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Roman Catholics: Which Vulgate and Why?

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GratiaCorpusChristi

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They can, but it doesn't take away from my opinion. I'm with Pope Emeritus on this one, that the literal sense is overemphasized today, and that the Spiritual senses of Scripture need to be brought back into balance with the literal sense. Right now among scholars the Bible has become nothing more than a historical document; and that needs to change.

I'm not saying that the literal sense isn't important, but it isn't the only sense of Scripture. Balance must be found between the literal and spiritual senses. It seems that whenever there is an imbalance between textual criticism and Lectio Divina, the Church ceases to be theologically healthy.

I think that the balance is returning (thank God), thanks to some wonderful efforts of our magisterium as of late.

For Catholics the Vulgate should be THE BIBLE of the Church because it was THE BIBLE of the Church for 1200-1500 years. The Vulgate has been to Catholics what the LXX has been for the Orthodox. So when you read the great treatises of theology in the Middle Ages that have come out of the West, it is the Vulgate that has been the underlying Biblical Tradition that has inspired these incredible scholarly works.

Personally I think it is telling when you compare the works of the Church with the Vulgate as its official Bible, and the what I call "mutt" bibles in the modern period. You look at all the passion of the Medieval Church that created some of the greatest works of art and owe-inspiring cathedrals, inspired men to leave their countries to fight in a foreign land for their Christian brothers, to see their faith in every segment of their lives, men and women by the droves giving their entire lives to God as religious, priests, missionaries, etc.; and compare that with a Modern Church who sees their faith as something to do on Sunday morning if they don't have something better to do, and their values as something that shouldn't be defended, bland churches, bad music, low participation rate in the ministries, little desire to learn about Jesus, etc.

There is something to be said about a Bible translated by a Saint.

As a Lutheran, I can certainly appreciate the idea that Scripture must be a living document within the church. The Word of God is not confined to the literal text of the biblical autographs, and can find new expression in a multiplicity of ways.

However, I think I'm a lot more comfortable doing that through the development of holy tradition and through fresh expressions of the Word of God in the homily, pastoral counseling, and Christian poetry, hymnody, and literature than I am ascribing the continuing act of the Spirit to readings of Scripture in multiple senses. I'm no expert on what Luther would have thought on non-plain readings of Scripture when they're divorced from theological construction, but for my own part I really have no problem with purely subjective multiple senses of Scripture. However, to say that there is an objective anagogical or tropological sense to any given passage that is objectively consistent between persons and accessible by the whole church community is, in my humble opinion, a straight up misuse of Scripture, and a misunderstanding of Scripture's place within the grander nexus of resources at the church's disposal.
 
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Erose

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As a Lutheran, I can certainly appreciate the idea that Scripture must be a living document within the church. The Word of God is not confined to the literal text of the biblical autographs, and can find new expression in a multiplicity of ways.

However, I think I'm a lot more comfortable doing that through the development of holy tradition and through fresh expressions of the Word of God in the homily, pastoral counseling, and Christian poetry, hymnody, and literature than I am ascribing the continuing act of the Spirit to readings of Scripture in multiple senses. I'm no expert on what Luther would have thought on non-plain readings of Scripture when they're divorced from theological construction, but for my own part I really have no problem with purely subjective multiple senses of Scripture. However, to say that there is an objective anagogical or tropological sense to any given passage that is objectively consistent between persons and accessible by the whole church community is, in my humble opinion, a straight up misuse of Scripture, and a misunderstanding of Scripture's place within the grander nexus of resources at the church's disposal.
Ok. The major point that needs to be understood is that it is through Scripture that God speaks to us. That isn't just historical, but also must be Spirit led. The Bible cannot be ( and this also is a misunderstanding and misuse of Scripture) just a historical document. Textual and historical analysis is extremely important no doubt, but without the Spirit the Bible becomes nothing better than a ancient collection of documents. You cannot divorce the Spiritual Senses of Scripture from reading Scripture, if you do then all the Bible becomes is a old set of writings, nothing more than reading the Iliad or Homer or Shakespeare or Plato ect.

Lectio Divina must be used along side any literary study. Besides it is Lectio Divina that one develops a relationship with Jesus, and through literary study that teaches us about Jesus. Which would you consider more important?
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Ok. The major point that needs to be understood is that it is through Scripture that God speaks to us. That isn't just historical, but also must be Spirit led. The Bible cannot be ( and this also is a misunderstanding and misuse of Scripture) just a historical document. Textual and historical analysis is extremely important no doubt, but without the Spirit the Bible becomes nothing better than a ancient collection of documents. You cannot divorce the Spiritual Senses of Scripture from reading Scripture, if you do then all the Bible becomes is a old set of writings, nothing more than reading the Iliad or Homer or Shakespeare or Plato ect.

Lectio Divina must be used along side any literary study. Besides it is Lectio Divina that one develops a relationship with Jesus, and through literary study that teaches us about Jesus. Which would you consider more important?

