Romans 14

[versastyle]

In the context of this part of the forum, I think this chapter is very important. (Thanks Tim). Does everyone agree that this passage is stating, when it comes to the questions of our historical origins, that what we believe about it is personal and it should not be used as a weapon of ministry or defense of the cross and that these types of opinions are not rooted in sound doctrine.

Specifically:

[font=verdana,arial,helvetica][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]14:1 [/font][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]Do not put on one side him who is feeble in faith, and do not put him in doubt by your reasonings.[/font][/font]
[font=verdana,arial,helvetica][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]14:2 [/font][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]One man has faith to take all things as food: another who is feeble in faith takes only green food.[/font][/font]
[font=verdana,arial,helvetica][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]14:3 [/font][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]Let not him who takes food have a low opinion of him who does not: and let not him who does not take food be a judge of him who does; for he has God's approval.[/font][/font]
[font=verdana,arial,helvetica][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]14:4 [/font][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]Who are you to make yourself a judge of another man's servant? it is to his master that he is responsible for good or bad. Yes, his place will be safe, because the Lord is able to keep him from falling.[/font][/font]
[font=verdana,arial,helvetica][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]14:5 [/font][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]This man puts one day before another: to that man they are the same. Let every man be certain in his mind.[/font][/font]
[font=verdana,arial,helvetica][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]14:6 [/font][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]He who keeps the day, keeps it to the Lord; and he who takes food, takes it as to the Lord, for he gives praise to God; and he who does not take food, to the Lord he takes it not, and gives praise to God.[/font][/font]
[font=verdana,arial,helvetica][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]14:7 [/font][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]For every man's life and every man's death has a relation to others as well as to himself.[/font][/font]
[font=verdana,arial,helvetica][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]14:8 [/font][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]As long as we have life we are living to the Lord; or if we give up our life it is to the Lord; so if we are living, or if our life comes to an end, we are the Lord's.[/font][/font]
[font=verdana,arial,helvetica][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]14:9 [/font][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]And for this purpose Christ went into death and came back again, that he might be the Lord of the dead and of the living.[/font][/font]
[font=verdana,arial,helvetica][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]14:10 [/font][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]But you, why do you make yourself your brother's judge? or again, why have you no respect for your brother? because we will all have to take our place before God as our judge.[/font][/font]
[font=verdana,arial,helvetica][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]14:11 [/font][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]For it is said in the holy Writings, By my life, says the Lord, to me every knee will be bent, and every tongue will give worship to God.[/font][/font]
[font=verdana,arial,helvetica][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]14:12 [/font][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]So every one of us will have to give an account of himself to God.[/font][/font]
[font=verdana,arial,helvetica][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]14:13 [/font][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]Then let us not be judges of one another any longer: but keep this in mind, that no man is to make it hard for his brother, or give him cause for doubting.[/font][/font]
[font=verdana,arial,helvetica][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]14:14 [/font][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]I am conscious of this, and am certain in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself; but for the man in whose opinion it is unclean, for him it is unclean.[/font][/font]
[font=verdana,arial,helvetica][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]14:15 [/font][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]And if because of food your brother is troubled, then you are no longer going on in the way of love. Do not let your food be destruction to him for whom Christ went into death.[/font][/font]
[font=verdana,arial,helvetica][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]14:16 [/font][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]Let it not be possible for men to say evil about your good:[/font][/font]
[font=verdana,arial,helvetica][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]14:17 [/font][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]For the kingdom of God is not food and drink, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.[/font][/font]
[font=verdana,arial,helvetica][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]14:18 [/font][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]And he who in these things is Christ's servant, is pleasing to God and has the approval of men.[/font][/font]
[font=verdana,arial,helvetica][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]14:19 [/font][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]So then, let us go after the things which make peace, and the things by which we may be a help to one another.[/font][/font]
[font=verdana,arial,helvetica][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]14:20 [/font][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]Do not let the work of God come to nothing on account of food. All things are certainly clean; but it is evil for that man who by taking food makes it hard for another.[/font][/font]
[font=verdana,arial,helvetica][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]14:21 [/font][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]It is better not to take meat or wine or to do anything which might be a cause of trouble to your brother.[/font][/font]
[font=verdana,arial,helvetica][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]14:22 [/font][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]The faith which you have, have it to yourself before God. Happy is the man who is not judged by that to which he gives approval.[/font][/font]
[font=verdana,arial,helvetica][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]14:23 [/font][font=verdana,arial,helvetica]But he who is in doubt is judged if he takes food, because he does it not in faith; and whatever is not of faith is sin.[/font][/font]

 

[mhess13]

So what are you saying, doctine isn't important? That is not what this chapter is talking about. It is talking about Christian liberty/legalism. For instance the bible doesn't specifically SAY that I shouldn't watch a rated R movie. I have to rely on the Holy Spirit and common sense to guide me and allow others to do the same. I watch some rated R movies, many brothers don't. Fine. HOWEVER, the Bible does say that God created all in 6 days, he gave us geneologies to trace approx. how many years ago that was, the Bible says Adam was real AND that he was created mature, the the earth was created mature, the Bible DOES say that there was a worldwide flood that wiped out everything but those on the ark, etc.

