Romans 14

[MrJim]

Rom 14:1 –Rom 14:23 NKJV
Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things.

For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.

Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.

He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.

But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

For it is written:
“As I live, says the Lord,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God.”

So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.

Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way.

I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.

Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another.

Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.

Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God.

Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

Where do you think this applies for us today? We don't deal much with idol meats now...what are "doubtful" disputes we should beware of?

 

[Cris413]

Thanks for posting this MrJim....it's ummm....good food for thought....

Hubby and I are currently doing a study through Romans which got a bit sidetracked when I went to Ohio...we haven't made it past Chapter One...lots of material to cover...we've been studying Romans for weeks!

I consider the are many doubtful disputes...doctrinal disputes, interprative disputes and such...tons of them daily on these boards....

I guess the defining line would be whether or not something is a discussion which is beneficial and edifying...or a dispute which is not beneficial nor edifying.....and what are the differences between the two?

And of course...refuting false doctrine/teaching....orthodoxy vs unorthodoxy and such....another ingredient to the mix....

 

[MrJim]

Thanks for posting this MrJim....it's ummm....good food for thought....

Hubby and I are currently doing a study through Romans which got a bit sidetracked when I went to Ohio...we haven't made it past Chapter One...lots of material to cover...we've been studying Romans for weeks!

I consider the are many doubtful disputes...doctrinal disputes, interprative disputes and such...tons of them daily on these boards....

I guess the defining line would be whether or not something is a discussion which is beneficial and edifying...or a dispute which is not beneficial nor edifying.....and what are the differences between the two?

And of course...refuting false doctrine/teaching....orthodoxy vs unorthodoxy and such....another ingredient to the mix....

The key word is "doubtful" in the first verse...but I'm wondering what our "idol meats" are these days. We look back on it wondering why people got all hepped up over idol meats, but for some it was dead serious stuff...we can defend the essential teachings; what are the things we should extend grace over?

 

[JustAsIam77]

Forgive me MrJim,

I'm not clear about your post. Would you be so kind as to be more specific about what you're speaking of?

Thanks Bro

Update, I've reread your post and understand your question now. If I understand the passage Paul is speaking of, we are free to eat & drink of anything God has provided because the old Mosaic law has been made obsolete by the new covenant of Christ, however, we must be careful, even in our new freedom, to not be a stumbling block to others, by our example.

 

[Cris413]

Are you meaning such as in relation to Paul saying:

1Co 6:12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

As in perhaps...keeping the Sabbath on Saturday....imparting grace to those who don't...or visa versa?

Or perhaps....the doctrine that one can lose their salvation as opposed to those who believe we are sealed with a guarantee by the Holy Spirit?

Those two issues may still be considered "idol meats" perhaps?

Yes...I'm a bit confused now too where your thoughts are going with the thread.

 

[MrJim]

Forgive me MrJim,

I'm not clear about your post. Would you be so kind as to be more specific about what you're speaking of?

Thanks Bro

Update, I've reread your post and understand your question now. If I understand the passage Paul is speaking of, we are free to eat & drink of anything God has provided because the old Mosaic law has been made obsolete by the new covenant of Christ, however, we must be careful, even in our new freedom, to not be a stumbling block to others, by our example.

What do you think would be a modern example of being a stumbling block in the church today?

 

[Secundulus]

The key word is "doubtful" in the first verse...but I'm wondering what our "idol meats" are these days. We look back on it wondering why people got all hepped up over idol meats, but for some it was dead serious stuff...we can defend the essential teachings; what are the things we should extend grace over?

Go to the Theology Forum and read any number of threads on the Sabbath, or on any number of other topics. This will provide the answer.

 

[Secundulus]

Thanks for posting this MrJim....it's ummm....good food for thought....

Hubby and I are currently doing a study through Romans which got a bit sidetracked when I went to Ohio...we haven't made it past Chapter One...lots of material to cover...we've been studying Romans for weeks!

I consider the are many doubtful disputes...doctrinal disputes, interprative disputes and such...tons of them daily on these boards....

