Roman Catholic -- Seventh-day Adventist -- the Truth

[lonnienord]

My parents are Seventh-day Adventists. About 25 years ago i became a Roman Catholic. I became Catholic because it is where i feel i can best obey and serve JESUS.

But since both claim to be "The True Church" or "The Truth" i am constantly reexamining my decision.

My mom, who i love dearly, is still alive and we talk frequantly. She is a Seventh-day Adventist

In this discussion i am going to use the Bible (usually the New Century Version - which by the way is the translation Jerry Thomas used in The Messiah which is his modern rendering of The Desire of Ages. I am currently reading The Messiah and will have more to say about this great book later.

I will also frequantly refer to the Catechism of the Catholic Church which quotes scripture very frequanly. It can be found at: http://www.christusrex.org/www2/kerygma/ccc/searchcat.html

My dad bought the Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary. I loved reading it as a child but no one has taken my hints and given it to me yet. I whish it was available on line.

I look forward to an interesting discussion. I suggest that all positions of these two great churches be open to discussion except the Sabbath which is being discussed in another thread which i read and comment on frequantly.

Lets have a friendly Christian discussion!! I am glad to admit that there are good SDA christians.

and let us pray for each other!!

all for JESUS!!
lonnie

 

[lonnienord]

What is truth? How can we know the truth?

The Roman Catholic Church claims to have been begun by JESUS the Thursday before HE died. The churh was "born" on Pentecost 10 days after JESUS went to heaven.

Why does the SDA church think JESUS waited 1800 years before establishing the SDA church. Were there any true follower of JESUS during those 1800 years?

Where do you think the Bible came from? Do you appreciate the fact that the Roman Catholic church decided which books should be placed in the Bible and monks copied the Bible by hand over and over?

that is enough to get us started.

all for JESUS!!
lonnie

 

[gitlance]

---

 

[Veritas]

What is truth? How can we know the truth?

The Roman Catholic Church claims to have been begun by JESUS the Thursday before HE died. The churh was "born" on Pentecost 10 days after JESUS went to heaven.

Why does the SDA church think JESUS waited 1800 years before establishing the SDA church. Were there any true follower of JESUS during those 1800 years?

Where do you think the Bible came from? Do you appreciate the fact that the Roman Catholic church decided which books should be placed in the Bible and monks copied the Bible by hand over and over?

that is enough to get us started.

all for JESUS!!
lonnie

Hi Lonnie!

I think your points are excellent. I would also ask, why does the SDA church hold Ellen White's teachings to the level of scripture? Even a cursory examination shows that she is contradictory, inconsistent, *****, etc. I had an SDA friend who (thank God) didn't proselytize too much. But she did give some of Ellen White writings including the Desire of Ages and Steps to Christ. I love our SDA siblings but feel their religion is too legalistic (an undue emphasis on Saturday worship) and place unnecessary burdens on believers such as vegetarianism.

 

[lonnienord]

Hi Lonnie!

I think your points are excellent. I would also ask, why does the SDA church hold Ellen White's teachings to the level of scripture? Even a cursory examination shows that she is contradictory, inconsistent, heretical, etc. I had an SDA friend who (thank God) didn't proselytize too much. But she did give some of Ellen White writings including the Desire of Ages and Steps to Christ. I love our SDA siblings but feel their religion is too legalistic (an undue emphasis on Saturday worship) and place unnecessary burdens on believers such as vegetarianism.

you have the same misconception many ani catholics have.

Catholics don't worship Mary and SDA s don't hold Ellen Whites teaching as being equal to scripturel

Also even though as a SDA i choose to be Vegetarian it is not required. I did it then and try to do it now because i believe it is healthy. One of the reasons i find this discussion interesting is that many mainline christians think Catholics are legalistic.

all for JESUS
lonnie

 

[Veritas]

you have the same misconception many ani catholics have.

