Romans 14

[Cris413]

Abstinence from liquor and tobacco would be examples of self-denying liberties; that's the essence of Rom 14; less about the weaker brother, more on the stronger brother's actions to help the weaker.

Now to some degree every one is weaker to some and stronger to others; how do we know in a given situation if we are being the weaker or stronger brother?

(...and waiting for my invite to Southern BBQ )

Sometimes I consider....especially participating in some of these threads...that endless debate over certain issues...may actually be causing another to stumble. Especially if we fall into fleshly moments...like someone flames or baits another....then that person responds in likekind.

I found myself guilty of that in my recent experience in Theology and should have left the convo waaay before I did...I was just making the guy more and more angry...to no point what-so-ever...and shoud have never allowed myself to be baited into continuing a pointless convo.

I guess...that's the real strength perhaps...not being affraid to be perceived as weak or lacking understanding or wrong...or understanding we all are weak...and can do nothing in our own strength...

2Co 12:9 And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

I dunno....sometimes I think...when we consider we are strong...or stronger than others...pride issues can be a stumbling block for ourselves and others.

And you and the fam are always welcome for BBQ!....Our backyard is your backyard!....

 

[MrJim]

Sometimes I consider....especially participating in some of these threads...that endless debate over certain issues...may actually be causing another to stumble. Especially if we fall into fleshly moments...like someone flames or baits another....then that person responds in likekind.

I found myself guilty of that in my recent experience in Theology and should have left the convo waaay before I did...I was just making the guy more and more angry...to no point what-so-ever...and shoud have never allowed myself to be baited into continuing a pointless convo.

I guess...that's the real strength perhaps...not being affraid to be perceived as weak or lacking understanding or wrong...or understanding we all are weak...and can do nothing in our own strength...

2Co 12:9 And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

I dunno....sometimes I think...when we consider we are strong...or stronger than others...pride issues can be a stumbling block for ourselves and others.

And you and the fam are always welcome for BBQ!....Our backyard is your backyard!....

I avoid some threads and agree with something Naadine said long ago about not inviting new Christians to this site~it would not be helpful for them...I can't imagine what sort of turmoil I'd been in if dropped into this all those years ago :o

I think about the real world though~from this passage it sounds like it is more important to deny self, even if self is practicing correct teaching, than to have a brother stumble. This requires several things, one of which is actually knowing our brother well enough to avoid being a stumbling block. It sure is easier to coax and try to persuade that something is OK when it would be better to go their route. I expect that a case would be like if I was visiting family and they believed (taking NorrinRadd's example) that Xmas shouldn't be celebrated and so I wouldn't. YET the opposite could be true too; if I didn't believe it should be celebrated and visited family and they did celebrate then I would engage in the celebration with them...some of the examples given can seem to go either way and yet still be fine, as in the passage given...this passage is simply an underline to what Jesus taught "Love your neighbor as yourself"; "Deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow me".

 

[Cris413]

I avoid some threads and agree with something Naadine said long ago about not inviting new Christians to this site~it would not be helpful for them...I can't imagine what sort of turmoil I'd been in if dropped into this all those years ago :o

I think about the real world though~from this passage it sounds like it is more important to deny self, even if self is practicing correct teaching, than to have a brother stumble. This requires several things, one of which is actually knowing our brother well enough to avoid being a stumbling block. It sure is easier to coax and try to persuade that something is OK when it would be better to go their route. I expect that a case would be like if I was visiting family and they believed (taking NorrinRadd's example) that Xmas shouldn't be celebrated and so I wouldn't. YET the opposite could be true too; if I didn't believe it should be celebrated and visited family and they did celebrate then I would engage in the celebration with them...some of the examples given can seem to go either way and yet still be fine, as in the passage given...this passage is simply an underline to what Jesus taught "Love your neighbor as yourself"; "Deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow me".

Much of what I posted pertains to the real world...just using some experience in CF as an example. Pointless arguing IRL is just as troublesome...(just doesn't happen as often...)

