Romans 12:2

[eldermike]

Romans 12:2 Do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may discern what is good, pleasing, and perfect will of God. (HCSB)

1 Peter 1:14 As obediant children do not be conformed to the desires of your former Ignorance. (HCSB)

How do you see it personally?
How do you see it corporately?


Personal question:
How conformed to the world are you?
(This is not a salvation issue, let's don't go there)

Corporate question:
The church has become program/seeker driven.
Are we in danger of being transformed by the world not trusting the words of God but rather our programs?

 

[MrJim]

World conformity is relative~I'm a regular at a mennonite forum where most folks dress very plain and many don't have televisions and compared to them I am more conformed to the world but then some of them know Amish folks and so compared to the Amish folks the plain mennonites are more conformed to the world...now myself compared to my coworkers I am less conformed~I can't carry any sort of conversation regarding television shows 'cause I don't watch network tv (though I did hook up the rabbit ears to catch some Olympics ); then our children are homeschooled so there's that angle of things. But then I still drive a car and keep up with the news and have a decent computer, so I do have lots of things in common with the world...so I guess I don't know how to answer; I'll ponder some more...

 

[eldermike]

World conformity is relative~I'm a regular at a mennonite forum where most folks dress very plain and many don't have televisions and compared to them I am more conformed to the world but then some of them know Amish folks and so compared to the Amish folks the plain mennonites are more conformed to the world...now myself compared to my coworkers I am less conformed~I can't carry any sort of conversation regarding television shows 'cause I don't watch network tv (though I did hook up the rabbit ears to catch some Olympics ); then our children are homeschooled so there's that angle of things. But then I still drive a car and keep up with the news and have a decent computer, so I do have lots of things in common with the world...so I guess I don't know how to answer; I'll ponder some more...

I began to work on this question after hearing a sermon on these passages.

In the ways you describe conformity I suppose we are all conformed. But I read the passages to be about a Spirtual condition, one thats formed in our minds by the world and it's trappings or the word of God. When I think on it this way I am doing a bit better personally, but it causes questions in my mind about how we approach a pratical teaching. how to be in the world but not of the world, how to exist as an alien, so to speak.

There are folks that have taken this to extreems IMHO.

It's all talk to me until we find a pratical way to teach spirtual matters.

We are called to go and tell, in the world. So we can't hide out from the world.

I just thought it was intresting to ponder.

 

[MrJim]

Want to really take it to another level~~consider nationalism...conformity historically has one tribe or people or nation created as a defendable body/culture. Look at the church global beyond political boundaries; not in some queasy ecumenical "world-hug" sorta way, but in identifying one's self to a church without walls and borders of stone or politics; the church as the Body of Christ redeemed...not conformed to the point where one's own worldly citizenship meaning little more than dung. The Apostle Paul showed some of this:

Phil 3:4 –Phil 3:8 KJV
Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

We as Americans could create a litany similar to St Paul's (me especially, since as a Missourian and former Marine could take some extra special pride in the confidences of the flesh )~~everyone has something in their blood or heritage than can give cause to boast...yet this nonconformity we're called to~this dying to self, this having "no continuing city", causes us to evaluate what we are indeed conformed to...is our conformity as to disciples of Christ or as citizens of America (or Canada, England, Nigeria, Thailand, etc)?

Just some thoughts from teachings I've learned from some of those plain mennonite folks

 

[mlqurgw]

I am absolutely convinced that the Scriptures do not deal with physical natural things but spiritual truth. Religion is always about things, do this and don't do that. Being transformed by the renewing of your mind is to lean more and rest more on Christ. It is contrasting the natural religious thoughts we have with the spiritual truth that Christ is all we need. Religion says do, keep away from some things and do others. It is about appeasing your conscience and making yourself feel better by doing. It is about earning God's blessing by living right. It is about self control of your thoughts and actions. Truth is about Christ and being complete in Him. We renew our minds when we trust His finished work as enough. We need not go about doing in order to gain peace but because we already have peace. In Him we are accepted, beloved, blessed, justified, sanctified, adpoted, holy, righteous, faithful, pure, spotless and loved. What more do we need? Being complete in Him means we are a finished work as masterpieces of God. It means that we lack nothing. We have been raised together with Him and right now sit together with Him in heavenly palces. Eph. 2:6. Being conformed to the world is to think like the world in our thoughts of God and Christ.