Catholics don't worship Mary and SDA s don't hold Ellen Whites teaching as being equal to scripturel

Also even though as a SDA i choose to be Vegetarian it is not required. I did it then and try to do it now because i believe it is healthy. One of the reasons i find this discussion interesting is that many mainline christians think Catholics are legalistic.

all for JESUS
lonnie

Sorry to be disagreeable. Perhaps SDA's don't have documents that implicitly state the Ellen White and vegetarian issues, but I've seen from personal experience that my impressions hold some water. There are unspoken pressures to believe a certain thing or conform to a certain practice even if it's not "required". Otherwise, very few SDA's would be vegetarians. All you have to do is read some of the threads here in GT to see the Saturday worship thing is sort of the battle line if you will between what is a Christian or not. I've also had personal experiences with the Amazing Facts! folks who travel town to town putting on presentations about the SDA version of the "end times". It's point blank anti-Catholic. They won't even admit upfront that they're SDA. Check out their website.

These things said, I reiterate my love for the SDA's and my hope that they can accept Catholics without calling the pope the anti-Christ or the Catholic Church the harlot of Babylon.

 

[cenimo]

There are several SDA online Bible courses available.
When they cover the 4th commandment, the Sabbath, in those course they quote documents from the Catholic church itself about changing the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.
In one of those documents, a Catholic official is in fact quotes as saying the Seventh Day Adventists are the only "consistent" Protestants. (But then again, SDA don't consider themselves Protetants).

Anyway, this is from Lesson 33, The Moment of Truth, The Great Trickery
http://www.tagnet.org/cyberspace/Lessons/Truth-33/trut1-33.html

[font=arial, arial, helvetica]In our next lessons, we will see how the Word of God has foretold that men would change the day of rest, from Saturday to Sunday.

But for now, let's carefully read the testimony of the Roman Catholic Church itself, which willingly and openly acknowledges that it bears sole responsibility for the change of the day of rest.

...[/font][font=arial, arial, helvetica]The Catholic Church, not the Bible, teaches the observance of Sunday:[/font] [font=arial, arial, helvetica]«We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.»
(Peter Geiermann, The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, 1977, p.50.)

«It is curious to recall that this observance of Sunday, which is the only principle of Protestantism, not only does not rest upon the Bible, but is in flagrant contradiction with the letter of the Bible requiring the rest of the Sabbath, or Saturday. It was the Catholic Church which, by the authority of Jesus Christ, has transferred this rest to Sunday.»
(Monsignor Louis Segur, Plain Talk About the Protestantism of Today, 1868 ed., p. 207.)[/font]
[font=arial, arial, helvetica]«You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.»
(Catholic Cardinal James Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers, 1917 ed., pp. 72, 73.)

«If protestants were following the Bible, they would worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church.»
(Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, letter of Feb. 10, 1920.)[/font]

[font=arial, arial, helvetica]The Catholic Church willingly recognizes going against the Word of God:[/font] [font=arial, arial, helvetica]«Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saturday to Sunday. (...) Now the Church instituted, by God's authority, Sunday as the day of worship.»
(Martin J. Scott, Things Catholics Are Asked About, 1927 ed., p. 136.)

«The Catholic Church, (...) by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday.»
(Catholic Cardinal James Gibbons, The Catholic Mirror, Sept. 23, 1893.)

«If we consulted the Bible only, we should still have to keep holy the Sabbath Day, that is, Saturday.»
(John Laux, A Course in Religion for Catholic High Schools and Academies, 1936 ed., vol. 1, p. 51.)

[/font][font=arial, arial, helvetica]THE CHOICE: the Bible and Sabbath, or the Catholic Church and Sunday.[/font] [font=arial, arial, helvetica]«Reason and sense demand the acceptance of one or the other of these alternatives: either Protestantism and the keeping holy of Saturday, or Catholicity and the keeping holy of Sunday. Compromise is impossible.»
(Catholic Cardinal James Gibbons, The Catholic Mirror, Dec. 23, 1893.)

«The Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her Founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant, claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the Seventh Day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant.»
(The Catholic Universe Bulletin, Aug. 14, 1942, p. 4.)

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
[/font]

I'm not saying they're right- or wrong- I'm just putting the information out. (The courses are intereting and the artwork is incredible - and no, I'm not SDA).
The emphasis in SDA churches is on a relationship with Jesus, the 4th commandment, a healthy lifestyle, and prophecy. Considering a lot of things going on in other churches today, maybe not such a bad way to be.

