel against God if you are not a prophet" is not in Matt 7.

And what is worse -- Paul argues that you cause the "name of God to be blasphemed among the gentiles" if in fact you rejoice in the law through breaking the law.

Rom 2 -- Paul speaking

21 you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal?
22 You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
23 You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God?
24 For "THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU," just as it is written. [/b]

So here is the question for Bible-believing Christians -

Do Bible Believing Christians (including non-SDAs) "teach"?? Do they "preach"??

do they claim that men should or should NOT commit adultery?

These are the questions Paul asks.

Then Paul points to those who have the Word of God and TEACH that adultery is wrong -- that they are causing the "Name of God to be blasphemed among the gentiles" if while preaching they are also "boasting in the law THROUGH BREAKING the law"

For as Paul says in Rom 2:13 "IT is not the HEARERS of the Law that are JUSt before God but the DOERS fo the Law WILL BE justified"

We will look at that some more in the next post.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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Bob quotes Paul in Romans 2 --

Romans 2
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life ;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness[/font], wrath and indignation
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul oaf man who does evil , of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek

11 For there is no partiality with God.





25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

1. Paul argues IN FAVOR of being a Jew "inwardly"

Yes Paul makes that argument. But you never answered my question. Why was he making that argument in the first place?

Paul is arguing in vs 7-16 that among BOTH "Jew AND Gentile" there are those who are saved and there are those who are lost. Paul argues that the difference is not an "arbitrary selection process" on God's part - rather the difference is that some Jews AND Gentiles CHOOSE to accept the Gospel and to walk in the "PERSEVERANCE" of Rom 2:7 and some do not.

Paul argues that simply claiming you are a Bible-believer -- "a jew" in this case - does not automatically get you in.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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Byfaithalone1

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Do Bible Believing Christians (including non-SDAs) "teach"?? Do they "preach"??

Many people have much to say. How much of it is true?

do they claim that men should or should NOT commit adultery?

The Spirit--and not men--should be our source of conviction regarding sin and righteousness and judgment. Since this thread discusses the book of Romans, I'm hoping that you've read the context of Paul's comments on the commandment not to commit adultery (see Romans 7:1-8).

For as Paul says in Rom 2:13 "IT is not the HEARERS of the Law that are JUSt before God but the DOERS fo the Law WILL BE justified"
According to Paul, how many are good? how many are prisoners of sin? how many are doers of the law?

Paul argues IN FAVOR of being a Jew "inwardly"

Does his words in Romans 7:1-8 (same book, audience and time period) lead us to conclude that he believes that the law is the way that this is accomplished?
Paul is arguing in vs 7-16 that among BOTH "Jew AND Gentile" there are those who are saved and there are those who are lost. Paul argues that the difference is not an "arbitrary selection process" on God's part - rather the difference is that some Jews AND Gentiles CHOOSE to accept the Gospel and to walk in the "PERSEVERANCE" of Rom 2:7 and some do not.

So are we saved by perservering in doing good?

I'm looking forward to your thoughts on my last two posts.

BFA
 
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BobRyan

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Rom 2 -- Paul speaking

21 you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal?
22 You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
23 You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God?
24 For "THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU," just as it is written. [/b]

So here is the question for Bible-believing Christians -

Do Bible Believing Christians (including non-SDAs) "teach" that men should not engage in adultery or fornication (Acts 15)??

Do they "preach" that men should abstain from idols (Acts 15)??

do they claim that men should or should NOT commit adultery?

These are the questions Paul asks.

Then Paul points to those who have the Word of God and TEACH that adultery is wrong -- that they are causing the "Name of God to be blasphemed among the gentiles" if while preaching they are also "boasting in the law THROUGH BREAKING the law"

For as Paul says in Rom 2:13 "IT is not the HEARERS of the Law that are JUSt before God but the DOERS fo the Law WILL BE justified"


Many people have much to say. How much of it is true?

ahh yes Pilate's "what is truth" argument.

Still the point above remains.

The Spirit--and not men--should be our source of conviction regarding sin and righteousness and judgment.

And yet abstaining from idols and fornication IS found as a command to the church in Acts 15 -- as much as you now seem to want to appear to be against such teaching and preaching.