Yes...I totally agree...denying oneself...particularly for the benefit of someone else....

And I think...as mentioned in another thread...denying oneself...IMHO...is an indicator of real growth as a Believer.

And I think we tend to relate to new Believers differently than seasoned Believers....and differently with unbelievers as well...

 

[MrJim]

Much of what I posted pertains to the real world...just using some experience in CF as an example. Pointless arguing IRL is just as troublesome...(just doesn't happen as often...)

Yes...I totally agree...denying oneself...particularly for the benefit of someone else....

And I think...as mentioned in another thread...denying oneself...IMHO...is an indicator of real growth as a Believer.

And I think we tend to relate to new Believers differently than seasoned Believers....and differently with unbelievers as well...

What's interesting is that in many cases a new believer isn't always wrong in their approach to something~I think we often look at things in "black and white" (which indeed many things are) but in practice there is a scale, much as we deal with children. We want new believers to be "mature" like us, while I bet at the same time there are others looking at us waiting for us to grow up more too

 

[Cris413]

What's interesting is that in many cases a new believer isn't always wrong in their approach to something~I think we often look at things in "black and white" (which indeed many things are) but in practice there is a scale, much as we deal with children. We want new believers to be "mature" like us, while I bet at the same time there are others looking at us waiting for us to grow up more too

Right...I know one thing...I probably learn more from the kids I teach...than they will ever learn from me...

And the fire of new Believers...how encouraging...and often times...can ignite that spark...that used to be a raging fire in some of us who have "matured"...

 

[MrJim]

Right...I know one thing...I probably learn more from the kids I teach...than they will ever learn from me...

And the fire of new Believers...how encouraging...and often times...can ignite that spark...that used to be a raging fire in some of us who have "matured"...

An old mennonite preacher I knew spoke about childlike faith; marking the difference between child-like and child-ish~~we tend look down somewhat at the immature childlike new believer I think...tolerating their mistakes and naive & optimistic outlook; yet there is much there, as you say, that we can learn. We have to want to grow up along with them more than just try to shape them into our image.

.."matured", that's like the last step before the grave I wonder how much I've missed by not denying self with newer believers, and instead try to talk them into stuff I think is right....

 

[Cris413]

An old mennonite preacher I knew spoke about childlike faith; marking the difference between child-like and child-ish~~we tend look down somewhat at the immature childlike new believer I think...tolerating their mistakes and naive & optimistic outlook; yet there is much there, as you say, that we can learn. We have to want to grow up along with them more than just try to shape them into our image.

.."matured", that's like the last step before the grave I wonder how much I've missed by not denying self with newer believers, and instead try to talk them into stuff I think is right....

Mat 18:1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
Mat 18:2 Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them,
Mat 18:3 and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:5 Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.

I'm really looking forward to continuing with my hubby in our study through Romans...particularly the portion you posted....

...that's a long way off though...it's taken weeks to get through the 1st chapter....the study is by Chuck Missler...and he's VERY detailed in his teachings.

 

[MrJim]

Mat 18:1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
Mat 18:2 Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them,
Mat 18:3 and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:5 Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.

I'm really looking forward to continuing with my hubby in our study through Romans...particularly the portion you posted....

...that's a long way off though...it's taken weeks to get through the 1st chapter....the study is by Chuck Missler...and he's VERY detailed in his teachings.

I don't know him~~remember when ya do studies like that to also check what other people say about stuff..even those calvinists often have some good input on stuff Gathering info from all sorts, even Cath & Orthodox & those freaky mennonites, add to an overall study...my wife comes home from her studies (she mostly does those Beth Moore things at church) and we look at other viewpoints too.

 

[Cris413]

I don't know him~~remember when ya do studies like that to also check what other people say about stuff..even those calvinists often have some good input on stuff Gathering info from all sorts, even Cath & Orthodox & those freaky mennonites, add to an overall study...my wife comes home from her studies (she mostly does those Beth Moore things at church) and we look at other viewpoints too.