I guess the defining line would be whether or not something is a discussion which is beneficial and edifying...or a dispute which is not beneficial nor edifying.....and what are the differences between the two?

And of course...refuting false doctrine/teaching....orthodoxy vs unorthodoxy and such....another ingredient to the mix....

I think that if you boil Paul down to his basic message, it is: If what you do is for Christ then it is ok.

Of course, this can be taken too far if one says that if his sin is for Christ then it is not sin.

 

[JustAsIam77]

What do you think would be a modern example of being a stumbling block in the church today?

Wow, that's a tough one. As we're all affected by the carnal desires of the flesh because of mans inherent fallen nature, (thanks to events in the Garden).

My thought is once we have received salvation thru the power of the HS to convict & enable us to have faith in Christ as our Saviour, nothing can become a stumbling block.

I know I'm not answering your question... I would think unsaved souls would be put off as new seekers to know what Christ has done for them if they were to observe so called Christians living a lifestyle of wordly secular decadence.

But something I don't like to bring to this particular forum is my belief that the HS will convict and bring in all those God has predestined to be saved.

You asked.

 

[Cris413]

I think that if you boil Paul down to his basic message, it is: If what you do is for Christ then it is ok.

Of course, this can be taken too far if one says that if his sin is for Christ then it is not sin.

Is there a difference in the church's actions to cause the fellowship to stumble...and individual's who may cause others to stumble...

For example....I know of many pastors who don't drink...not because drinking is a sin per se' ...but because if someone saw them drinking...it may cause them to stumble...and they consider pastors should be above reproach...setting the example for those they shepard and such.

I know a pastor who had a glass of champagne at a wedding reception....and a guy....who was a hard drinker was all...now THAT's MY kinda pastor! Where do I sign up!....

And couples who have dry receptions...not because they don't have a drink now and then....but they didn't want to encourage drunkeness or cause others to stumble.

 

[Secundulus]

Is there a difference in the church's actions to cause the fellowship to stumble...and individual's who may cause others to stumble...

I think Paul would say that we should not use our freedom to cause scandal with other Christians.

For example. I do not believe there is anything wrong with drinking alcohol. We can have a cookout with my Church with a cooler full of beer and there is no problem. However, if I were to go to a Baptist cookout I should abstain from beer out of respect for their convictions. It would be wrong, and even sin, if I were to insist on having a beer at their function simply because I am free to do so.

Here is the really funny thing that I have gathered from talking to people around this forum. I might look at them as the weaker brother for restricting themself when I believe we have the freedom to drink a beer. At the same time, they will look at me as the weaker brother for drinking that beer.

As long as we respect each others convictions when we are in the other's house there is no problem. We can both view the other as the weak one and continue to get along just fine. LOL

I think that Paul wrote a pretty good principle for co-existence here. He must have had some help from the Holy Spirit in his writing.

 

[JustAsIam77]

I think Paul would say that we should not use our freedom to cause scandal with other Christians.

For example. I do not believe there is anything wrong with drinking alcohol. We can have a cookout with my Church with a cooler full of beer and there is no problem. However, if I were to go to a Baptist cookout I should abstain from beer out of respect for their convictions. It would be wrong, and even sin, if I were to insist on having a beer at their function simply because I am free to do so.

Here is the really funny thing that I have gathered from talking to people around this forum. I might look at them as the weaker brother for restricting themself when I believe we have the freedom to drink a beer. At the same time, they will look at me as the weaker brother for drinking that beer.

As long as we respect each others convictions when we are in the other's house there is no problem. We can both view the other as the weak one and continue to get along just fine. LOL

I think that Paul wrote a pretty good principle for co-existence here. He must have had some help from the Holy Spirit in his writing.

I doubt drinking a beer and enjoying baby back ribs slathered in BBQ sauce makes one unworthy of Christs kingdom.

IMHO what took place at Calvary has us covered. BIG TIME!

In Christ

 

[Cris413]

Here is the really funny thing that I have gathered from talking to people around this forum. I might look at them as the weaker brother for restricting themself when I believe we have the freedom to drink a beer. At the same time, they will look at me as the weaker brother for drinking that beer.