Hint: in Romans 2 Paul is not condemning the Christian position of preaching against sin -- as much as you seem to think this is the "problem" he is addressing.

Since this thread discusses the book of Romans, I'm hoping that you've read the context of Paul's comments on the commandment not to commit adultery (see Romans 7:1-8).

Actually -- in Rom 7 Paul is firm that the Ten Commandments are Holy Just and Good -- and that "with my MIND I AM SERVING the LAW of God".

hence in 1Cor 7:19 Paul can argue "WHAT MATTERS is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

According to Paul, how many are good? how many are prisoners of sin? how many are doers of the law?


In Romans 6 Paul argues that if sin is your master then you are not a servant of righteousness and you can only expect the outcome -- the 2nd death "the wages of sin is death".

in Romans 2:7-13 Paul makes that same case repeatedly for the lost and CONTRASTS it with the case of the saved -- the case of those who "PERSEVERE in doing good works".

Paul's argument is that "it is NOT the HEARERS of the Law that are just" - but the "DOERS" of the Law WILL be "justified... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will JUDGE the secrets of all mankind" Rom 2:13-16.


Does his words in Romans 7:1-8 (same book, audience and time period) lead us to conclude that he believes that the law is the way that this is accomplished?

Paul never argues that the "LAW is savior"

He also never argues that "law BREAKING is for Christians".

Rather in 1Cor 6 Paul says "BE NOT DECEIVED..neither adulterers, nor fornicators nor... shall enter the kingdom of heaven - and SUCH WERE some of you"


But getting back to Rom 2:7 you seem to struggle with it as you say

BFA
So are we saved by perservering in doing good?

As long as you approach the law of God from the positoin of the one who is LOST you are correct that "perseverance" as we find in Rom 2:7 is not the answer.

But once you are SAVED -- then you the issue of the "GOOD TREE" of Matt 7 and the issue of PERSEVERANCE of the SAINTS as we see in Rom 2:7.

A bible doctrine accepted by Arminians AND by 3 and 5 point Calvinists.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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In Matt 5 Christ argues that ALL the LAW REMAINs.

In Matt 7 Christ is concluding the "sermon on the mount" discussion in Matt 5.

Christ continues to AFFIRM the LAW of GOD "Think not that I have come to ABOLISH the LAW of GOD" Christ said.

in John 14:15 "IF you LOVE Me KEEP my COMMANDMENTS" - this is a pre-cross understanding of the term "COMMANDMENTS".

So also in Matt 7 Christ said that the "by their fruit" test applies to ALL --

"EVERYONE who HEARS these words of mine AND ACTS on them"

Christ argues the general rule for heaven "NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will ENTER the kingdom of heaven but HE WHO DOES the will of my Father"

And which words are those?
  • "Do not judge so that you will not be judged."
  • "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."
  • "In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you."
  • "Beware of the false prophets."
Nothing here about sabbath keeping!

As it turns out - the Gospel text is longer than that.


Speaking of the Pre-CROSS context for the term "COMMANDMENTS"

"IF you Love Me KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS" John 14:15

COMMANDMENTS also quoted in Matt 19:17-18.


Same idea - POST cross

"But what matters is KEEPING the commandments of GOD" 1 Cor 7:19

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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Who are the parties to the new covenant?

ALL the HEb 11 saints - and ALL the NT saints.

Gal 1:6-11 there is only ONE Gospel

Gal 3:7 the Gospel was preached to ABRAHAM

Heb 4:2 The "Gospel was preached to US JUST as it was to them ALSO"

There is no teaching by Christ that sinlessness is the way to heaven.

Ahh yes - there you circle back to the POV of the LAW of God from the perspetive of the LOST person. I always agree that the LAW of God is "not a savior" it is not how the lost becomes saved.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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Byfaithalone1

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Ahh yes - there you circle back to the POV of the LAW of God from the perspetive of the LOST person. I always agree that the LAW of God is "not a savior" it is not how the lost becomes saved.

It would seem that you believe that the law is basis upon which a justified person maintains the free gift of salvation. If I've misunderstood your position, please clarify.