 

[eldermike]

Want to really take it to another level~~consider nationalism...conformity historically has one tribe or people or nation created as a defendable body/culture. Look at the church global beyond political boundaries; not in some queasy ecumenical "world-hug" sorta way, but in identifying one's self to a church without walls and borders of stone or politics; the church as the Body of Christ redeemed...not conformed to the point where one's own worldly citizenship meaning little more than dung. The Apostle Paul showed some of this:

Phil 3:4 –Phil 3:8 KJV
Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

We as Americans could create a litany similar to St Paul's (me especially, since as a Missourian and former Marine could take some extra special pride in the confidences of the flesh )~~everyone has something in their blood or heritage than can give cause to boast...yet this nonconformity we're called to~this dying to self, this having "no continuing city", causes us to evaluate what we are indeed conformed to...is our conformity as to disciples of Christ or as citizens of America (or Canada, England, Nigeria, Thailand, etc)?

Just some thoughts from teachings I've learned from some of those plain mennonite folks

Great post!

 

[eldermike]

I am absolutely convinced that the Scriptures do not deal with physical natural things but spiritual truth. Religion is always about things, do this and don't do that. Being transformed by the renewing of your mind is to lean more and rest more on Christ. It is contrasting the natural religious thoughts we have with the spiritual truth that Christ is all we need. Religion says do, keep away from some things and do others. It is about appeasing your conscience and making yourself feel better by doing. It is about earning God's blessing by living right. It is about self control of your thoughts and actions. Truth is about Christ and being complete in Him. We renew our minds when we trust His finished work as enough. We need not go about doing in order to gain peace but because we already have peace. In Him we are accepted, beloved, blessed, justified, sanctified, adpoted, holy, righteous, faithful, pure, spotless and loved. What more do we need? Being complete in Him means we are a finished work as masterpieces of God. It means that we lack nothing. We have been raised together with Him and right now sit together with Him in heavenly palces. Eph. 2:6. Being conformed to the world is to think like the world in our thoughts of God and Christ.

Great Post!

It seems that all this trying to do something gets in the way of being drawn to Him.
In fact God is not drawing us to a purpose, he's actually drawing us to Him. When purpose takes place it's His, not ours. It's His life, not ours.

These passages have caused me to go back and look at ideas like the purpose driven life. Hmmmmmm, that's another subject.

 

[arunma]

I am absolutely convinced that the Scriptures do not deal with physical natural things but spiritual truth. Religion is always about things, do this and don't do that. Being transformed by the renewing of your mind is to lean more and rest more on Christ. It is contrasting the natural religious thoughts we have with the spiritual truth that Christ is all we need. Religion says do, keep away from some things and do others. It is about appeasing your conscience and making yourself feel better by doing. It is about earning God's blessing by living right. It is about self control of your thoughts and actions. Truth is about Christ and being complete in Him. We renew our minds when we trust His finished work as enough. We need not go about doing in order to gain peace but because we already have peace. In Him we are accepted, beloved, blessed, justified, sanctified, adpoted, holy, righteous, faithful, pure, spotless and loved. What more do we need? Being complete in Him means we are a finished work as masterpieces of God. It means that we lack nothing. We have been raised together with Him and right now sit together with Him in heavenly palces. Eph. 2:6. Being conformed to the world is to think like the world in our thoughts of God and Christ.

Wow...the glories of the cross of Christ are truly astonishing. Thank you for writing down these observations.

 

[MrJim]

Religion is always about things, do this and don't do that.

There is plenty of "do this/don't do that" in the NT, straight out of the mouth of Jesus and the apostles.