Yes...and we generally do get around to studies by others....LOL...it's not like we study Scripture once...then we're done...

Hubby is really good at cross-referencing studies from mulitple sources.

One of the things we really like a Calvary Chapel pastor-teachers is the exponential study....verse by verse through the entire Book...but we don't limit ourselves to only their teaching.

Lot's of really good denominational teachers out there too...

ummm...I see you have a faith icon now...and I'm embarrassed to say...I have no idea what Anabaptist is....or Mennonite either....

 

[JustAsIam77]

I'm really looking forward to continuing with my hubby in our study through Romans...particularly the portion you posted....

...that's a long way off though...it's taken weeks to get through the 1st chapter....the study is by Chuck Missler...and he's VERY detailed in his teachings.

Here's a link to Martin Luthers commentary of Romans. I found it helpful in my study & understanding of Romans.

Martin Luther's Commentary on the Bible

 

[Cris413]

Here's a link to Martin Luthers commentary of Romans. I found it helpful in my study.

Martin Luther's Commentary on the Bible

Thank you....Chuck Missler actually went into quite a bit of detail of the history of Martin Luther in this study. He used ML's history and the Reformation as a preface to the Scripture study of Romans...very interesting indeed!

I'll definitely check it out...thanks again....

 

[ReformedChapin]

Here's a link to Martin Luthers commentary of Romans. I found it helpful in my study & understanding of Romans.

Martin Luther's Commentary on the Bible

Luthers is a good overall commentary on Romans. I found Calvin's commentary to be more insightful in verse by verse format.

http://files.libertyfund.org/files/537/Calvin_0037_EBk_v4.pdf

 

[JustAsIam77]

Thank you....Chuck Missler actually went into quite a bit of detail of the history of Martin Luther in this study. He used ML's history and the Reformation as a preface to the Scripture study of Romans...very interesting indeed!

I'll definitely check it out...thanks again....

You're quite welcome sister. Luthers commentary was an inspiration to me personally. He goes into great depth & detail.

I hope it's as much a blessing to you as it was for me.

Romans is at the top of my list as favorite books in scripture.

 

[MrJim]

Exposition~the reformed baptist church I was part of; the pastor had spent 13 years working through Luke's gospel (a lot of side tracks along the way I guess )

 

[Cris413]

Exposition~the reformed baptist church I was part of; the pastor had spent 13 years working through Luke's gospel (a lot of side tracks along the way I guess )

That's gotta set some kinda record!

 

[NorrinRadd]

...
One of the things we really like a Calvary Chapel pastor-teachers is the exponential study...

Yeah, exponentials are fascinating mathematical functions.

ummm...I see you have a faith icon now...and I'm embarrassed to say...I have no idea what Anabaptist is....or Mennonite either....

Anabaptist Web home.

"Anabaptist" literally = "Baptize again" or "Re-baptizers." IIRC, it was originally a pejorative term applied by their critics. It refers to the fact that they were early Reformation-era proponents of "believers' baptism," as opposed to "infant baptism." They believed that it was necessary to be baptized as part of a conscious volitional profession of faith, even if one had already been baptized as a baby. They were part of what was known as the "Radical Reformation," and in their early days were persecuted.

They comprise such groups as Mennonites, Amish, and Hutterites.

 

[MrJim]

"Anabaptist" literally = "Baptize again" or "Re-baptizers." IIRC, it was originally a pejorative term applied by their critics. It refers to the fact that they were early Reformation-era proponents of "believers' baptism," as opposed to "infant baptism." They believed that it was necessary to be baptized as part of a conscious volitional profession of faith, even if one had already been baptized as a baby. They were part of what was known as the "Radical Reformation," and in their early days were persecuted.

They comprise such groups as Mennonites, Amish, and Hutterites.