BFA
 
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BobRyan

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Paul says "it is not the HEARERS of the law that are JUST before God but the DOERS of the LAW WILL be JustifIED ... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God WILL judge the secrets of all mankind" Rom 2:13-16

Jesus said of the good vs bad trees "by their FRUITS you shall know them ... not evereyone who SAYS Lord Lord will ENTER the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father" Matt 7

I believe that both Christ and Paul are addressing the SAME point. You do not CHANGE the tree by LOOKING at it. If it is a good tree that SEEING it does not turn it into a bad one.

That is the point.

The Bible doctrine of perseverance of the saints is not a case of a lost person BECOMING a saint -- it is a case of a saint SEEN to be a saint!

Even more to the point -- it is direct Bible contradiction of the error of OSAS. We do not earn heaven by good works - but we SHOW that the tree remains a good tree by the evidence of what Christ calls "fruits". Turns out -- Christ is right.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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Byfaithalone1

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Paul says "it is not the HEARERS of the law that are JUST before God but the DOERS of the LAW WILL be JustifIED ... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God WILL judge the secrets of all mankind" Rom 2:13-16

Oh, the folly of omitting the context:
"What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it? May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written,
"THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS,
AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED."
But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.) May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world? But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner? And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), "Let us do evil that good may come"? Their condemnation is just. What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written,
"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
"THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,"
"THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
"WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
"THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
"THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES." Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Where then is boasting? It is excluded By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."
"For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."

"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

"Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death."

"Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."
"Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
Jesus said of the good vs bad trees "by their FRUITS you shall know them ... not evereyone who SAYS Lord Lord will ENTER the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father" Matt 7

Again, the context is missing:
"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit."
BFA
 
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BobRyan

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In Matt 7 it is "EVERYONE who hears these words of mine AND acts on them is like a man who built his house on the rock" not just "false prophets who hear these words of mine" as some have supposed for Matt 7.

In Matt 7 it is "NOT EVERYONE who says Lord lord will enter the kingdom of heaven - but he who DOES the will of my Father" -- not "not all false prophets who say Lord Lord but just those false prophets that DO the will of my Father" as some have imagined.

In Romans 2 we have the glaring fact that BOTH the succeeding AND the failing cases are listed when some would like to have imagined that ONLY failing cases are examined in Romans 2.

Rom 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

17 But if you bear the name "Jew" and rely upon the Law and boast in God,
18 and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law,
19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,
20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth,

21 you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal?
22 You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
23 You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God?
24 For "THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU," just as it is written.



Which begs the question for those who claim to ignore the Law of God -- "do you cause the name of God to be blasphemed among the gentiles" through your boasting and through your breaking the Law?

Do you preach and teach that adultery is wrong -- that idolatry is wrong?

Hint - read the council's decision in Act 15 before you trash that part of God's Word as well.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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Byfaithalone1

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Which begs the question for those who claim to ignore the Law of God --

I've yet to see anyone in this forum make that claim.

through your boasting and through your breaking the Law?

I've yet to see anyone in this forum boast about such things.

"do you cause the name of God to be blasphemed among the gentiles"

(1) We are the Gentiles;

(2) The verse does not refer to those who boast about breaking the law, but rather to those who boast about keeping it;

(3) You--BobRyan--who preach that people should not steal, do you steal?

(4) You--BobRyan--who preach that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery?

Do you preach and teach that adultery is wrong -- that idolatry is wrong?

When contemplating the conviction of sin and righteousness and judgment, should we conclude that such tasks are the responsibility of Byfaithalone1 or that such tasks are the responsibility of the Holy Spirit?

Hint - read the council's decision in Act 15 before you trash that part of God's Word as well.

Trash? A bit unnecessary, don't you think?
"Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are." Acts 15
BFA
 
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BobRyan

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By AT:
Works or performance may justify your faith as genuine faith before others, but never God.
[/indent]

BobRyan

Hmmm the text about "justifying your faith before God" -- I guess I missed that one. Please quote it.

The closest I see is when God himself says "NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord..." Matt 7

Is this where you paraphrase to mean "claims to have faith"?? If so.. then ok - I agree!

Once again - we may be good on this point as well.
My only point is that justification by works in James 2 is only a validation that your faith is genuine. Your works testify that you have genuine faith before others and never God. Our Lord does not need to see your works to determine if we are genuine.

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:17 (KJV)

Ahh so then we ARE on the same page!

Agreed.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan


21 you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal?
22 You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
23 You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God?
24 For "THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU," just as it is written.