"Religion" is not an evil word:

Jas 1:26 –Jas 1:27 KJV
If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man’s religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

The "pure religion" spoken here sounds like a lot of actions, no doubt as believers; yet actions nonetheless. In fact the NT sounds like it's as much about action as it is being, and by that action defining ourselves in that nonconformity to the world, a nonconformity that can be seen and lived in that Body of Christ's~~~just sayin', (not wanting this thread to derail into yet another calvinist/arminian dogfight)..

 

[PrincetonGuy]

I am absolutely convinced that the Scriptures do not deal with physical natural things but spiritual truth. Religion is always about things, do this and don't do that. Being transformed by the renewing of your mind is to lean more and rest more on Christ. It is contrasting the natural religious thoughts we have with the spiritual truth that Christ is all we need. Religion says do, keep away from some things and do others. It is about appeasing your conscience and making yourself feel better by doing. It is about earning God's blessing by living right. It is about self control of your thoughts and actions. Truth is about Christ and being complete in Him. We renew our minds when we trust His finished work as enough. We need not go about doing in order to gain peace but because we already have peace. In Him we are accepted, beloved, blessed, justified, sanctified, adpoted, holy, righteous, faithful, pure, spotless and loved. What more do we need? Being complete in Him means we are a finished work as masterpieces of God. It means that we lack nothing. We have been raised together with Him and right now sit together with Him in heavenly palces. Eph. 2:6. Being conformed to the world is to think like the world in our thoughts of God and Christ.

There is plenty of "do this/don't do that" in the NT, straight out of the mouth of Jesus and the apostles.

"Religion" is not an evil word:

Jas 1:26 –Jas 1:27 KJV
If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man’s religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

The "pure religion" spoken here sounds like a lot of actions, no doubt as believers; yet actions nonetheless. In fact the NT sounds like it's as much about action as it is being, and by that action defining ourselves in that nonconformity to the world, a nonconformity that can be seen and lived in that Body of Christ's~~~just sayin', (not wanting this thread to derail into yet another calvinist/arminian dogfight)..

MrJim certainly has it right here. Being a Christian is actively serving Christ and others—willfully and deliberately dying to ourselves while willfully and deliberately taking up the cross of Christ. God is no fool, and He sees each and every Christian for what he is—whether that be a sanctified, holy, righteous, faithful, pure, and spotless man; or whether that be halfhearted Christian with half of his heart and life conformed to this world and the other half of his heart and life plagued by guilt and shame. Romans 12:2 is found at the beginning of three chapters devoted to practical Christian living, and Paul wrote those three chapters because he saw in his fellow Christian believers the same thing that God saw—a need for those Christians to practice their faith so that they might be sanctified, holy, righteous, faithful, pure, and spotless men.

1 John 3:7. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; (NASB, 1995)

Romans chapters 12-14 tell us what it means to be conformed to this world and what to do about it.

 

[eldermike]

Let's talk about local churches and church growth programs as it relates to conforming to something "new and improved" , or a new model, for the purpose of growing. Many community churches pop up and quickly become large churches. Is seeker friendly thinking conforming the church to the world? Or, are they doing it right?

 

[MrJim]

Let's talk about local churches and church growth programs as it relates to conforming to something "new and improved" , or a new model, for the purpose of growing. Many community churches pop up and quickly become large churches. Is seeker friendly thinking conforming the church to the world? Or, are they doing it right?

You hear about this all the time~some pastor and a dozen people start a new church and a few years later there are 1000+ members and it makes you wonder what's going on. Each one has its own story and would have to be evaluated on an individual basis. Is seeker-friendly strategies world conforming? Seems like it can be that way; Jesus nor the Apostles were particularly seeker-friendly by any stretch of the imagination, yet they did seek and save the lost. Seems like the opposite of "seeker sensititive" churches can sometimes be evangelical cloisters where we surround ourselves with people like ourselves.

Growth is often the measure of success but then too nongrowth can be worn as a badge of some sort of martyred obedience ("we don't grow in numbers because the world is so dark and lost", "we grow in spirituality instead of members"). The entire "church membership" thing is something of the devil I think in that it's not of scriptural basis. One is a member of the church by blood of Christ, not because some clergy deemed you fit to be put upon some congregational rollcall list. Yet that list again is the measure of success in the world's eye, and unfortunately in much of the church's eye...