YOU DON'T have the liberty to just decide which parts of the written word that you will believe IMHO

 

[Vance]

But your entire statement only works if your interpretation is correct. That is called begging the question.

Here is a statement on this subject by Dr. Hugh Ross (a real Phd in Astrophysics), a Christian Creationist (anti-evolution, but "old earth"), and is something all Christians interested in this topic should read. It is actually an introduction to a book called "A New Look at an Old Earth". I don't agree with everything Hugh Ross believes, or everything included in the book, but what Ross writes here is very good. I added a couple of small notes in brackets which I think clarifies what he is saying.

"James, the brother of Jesus, in addressing the council at Jerusalem declared, "It is my judgement, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God (Acts 15:19)." The apostle Paul in his letter to the Romans said, "Make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way (Romans 14:13)." Don Stoner challenges us in the following pages to remove a great impediment to the furtherance of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Instead of focusing on the now overwhelming evidence for the God of the Bible and on the complete accuracy of His Word [Ross believes that the scientific evidence of an old universe actually provides strong support for God's Creation], many within Christendom would have us discount this potent new evidence, all for the sake of clinging to the rather peripheral (to the Gospel) dogma of a recently-created universe.

This digression [into YEC'ism] has effectively inoculated a large segment of secular society against taking seriously the call to faith in Christ. It also has divided the Christian community into hostile camps that focus more energy on attacking each other than on reaching nonbelievers. Worse yet, the nation's courts have come to perceive age as the central issue for the creation/evolution debate. Thus, a pretext has been provided - the lack of credibility for a thousands-of-years-old universe - for removing the Bible and the concept of creation from public education.

As Mr. Stoner emphasizes, science is man's attempt to interpret the facts of nature, while theology is man's attempt to interpret the words of the Bible. God created the universe and also is responsible for the words of the Bible. Since He is incapable of lying or deceit, there can be no contradiction between the words of the Bible and the facts of nature. Any conflict between science and theology must be attributable to human misinterpretation. Such conflicts should be welcomed, not feared or battled, for they point the way to further research and study that could resolve the apparent discrepancies.

Historically such resolutions have not only born the fruit of bringing warring parties to peace and fellowship but also provided new tools for winning souls for Christ. It is in this spirit that this book is written, and it is in this spirit that I hope this book will be read."

 

[mhess13]

yeah, yeah, I've seen that cut and paste job 1,009,457,641,001,237 times before already

 

[Vance]

yeah, yeah, I've seen that cut and paste job 1,009,457,641,001,237 times before already

Too bad it hasn't sunk in yet, then.

 

[versastyle]

So what are you saying, doctine isn't important?

No. I am saying YECism and TE are not important.

I have to rely on the Holy Spirit and common sense to guide me and allow others to do the same.

So does the Holy Spirit guide you to believe a literal 6 day creation and me to not?

I watch some rated R movies, many brothers don't. Fine. HOWEVER, the Bible does say that God created all in 6 days, he gave us geneologies to trace approx. how many years ago that was, the Bible says Adam was real AND that he was created mature, the the earth was created mature, the Bible DOES say that there was a worldwide flood that wiped out everything but those on the ark, etc.

Is this paragraph you've posted rooted in guidance from the Holy Spirit?

YOU DON'T have the liberty to just decide which parts of the written word that you will believe IMHO

No. I do however have the ability to use discernment and to recognize those who might be weak in their faith. What you just posted illustrates the point Paul is making. You may cause someone to doubt their faith. Do you feel that is the purpose of the Holy Spirit?

 

[California Tim]

I believe we find in the Bible all we "NEED" to know concerning God's plan for salvation through Christ, but not necessarily all we "WANT" to know. On matters of eternal consequence: namely salvation and punishment, we should present a united front to the lost, while on issues of lesser importance we should discuss, instruct and exhort in a genuine spirit of love and respect that sets us apart from the world even when in disagreement.