Which begs the question for those who claim to ignore the Law of God -- "do you cause the name of God to be blasphemed among the gentiles" through your boasting and through your breaking the Law?

Do you preach and teach that adultery is wrong -- that idolatry is wrong?

Hint - read the council's decision in Act 15 before you trash that part of God's Word as well.


(1) We are the Gentiles;

(2) The verse does not refer to those who boast about breaking the law, but rather to those who boast about keeping it;

(3) You--BobRyan--who preach that people should not steal, do you steal?

(4) You--BobRyan--who preach that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery?

BFA

Well IF you had read Acts 15 you would find this --

24 "" Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls,
25 it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 "" Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth.
28 "" For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials:
29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.''

Now let us compare the instructions above - to the ones Paul claims that the Bible believers were also proclaiming in Rome.

Rom 2
21 you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal?
22 You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?

Clearly IT IS THE same MESSAGE ABOUT sin. Paul is not arguing in favor of sin -- he is arguing against it!!

23 You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God?
24 For "THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU," just as it is written.

Paul is arguing against sin. He does not say "stop telling people to do what the Acts 15 council said - so you can sin a get by with it" RATHER he is saying "stop sinning while you tell people what the Acts 15 council said". When you say one thing and DO another - you "cause the name of God to be blasphemed" among non-believers.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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Byfaithalone1

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Well IF you had read Acts 15
My post reveals that I have.


Paul is not arguing in favor of sin -- he is arguing against it!!
Paul is not arguing in favor of the law either. In fact, he is clearly arguing against those who boast in the law. I assert that any person who claims that law keeping will one day become the final test that determines who is of God and who is not of God is a person who boasts in the law.

With that said, I would note that I am not arguing in favor of sin and never have. Rather, I simply note that I am a sinner in need of salvation. That isn't an endorsement of sin but rather an acknowledgment of who I really am in comparison with who HE is.

We can argue against sin, but in so doing will we create sinless people? Is Paul arguing against sin or against hypocrisy?

When you say one thing and DO another - you "cause the name of God to be blasphemed" among non-believers.
Who among us is not guilty of saying one thing and doing another?

I am interested in your take on the things I wrote in my last post, specifically the following:
(1) We are the Gentiles;

(2) The verse does not refer to those who boast about breaking the law, but rather to those who boast about keeping it;

(3) You--BobRyan--who preach that people should not steal, do you steal?

(4) You--BobRyan--who preach that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery?

When contemplating the conviction of sin and righteousness and judgment, should we conclude that such tasks are the responsibility of Byfaithalone1 or that such tasks are the responsibility of the Holy Spirit?
These words from Acts 15 continue to echo in my ears:
"Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."
BFA
 
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BobRyan

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Paul is not arguing in favor of the law either.

Rom 3:31 "Do we then abolish the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God"

1Cor 7:19 "But what MATTERS is KEEPING the Commandments of God".

In Romans 2 Paul condemns those who "Boast in the law through their BREAKING The LAW of God".

Rom 2
21 you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal?
22 you who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
23 you who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God?
24for “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” just as it is written.


Titus 1

15 To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.
16 They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.

Do you preach that men should not steal? That adultery is wrong? That idolatry is wrong?

In fact who was doing this very thing in Paul’s day!!??

Acts 15:
22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and BarnabasJudas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren,
23 and they sent this letter by them, "" The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings.
24 "" Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls,
25 it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 "" Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth.
28 "" For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials:
29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.''

Is the name of God blasphemed among the gentiles because of your “Boasting in the Law through your BREAKING the Law”?


Are you one who professes to “know God” and yet by your deeds you “deny Him”? Titus 1:16

Are you one whom John calls “A liar” – the one who claims to “know Christ” but then does not “walk as He Walked”??


1John 2

3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, "" I have come to know Him,'' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.


1 Cor 7:19 “What MATTERS is keeping the Commandments of God”


Rom 3:31 “Do we then make VOID the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God”

How innexplicable then the statement -

Paul is not arguing in favor of the law either.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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With that said, I would note that I am not arguing in favor of sin and never have. Rather, I simply note that I am a sinner in need of salvation.

And in all this time have you finally found salvation?