I'm not aware of the convo of course....but is there any chance some of it could have been just an assumption they "restricted" themselves...

I mean...I don't drink (anymore) not because I restrict myself...but I've simply lost all desire to drink...I just don't enjoy it any longer...I don't like the way it makes me feel.

And weirdly....when I decline a drink...especially with people I used to drink with...they think I'm just denying myself something because of my faith...and that really has nothing to do with it.

Or they think...I'm all pious now because I no longer drink...or that I have a problem with them drinking....when I simply just have no desire to have a drink....

I have an almost full bottle of Belvedere in my freezer...been there 3 years now...I keep forgetting it's in there... There was a time...that wouldn't have lasted 3 days....

As long as we respect each others convictions when we are in the other's house there is no problem. We can both view the other as the weak one and continue to get along just fine. LOL

And I certainly wouldn't look at anyone who does drink as weaker...but simply saying I don't drink...might lead someone who does drink to consider I think those who do are weaker...or not as spiritual or something....

I think that Paul wrote a pretty good principle for co-existence here. He must have had some help from the Holy Spirit in his writing.

I think you are absolutely right!....


I felt really bad years ago...I was coming out of a convenient store with a pack of cigs...and as I was opening them....up walks this guy from my church...and he saw the cigs in my hand...and he says...YOU smoke???

I was so embarrassed....and I said...yeah...I smoke...and he pulls a pack from his pocket and says...thank God...I thought I was the only one...it's so nice to know someone else from church smokes.

I still don't know how I should feel about that...but it bothered me...I felt like my actions were maybe a stumbling block to him....or encouraging him that it was OK to smoke....on the other hand...I didn't want him to feel bad about smoking either......or that I would have judged him for smoking.

Same thing with my tat....I don't go out of my way to hide my tat...but I don't go out of my way to show it off either.

One time at church....this was years ago as well....I was standing outside talking with some people...and some guy I'd never met...(apparently my tat was peaking out just a bit)...and this guy tapped me shoulder...where the tat is....and he just shook his finger at me like....no no no...bad Christian girl......and walked away. I was dumbfounded.

I'm kinda thinking...his attitude of judgment would be more of a stumbling block for others than my ink could ever be.

 

[Cris413]

I doubt drinking a beer and enjoying baby back ribs slathered in BBQ sauce makes one unworthy of Christs kingdom.

IMHO what took place at Calvary has us covered. BIG TIME!

In Christ

sounds like most TX backyards on Saturday....

 

[JustAsIam77]

sounds like most TX backyards on Saturday....

Please tell me Texans use charcoal not gas for grillin.

Gas grillin is a sin according to Mosaic Law.

 

[Cris413]

Please tell me Texans use charcoal not gas for grillin.

Gas grillin is a sin according to Mosaic Law.

charcoal...and pecan wood.......that's what hubby uses in his smoker anyway...

 

[JustAsIam77]

charcoal...and pecan wood.......that's what hubby uses in his smoker anyway...

I use hickory. It's all good. Especially when family gets to dig in the end result.

I'll try pecan wood next... thanks for thr tip.

 

[MrJim]

Abstinence from liquor and tobacco would be examples of self-denying liberties; that's the essence of Rom 14; less about the weaker brother, more on the stronger brother's actions to help the weaker.

Now to some degree every one is weaker to some and stronger to others; how do we know in a given situation if we are being the weaker or stronger brother?

(...and waiting for my invite to Southern BBQ )

 

[NorrinRadd]

Alcohol... tobacco... tatoos... whether it's right or wrong to celebrate Xmas... what day we should gather to worship... whether it's mandatory to gather on any particular schedule...

 

[Cris413]

I use hickory. It's all good. Especially when family gets to dig in the end result.

I'll try pecan wood next... thanks for thr tip.

The choice prolly has a lot to do with the big honkin' pecan tree in our backyard than anything else...but hubby really likes the pecan smoke flavor...and his smoked pork loin....oh my....

Yes...do try it!