The measure of success (and by "success" I mean God-blessed obedience) in the church is by obedience to His word and calling on our lives as a church~not by a mass of flesh that has signed up to a particular creed/doctrinal statement, but by a mass of flesh that has God's stamp upon them out doing the will of God for that body.

Repeating again:

Jas 1:26 –Jas 1:27 KJV
If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man’s religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

And:

Mt 25:31 –Mt 25:46 NKJV
“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’
Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

This then is the essence of Christianity~not a mental assent to a list of doctrines, but the Holy Spirit's work in one's submitted existence, putting our entire life out there for Christ to use as He sees fit. Conformity to the world then becomes impossible as the Spirit moves Christ's Body to do the will of God. And that may very well get done in some aspect among the seeker-sensitive groups; I think though it would much more difficult, for in some respects those folks have already decided how the Body of Christ is supposed to act, and have become something of legalists in their own way..

 

[eldermike]

You hear about this all the time~some pastor and a dozen people start a new church and a few years later there are 1000+ members and it makes you wonder what's going on. Each one has its own story and would have to be evaluated on an individual basis. Is seeker-friendly strategies world conforming? Seems like it can be that way; Jesus nor the Apostles were particularly seeker-friendly by any stretch of the imagination, yet they did seek and save the lost. Seems like the opposite of "seeker sensititive" churches can sometimes be evangelical cloisters where we surround ourselves with people like ourselves.

Growth is often the measure of success but then too nongrowth can be worn as a badge of some sort of martyred obedience ("we don't grow in numbers because the world is so dark and lost", "we grow in spirituality instead of members"). The entire "church membership" thing is something of the devil I think in that it's not of scriptural basis. One is a member of the church by blood of Christ, not because some clergy deemed you fit to be put upon some congregational rollcall list. Yet that list again is the measure of success in the world's eye, and unfortunately in much of the church's eye...

The measure of success (and by "success" I mean God-blessed obedience) in the church is by obedience to His word and calling on our lives as a church~not by a mass of flesh that has signed up to a particular creed/doctrinal statement, but by a mass of flesh that has God's stamp upon them out doing the will of God for that body.

Repeating again:

Jas 1:26 –Jas 1:27 KJV
If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man’s religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

And:

Mt 25:31 –Mt 25:46 NKJV
“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’
Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

This then is the essence of Christianity~not a mental assent to a list of doctrines, but the Holy Spirit's work in one's submitted existence, putting our entire life out there for Christ to use as He sees fit. Conformity to the world then becomes impossible as the Spirit moves Christ's Body to do the will of God. And that may very well get done in some aspect among the seeker-sensitive groups; I think though it would much more difficult, for in some respects those folks have already decided how the Body of Christ is supposed to act, and have become something of legalists in their own way..

Another great post!

I have that same thinking process, is growth a measure of success? In acts we find that it is - "and their numbers were added to" but there is a caveat, they were teaching/proclaiming only the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Are the words of Jesus, Matthew, Mark, Luke, Paul, Peter, James and John sufficent today?

You bring up something intresting, Jesus seperates sheep from goats...
Perhaps sound teaching builds smaller churches but with more sheep!

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Let's talk about local churches and church growth programs as it relates to conforming to something "new and improved" , or a new model, for the purpose of growing. Many community churches pop up and quickly become large churches. Is seeker friendly thinking conforming the church to the world? Or, are they doing it right?

Again, I agree with MrJim, “Each one has its own story and would have to be evaluated on an individual basis.” Jesus was sensitive to the needs of the people around him, and I believe that the pastors of churches need to be sensitive to the needs of the people in their community. It is very important, however, for the pastors to distinguish between what the people really need and what the people just want, and the Holy Spirit helps the pastors to make this distinction when they listen to Him and yield to Him.

There are some pastors who specialize in making the members of their congregation feel good rather than be good and that is conformity to the world rather than to the will God. Such pastors, if they have a charismatic personality, often grow their newly formed churches into megachurches.