I haven't said anything that could suggest that Scripture cannot be a living document through which the Spirit speaks afresh in new, non-historical, non-literal ways. In fact, I said precisely the opposite. I simply said that the supraliteral senses of Scripture are not objective data publicly accessible to the community of faith, but are rather subjective readings bound up with each person's reading of Scripture. Scripture can speak tropologically, anagogically, etc., but it speaks in those modalities in a whole variety of ways and differently to various individuals, not in objective ways.
 
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MoreCoffee

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To the best of my knowledge the Nova is the official Vatican text in use today. The Clementine is the basis for the Douay Rheims English Translation. The Douay Rheims is authorised for use in the liturgy in English speaking lands, so too is the Jerusalem Bible and the New American Bible and I think that the New Revised Standard Version is also sanctioned in some lands.

Since the mass is normally said in the vernacular and since Latin is not the vernacular in any land it is not used in the ordinary form of the mass, but it is used either in Latin or in Translation to the vernacular when the extraordinary form of the mass is used.
 
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WisdomTree

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Um not really, the Vulgate was not a translation of the LXX as many seem to think. St. Jerome were he was able translated from Hebrew manuscripts, the only exceptions are the New Testament (obviously), the Psalms and some of the Deuterocanonicals.

Isn't the Authorised Version (KJV) based on Jerome's Vulgate? That was what I was basing on, not LXX. I know LXX was not used for the Vulgate.
 
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Isn't the Authorised Version (KJV) based on Jerome's Vulgate? That was what I was basing on, not LXX. I know LXX was not used for the Vulgate.
No, the KJV is not based on the vulgate but the Douay Rheims was used in the preparation of the KJV. The KJV was explicitly denounced as a heresy infested translation in the 17th century. It's status among Catholics today is different, mostly we will use it in apologetics or on CF>GT for example, but it is far from the preferred bible translation for English speaking Catholics.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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To the best of my knowledge the Nova is the official Vatican text in use today. The Clementine is the basis for the Douay Rheims English Translation. The Douay Rheims is authorised for use in the liturgy in English speaking lands, so too is the Jerusalem Bible and the New American Bible and I think that the New Revised Standard Version is also sanctioned in some lands.

Since the mass is normally said in the vernacular and since Latin is not the vernacular in any land it is not used in the ordinary form of the mass, but it is used either in Latin or in Translation to the vernacular when the extraordinary form of the mass is used.

As I understand, vernacular masses are translations of a common Latin text that utilizes the Vulgate.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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No, the KJV is not based on the vulgate but the Douay Rheims was used in the preparation of the KJV. The KJV was explicitly denounced as a heresy infested translation in the 17th century. It's status among Catholics today is different, mostly we will use it in apologetics or on CF>GT for example, but it is far from the preferred bible translation for English speaking Catholics.

You may be thinking of the Geneva Bible, which was the primary previous English translation used in guiding the translation of the KJV.
 
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Erose

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I haven't said anything that could suggest that Scripture cannot be a living document through which the Spirit speaks afresh in new, non-historical, non-literal ways. In fact, I said precisely the opposite. I simply said that the supraliteral senses of Scripture are not objective data publicly accessible to the community of faith, but are rather subjective readings bound up with each person's reading of Scripture. Scripture can speak tropologically, anagogically, etc., but it speaks in those modalities in a whole variety of ways and differently to various individuals, not in objective ways.

Well it seemed like we were doing the speaking past each other thing and didn't won't to rock the boat.;) Anyway, I think that you hit the nail on the head for why Sacred Tradition is so important. It provides the parameters by which one should remain, when reading Scripture in the Spiritual sense.

If I remember correctly one of the arguments for Sola Scriptura was that Scripture was so straight forward, you really didn't need a Church to interpret it for you. One can do that for himself. Well we all know that isn't the case now.
 
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Erose

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Isn't the Authorised Version (KJV) based on Jerome's Vulgate? That was what I was basing on, not LXX. I know LXX was not used for the Vulgate.

No. KJV is actually based upon the Received Text for the NT and the Masoretic a text for the OT.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Well it seemed like we were doing the speaking past each other thing and didn't won't to rock the boat.;) Anyway, I think that you hit the nail on the head for why Sacred Tradition is so important. It provides the parameters by which one should remain, when reading Scripture in the Spiritual sense.

If I remember correctly one of the arguments for Sola Scriptura was that Scripture was so straight forward, you really didn't need a Church to interpret it for you. One can do that for himself. Well we all know that isn't the case now.

Yeah, I think that particular (and popular) understanding of Sola Scriptura is more the Reformed position, and appears within Lutheranism as one view among many.

My understanding of Luther's own view is that Scripture is not the sole source for all Christian belief and practice, but is rather the sole final court of appeal. He is specifically protesting one particular understanding (Jean Gerson's understanding, and it was his account that largely shaped the wording at Trent) of the relationship between Scripture and Holy Tradition in the Catholic Church: that Scripture and Tradition are two complementary but independent streams of revelation, which can both therefore serve as final courts of appeal.