Yup, very good. While a somewhat obscure group much is owed to them. While the reformers (Luther, Calvin, Zwingli) still embraced the church/state model that anabaptists said the government and the church must be seperate. They often paid for their stance with their lives; they suffered much persecution in the form of exile and death at the hands of the reformers and the Catholics (and some of the anabaptists were real nutjobs~~Munsterites were a violent branch that fulfilled the "live by the sword/die by the sword passage). (If you've ever attended a church where only believers are baptized and free of government meddlin' then thank those radicals ~~much homage is paid to Luther and Calvin but consider if you follow believer's baptism you would be persecuted by them if you lived in their day) Thankfully there has been much forgiveness between the groups. I am a very poor example of anabaptist, yet it seems at the end of the day it is where I belong. Most anabaptism is dead now (just like most mainline churches are dead); too much attention paid to the externals in most conservative groups and utter liberalism in most groups elsewhere..not so different than what everyone else experiences. Guess that's why I'm still attending a baptist church?

The focus in historical anabaptist teaching is the living of the Christian life, less the systematic theology-doctrinal creed...and there is a element there that is demonstrated in Rom 14; that regardless if we are "right" we put others first in our self denial--when we do it. I find it so hard, this self denial thing. Some days I gather such a wind of self righteousness over me I create some kind of master/king mentality that I know what's best for everyone in my religious mind...it is a sad thing.

 

[JimfromOhio]

I have read Romans commentaries from John MacArthur, D. Martin Lloyd-Jones, Martin Luther, John Calvin and an Anabaptist from Grace Seminary (I can't remember the name). I love Anabaptist's view of Romans 14 however, I had spiritual conflict in areas whereas Luther's commentary helped me solved that conflict. The interpretation of Grace was the issue.

One critical difference between Anabaptists and Reformers on the doctrine of the Atonement is that Anabaptists rejected justification by the law as a means of salvation as did the Lutherans and Reformers, but they insisted that those who are saved will follow the law of Christ written in their hearts and do the “works of faith.” It was an external benefit bestowed by God regardless of human involvement. In an Anabaptist model (i.e. Fellowship of Grace Brethren Churches), the atonement is the work of God from beginning to end. God alone provides the means of salvation through the incarnation, life, death, and resurrection of Christ; through the call of God for all to repent and accept the gospel; and through the God-given restoration of the individual’s ability to choose (convicted by the Holy Spirit) to respond to God’s grace. If they do not do this, it is a sign that they have not appropriated the work of Christ in their lives, and therefore the new birth has resulted in a still-birth. Although God has done everything and enough, atonement is not efficacious for that person; the goal of incorporating the individual into the life of the Spirit of God has been aborted. (I am not sure I agree with "abortion" part). I view Lutheran, Reformed and Anabaptist theologies which clearly define the most comprehensive Evangelicalism today even though I am disagree with some parts of the doctrinal theologies.

 

[Cris413]

Yeah, exponentials are fascinating mathematical functions.

NR

LOL...You made me go to Webster's and look...thinking I've been using the wrong word for 20 years...

Anabaptist Web home.

"Anabaptist" literally = "Baptize again" or "Re-baptizers." IIRC, it was originally a pejorative term applied by their critics. It refers to the fact that they were early Reformation-era proponents of "believers' baptism," as opposed to "infant baptism." They believed that it was necessary to be baptized as part of a conscious volitional profession of faith, even if one had already been baptized as a baby. They were part of what was known as the "Radical Reformation," and in their early days were persecuted.

They comprise such groups as Mennonites, Amish, and Hutterites.

Thanks...to you and MrJim...I think I learned sumpin'

 

[MrJim]

Thanks...to you and MrJim...I think I learned sumpin'

One of the things CF has done for me is expose me to all the different streams of the faith; I've found things of value from all, and have been corrected many times on things I "thought" I knew about. At the end of the day I find myself back in the anabaptist camp; still I don't find myself at odds with my apostolic & protestant family. While we each think the other is wrong in some respects of doctrine, the bottom line is we are serving the Lamb as we best understand, and when we love the Lord our God with all our hearts, souls, minds, and spirits and love our neighbor as our self we are then following the greatest commandments and are unified by that.