 

[versastyle]

I believe we find in the Bible all we "NEED" to know concerning God's plan for salvation through Christ, but not necessarily all we "WANT" to know. On matters of eternal consequence: namely salvation and punishment, we should present a united front to the lost, while on issues of lesser importance we should discuss, instruct and exhort in a genuine spirit of love and respect that sets us apart from the world even when in disagreement.

I agree...

I would add, when talking to a non-Christian, that we acknowledge our beliefs regarding our origins are not important, and it is not required to believe one thing or the other.

 

[Vance]

Tim, that is what I have been saying all along. But it is the YEC ministries that are NOT doing that. They are on a full-court press to convince everyone not that YEC'ism should be considered, but that it is the only possible proper approach to origins. And, they go so far as to say that if you don't accept YEC'ism, you don't really accept the Bible and might as well toss the whole thing out. Really, I have even heard YEC's on this very forum say that very thing.

That is far from the sensible approach you seem to espouse. It would be wonderful if more YEC's felt as you do.

 

[YahwehLove]

My opinion its that this applies to non-critical teachings/beliefs (meats, etc) and should not be used as an excuse to allow false doctrine to be permitted.

In the context of this part of the forum, I think this chapter is very important. (Thanks Tim). Does everyone agree that this passage is stating, when it comes to the questions of our historical origins, that what we believe about it is personal and it should not be used as a weapon of ministry or defense of the cross and that these types of opinions are not rooted in sound doctrine.
[font=verdana,arial,helvetica][font=verdana,arial,helvetica].[/font][/font]

 

[versastyle]

My opinion its that this applies to non-critical teachings/beliefs (meats, etc) and should not be used as an excuse to allow false doctrine to be permitted.

IMO, sound doctrine does not have to include the historical accuracy of every single verse.

 

[YahwehLove]

IMO, sound doctrine does not have to include the historical accuracy of every single verse.

every single verse?
Were talking about one chapter of the book here. Gen. 1.

And I wonder about people who will read and study 1000 books or more in their lifetime, then not put an effort to study the bible that intently.

you dont have to know every single verse.
But you cant use Romans 14, which is NOT about critical doctrine, to say that its ok for anyone to believe anything.
Sorry, it doesnt work that way.

 

[versastyle]

every single verse?
Were talking about one chapter of the book here. Gen. 1.

And I wonder about people who will read and study 1000 books or more in their lifetime, then not put an effort to study the bible that intently.

you dont have to know every single verse.
But you cant use Romans 14, which is NOT about critical doctrine, to say that its ok for anyone to believe anything.
Sorry, it doesnt work that way.

I agree.

So what was the problem?

 

[YahwehLove]

I agree.

So what was the problem?

No problem at all.
As long as its understood that Genesis 1 may very well be critical doctrine.
If it was 6 days and Genesis one is a type of line in the sand to see who would believe and who would not, then those who dont, well, you know

Maybe its about faith.
Maybe thats the point.
God is pretty big on this faith thing, you know

 

[versastyle]

No problem at all.
As long as its understood that Genesis 1 may very well be critical doctrine.
If it was 6 days and Genesis one is a type of line in the sand to see who would believe and who would not, then those who dont, well, you know

I know what?

Maybe its about faith.
Maybe thats the point.
God is pretty big on this faith thing, you know

No freakin way!

 

[YahwehLove]

I know what?


No freakin way!

youre choice.

Funny tho that i keep hearing how christians are pushing people away from Christ, making them fall away over YEC.
And there you have a ''falling away'' in 2 Thess.
Is it becuase so many decided they had to give up Christ because they couldnt jsut have faith that God did it in 6 days like His work clearly states?

 

[versastyle]

I think its clear you think you read scripture better then me...since you think its so clear and all....

 

[YahwehLove]

I think its clear you think you read scripture better then me...since you think its so clear and all....

Im sorry, do you wnat a written apology from me becuase I dont feel its all that confusing?
Im sorry.
there you go.
But that doesnt change the fact that with prayer and bible study that it does indeed become quite clear.

 

[versastyle]

But that doesnt change the fact that with prayer and bible study that it does indeed become quite clear.

God must love you more.

 

[YahwehLove]

God must love you more.

Come on brother. you know thats not what is being said here.
For the man who just doesnt know any better, he can get away with a lot more.
But for those who use things like Romans 14 to not try to understand, thats another story.

I dont feel worthy of Gods love, this has nothing to do with that.
But I think all this compromise with things like common decent is just going too far. In my opinion.