When Luther says Scripture alone, therefore, he not only doesn't exclude tradition from consideration, he doesn't even exclude tradition as authoritative. He means that Scripture alone is the final recourse when evaluating the worth of later traditions.

This still brings up the question of private interpretation. But I think Luther would generally look not to private individual interpretation but to public interpretation of the international community of expert scholars. It's helpful to remember that almost every Renaissance humanist younger than Luther joined in the Reformation, and there was a fairly strong belief at the time that expert scholarly opinion was on the side of the Reformation. Luther's view is not private interpretation of individuals vs. the ecclesiasical interpretation of traditional authorities, but the public interpretation of the international scholarly community vs. (and I apologize for this terminology, but I think it helps get the point across) the private interpretations of the church's uneducated nobility. Scholar-popes like Benedict XVI weren't even on Luther's radar.

Of course, I think one reason why Luther rejects the whole idea of Tradition as a final court of appeal is because he firmly believed that the only genuinely ancient, first-century apostolic tradition we have access to is the New Testament itself. The New Testament itself is the apostolic deposit of tradition that is handed over to each generation. What he would have done with serious attempts to use scholarly methods to discover genuine apostolic traditions- like Dom Gregory Dix attempted to do with the liturgy- or with textual discoveries like the Didache, I don't know. And whether he ever really dealt with the antenicene fathers, I don't know, either; mostly I think the church fathers appealed to his day were the great fourth and fifth centuries eastern fathers of the apostolic councils and the three great western fathers. I'm inclined to give a bit more credence than some Lutherans to all of those academic attempts to understanding Scripture in light of early developments of tradition and to search for genuine first century Christian practices and beliefs. And, of course, I genuinely appreciate the whole history of the development of doctrine and the evolution of tradition, and so long as it isn't the final court of appeal, I think that process needs to be taken into account. I wouldn't have my degree in the history of theology if I didn't.
 
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Erose

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Yeah, I think that particular (and popular) understanding of Sola Scriptura is more the Reformed position, and appears within Lutheranism as one view among many.
I would like to note that this comment of mine wasn't directed exclusively to Lutheranism, if really at all. I will be honest that I don't know a great deal about Lutheran beliefs, primarily because there really isn't a lot of Lutherans in my neck of the woods. But my experiences primarily with Radical type Christians, is what my comments are based upon. But it does seem to be a popular understanding during the Reformation of at least the Radicals and I also think the Calvinistic churches (albeit Calvin had a attitude of being like what they perceived the pope to be it seems).

that Scripture and Tradition are two complementary but independent streams of revelation, which can both therefore serve as final courts of appeal.
I would like to point out that this isn't the Catholic position at all. Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture in Catholicism is one stream of Divine Revelation, and never two independent streams.

When Luther says Scripture alone, therefore, he not only doesn't exclude tradition from consideration, he doesn't even exclude tradition as authoritative. He means that Scripture alone is the final recourse when evaluating the worth of later traditions.
Ok.

This still brings up the question of private interpretation. But I think Luther would generally look not to private individual interpretation but to public interpretation of the international community of expert scholars. It's helpful to remember that almost every Renaissance humanist younger than Luther joined in the Reformation, and there was a fairly strong belief at the time that expert scholarly opinion was on the side of the Reformation. Luther's view is not private interpretation of individuals vs. the ecclesiasical interpretation of traditional authorities, but the public interpretation of the international scholarly community vs. (and I apologize for this terminology, but I think it helps get the point across) the private interpretations of the church's uneducated nobility. Scholar-popes like Benedict XVI weren't even on Luther's radar.
Seems to be a trend with college students. To jump on the rebellion wagon whenever it prevents itself. Just thinking.

Of course, I think one reason why Luther rejects the whole idea of Tradition as a final court of appeal is because he firmly believed that the only genuinely ancient, first-century apostolic tradition we have access to is the New Testament itself. The New Testament itself is the apostolic deposit of tradition that is handed over to each generation. What he would have done with serious attempts to use scholarly methods to discover genuine apostolic traditions- like Dom Gregory Dix attempted to do with the liturgy- or with textual discoveries like the Didache, I don't know. And whether he ever really dealt with the antenicene fathers, I don't know, either; mostly I think the church fathers appealed to his day were the great fourth and fifth centuries eastern fathers of the apostolic councils and the three great western fathers. I'm inclined to give a bit more credence than some Lutherans to all of those academic attempts to understanding Scripture in light of early developments of tradition and to search for genuine first century Christian practices and beliefs. And, of course, I genuinely appreciate the whole history of the development of doctrine and the evolution of tradition, and so long as it isn't the final court of appeal, I think that process needs to be taken into account. I wouldn't have my degree in the history of theology if I didn't.
Interesting viewpoints. Thank you.

I would like to say that you and I are never going to agree on everything, especially what our faith traditions differ in; but I do respect your viewpoints and your approach. They are always informative.
 
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