Recall that Paul is speaking about "perseverance" of the saints in Roman 2:7 not about "perseverance of the lost sinner in remaining lost".

your solution is to continually circle back to the context of the lost sinner to try to get around Paul's argument in Romans 2.

BFA

Who among us is not guilty of saying one thing and doing another?

I am interested in your take on the things I wrote in my last post, specifically the following:
(1) We are the Gentiles;

(2) The verse does not refer to those who boast about breaking the law, but rather to those who boast about keeping it;


Actually they "boast In the law THROUGH their BREAKING the LAW."

BFA
(3) You--BobRyan--who preach that people should not steal, do you steal?

(4) You--BobRyan--who preach that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery?

When contemplating the conviction of sin and righteousness and judgment, should we conclude that such tasks are the responsibility of Byfaithalone1 or that such tasks are the responsibility of the Holy Spirit?

If your argument is that Paul claimed "I preach that men should not steal BUT I STEAL because we all HAVE to steal no matter what -- forget that perseverance of the sainst stuff" -- then I have to say -- I don't see Paul arguing that at all.

Instead of Paul arguing "Well of course we all steal so stop telling people not to steal" or "Well of course we all commit fornication so stop telling gentiles to cease from fornication" Paul argues that IF one claims to KNOW God and then walks as a lost sinner - they cause the "name of God to be blasphemed among the gentiles".

Some have "presumed" that the solution (to protect their sinning) is simply to STOP telling Gentiles to the things that the Act 15 council ordered so that they will not be guilty of hypocrasy.

That solution is rather short sighted in my opinion and fails to take in all the inconvenient details of scripture. As pointed out in my previous post.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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Byfaithalone1

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And in all this time have you finally found salvation?

I have assurance of salvation, yes.

Recall that Paul is speaking about "perseverance" of the saints in Roman 2:7 not about "perseverance of the lost sinner in remaining lost".

Paul does not suggest that such perserverence is the means whereby the justified sinner maintains his justification. Your denomination does.

If your argument is that Paul claimed "I preach that men should not steal BUT I STEAL because we all HAVE to steal no matter what -- forget that perseverance of the sainst stuff" -- then I have to say -- I don't see Paul arguing that at all.

Please read chapter 7 in the same book written by the same author to the same audience. Paul is indeed arguing that.

Some have "presumed" that the solution (to protect their sinning) is simply to STOP telling Gentiles to the things that the Act 15 council ordered so that they will not be guilty of hypocrasy.

Was the Acts 15 compromise intended to represent the minimum requirements for salvation or was it intended to represent the basis whereby a person would be identified as being part of a specific group of people?

BFA
 
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BobRyan

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Bob said
Recall that Paul is speaking about "perseverance" of the saints in Roman 2:7 not about "perseverance of the lost sinner in remaining lost".
BFA
Paul does not suggest that such perserverence is the means whereby the justified sinner maintains his justification.

1. Works better if you actually quote me when tryint to put words in my mouth.

2. Also works well if you don't like Rom 2:7 -- to actually exegete the text - by noting the details IN the text.

In the doctrine of "perserverance" vs "open Rebellion" we see Romans 2 providing a perfect illustration to the point of Paul's argument that those in rebellion against God and yet claiming to KNOW God are causing the name of God to be "blasphemed among the Gentiles".

As we all saw in my posts above -

Rom 3:31 "Do we then abolish the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God"

1Cor 7:19 "But what MATTERS is KEEPING the Commandments of God".

In Romans 2 Paul condemns those who "Boast in the law through their BREAKING The LAW of God".

Rom 2
21 you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal?
22 you who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
23 you who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God?
24for “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” just as it is written.


Titus 1

15 To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.
16 They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.

Bob to BFA
If your argument is that Paul claimed "I preach that men should not steal BUT I STEAL because we all HAVE to steal no matter what -- forget that perseverance of the sainst stuff" -- then I have to say -- I don't see Paul arguing that at all.
BFA -
Please read chapter 7 in the same book

So in this Romans 2 topic Thread your argument is -- Romans 2 "bad" and then Romans 7 "better"??

Surely not.


in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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Was the Acts 15 compromise intended to represent the minimum requirements for salvation or was it intended to represent the basis whereby a person would be identified as being part of a specific group of people?

BFA

None of the above.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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