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Roman/Italians converted by the teachings of Apostle Paul

Discussion in 'Christian History' started by Points To Ponder, May 4, 2021 at 5:36 PM.

  1. Points To Ponder

    Points To Ponder The Scriptures are the foundation of my faith.

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    Is it possible that the converts to Christianity in Rome or other areas of Italy are the origins of the Waldensians? It would be interesting to know the linage of those early Italian Christians that did not follow the formation of the Catholic church and were the earliest Reformers. Any research done on this subject?
     
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  2. Basil the Great

    Basil the Great Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I for one have immense admiration for the Waldensians of old. However, I believe that any attempt to try and connect them to some sort of ancient group of Christians who were not part of the Catholic Church will fail. I know of no such connection.
     
  3. Points To Ponder

    Points To Ponder The Scriptures are the foundation of my faith.

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    I think there are only a few options. They were early Christians who never adopted the Roman Catholic doctrine or rejected it very early. By historical definition, everyone was initially Catholic (Universal Church) long before established doctrine. I'm not implying they were not part of the initial Universal Church but could have been the first schism or never adopted the formal doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church. It is possible that they adopted the Protestant type doctrine long before Martin Luther due to hearing of the gospel outside of the Catholic faith. They either left the Roman Catholic Church or never were a part of it. I'm not sure of the earliest dates of the established Waldensians and the beginning of the Roman Catholic Church doctrine that initiated the first reformers. I do know they were counter the Roman Catholic faith long before Martin Luther.
     
  4. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    There is no lineage of the Waldensians, nor any other group, to the early Church.
     
  5. Tolworth John

    Tolworth John Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What is known of the history of the Waldensians is that they are known after the name of there founder .
    They started in the 12th February and there are no known links to any earlier groups.

    This information is available from any history of Christianity.
     
  6. GreekOrthodox

    GreekOrthodox Psalti Chrysostom

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    There were a number of reforming groups prior to the Reformation. John Hus, John Wycliffe, and Peter Waldo. These were Catholics who rejected portions of Catholic theology. There were also pre-Reformation reformers that stayed within the Roman church.

    However, there are also heretical groups that were basically Gnostic in origin such as the Cathars, who taught that there were two deities, one good and one evil. They in fact equated God of the OT as Satan.
     
  7. Points To Ponder

    Points To Ponder The Scriptures are the foundation of my faith.

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    There must have been Christians who converted under the teachings of the Apostles who never supported or followed Catholic doctrine. I understand that Catholic doctrine is a little fuzzy in the early centuries. Constantine (I) appointed the first bishop of Rome when he moved the capital to Constantinople in 330 AD. Between the later part of the 1st century and the first bishop, you had Christians in Rome who became Christians from the teachings of the early Church Fathers. It's difficult to believe that from 100 AD to 330 AD the Church was united in doctrine given the direction Roman Catholic doctrine ultimately became. It would seem logical that some early Christians never adopted the teachings of the appointed bishops and had their own doctrine that survived. I do not believe that Peter was ever in Rome. I think it's a pure fabrication to lend credibility to the formation of the Catholic Church and Papacy. Even the most elementary Christian can understand what Jesus was saying in regard to Peter being the Rock vs. Jesus himself being the Rock.
     
  8. GreekOrthodox

    GreekOrthodox Psalti Chrysostom

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    One, it seems you are assuming that Roman Catholicism in its present form showed up with its papal tiara with Constantine. Ante-Nicean Christianity was more of a loose federation with major centers in Rome (as the capital of the empire), Alexandria and Antioch. However, there were bishops that were overseeing various urban centers or larger regions.

    [​IMG]
    Dark Blue - Christianity by 300AD (from Wikipedia)

    Sure you had plenty of groups that didnt follow these bishops: gnostics, Montanists, Marcionites, Arians, Sabellius, aka heretics. For the ante-Nicean church, the bishops were the ones that helped to define doctrine. Apostolic succession was being able to say, "I was taught and ordained by Steven of Anatolia, who was ordained by John of Antioch, who was ordained by Polycarp of Smyrna, who was taught and ordained by John the Apostle". If you couldnt trace back that path, then you probably werent a member of the recognized church.

    As for Peter, all the apostolic churches acknowledge that St. Peter was martyred in Rome. So that includes Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East and we don't follow the current Bishop of Rome.
     
  9. Points To Ponder

    Points To Ponder The Scriptures are the foundation of my faith.

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    As for Peter, all the apostolic churches acknowledge that St. Peter was martyred in Rome. So that includes Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East and we don't follow the current Bishop of Rome.[/QUOTE]

    Either the early Roman Catholic Church is lying or the Apostle Paul is lying. Romans 15:20. We know from Paul's own writing that he himself was in Rome. There is no place in scripture placing Peter in Rome. His own writing is in contradiction to the early Roman Catholic doctrine. I believe that the Roman Catholic Church created the story of Peter being in Rome and being the foundation of the Catholic Church and being the first Pope due to their misunderstanding of Matthew 16: 16-18. Jesus is the Rock, not Peter.
    This scripture is still falsely quoted to this day even though they actually know better. What better way in the early days of Roman Catholicism to establish control and doctrine than to make the claim that Saint Peter is the founder of the church.
     
  10. GreekOrthodox

    GreekOrthodox Psalti Chrysostom

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    Do you even know about the churches I mention?
     
  11. Points To Ponder

    Points To Ponder The Scriptures are the foundation of my faith.

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    Yes, I've limited knowledge of them from studies of the early church period. Regardless of what historical or church writings say it's still not in the scripture nor is it logical.
     
  12. GreekOrthodox

    GreekOrthodox Psalti Chrysostom

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    So in other words, John the apostle died, the world wide church was corrupted until Luther came along... got it.
     
  13. Points To Ponder

    Points To Ponder The Scriptures are the foundation of my faith.

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    What I believe is that it was Simon Magus who with his blend of counterfeit Christianity and pagan beliefs is the more likely first Pope. Justin Martyr goes into detail about Simon Magus's efforts in Rome during this period. He was so well connected with the Emperor and Roman government there was a statue of him in Rome. Simon Magus's mission was to create a counterfeit religion in Rome. We will really never know for sure but you still have to decide if you believe in Roman Catholic tradition or the Apostle Paul.
     
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