PS

I have my own little quirk, I don't think that any church that calls itself
The One True Church can be The One True Church.

 

[Veritas]

There are several SDA online Bible courses available.
When they cover the 4th commandment, the Sabbath, in those course they quote documents from the Catholic church itself about changing the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.
In one of those documents, a Catholic official is in fact quotes as saying the Seventh Day Adventists are the only "consistent" Protestants. (But then again, SDA don't consider themselves Protetants).

Anyway, this is from Lesson 33, The Moment of Truth, The Freat Trickery
http://www.tagnet.org/cyberspace/Lessons/Truth-33/trut1-33.html

[font=arial, arial, helvetica]In our next lessons, we will see how the Word of God has foretold that men would change the day of rest, from Saturday to Sunday.

But for now, let's carefully read the testimony of the Roman Catholic Church itself, which willingly and openly acknowledges that it bears sole responsibility for the change of the day of rest.

...[/font][font=arial, arial, helvetica]The Catholic Church, not the Bible, teaches the observance of Sunday:[/font] [font=arial, arial, helvetica]«We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.»
(Peter Geiermann, The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, 1977, p.50.)

«It is curious to recall that this observance of Sunday, which is the only principle of Protestantism, not only does not rest upon the Bible, but is in flagrant contradiction with the letter of the Bible requiring the rest of the Sabbath, or Saturday. It was the Catholic Church which, by the authority of Jesus Christ, has transferred this rest to Sunday.»
(Monsignor Louis Segur, Plain Talk About the Protestantism of Today, 1868 ed., p. 207.)[/font]
[font=arial, arial, helvetica]«You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.»
(Catholic Cardinal James Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers, 1917 ed., pp. 72, 73.)

«If protestants were following the Bible, they would worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church.»
(Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, letter of Feb. 10, 1920.)[/font]

[font=arial, arial, helvetica]The Catholic Church willingly recognizes going against the Word of God:[/font] [font=arial, arial, helvetica]«Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saturday to Sunday. (...) Now the Church instituted, by God's authority, Sunday as the day of worship.»
(Martin J. Scott, Things Catholics Are Asked About, 1927 ed., p. 136.)

«The Catholic Church, (...) by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday.»
(Catholic Cardinal James Gibbons, The Catholic Mirror, Sept. 23, 1893.)

«If we consulted the Bible only, we should still have to keep holy the Sabbath Day, that is, Saturday.»
(John Laux, A Course in Religion for Catholic High Schools and Academies, 1936 ed., vol. 1, p. 51.)

[/font][font=arial, arial, helvetica]THE CHOICE: the Bible and Sabbath, or the Catholic Church and Sunday.[/font] [font=arial, arial, helvetica]«Reason and sense demand the acceptance of one or the other of these alternatives: either Protestantism and the keeping holy of Saturday, or Catholicity and the keeping holy of Sunday. Compromise is impossible.»
(Catholic Cardinal James Gibbons, The Catholic Mirror, Dec. 23, 1893.)

«The Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her Founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant, claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the Seventh Day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant.»
(The Catholic Universe Bulletin, Aug. 14, 1942, p. 4.)

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
[/font]

I'm not saying they're right- or wrong- I'm just putting the information out. (The courses are intereting and the artwork is incredible - and no, I'm not SDA).
The emphasis in SDA churches is on a relationship with Jesus, the 4th commandment, a healthy lifestyle, and prophecy. Considering a lot of things going on in other churches today, maybe not such a bad way to be.

PS

I have my own little quirk, I don't think that any church that calls itself
The One True Church can be.

Looks like info. from an anti-Catholic website to me. Documents from the early Church even before the end of the first century state that Sunday is the day of worship. Scripture tells us that we are no longer bound by the Jewish Sabbath observances.

The Letter of Barnabas



"We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead" (Letter of Barnabas 15:6–8 [A.D. 74]).


Ignatius of Antioch



"[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death" (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).


Justin Martyr



"[W]e too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined [on] you—namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your heart. . . . [H]ow is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us—I speak of fleshly circumcision and Sabbaths and feasts? . . . God enjoined you to keep the Sabbath, and imposed on you other precepts for a sign, as I have already said, on account of your unrighteousness and that of your fathers . . ." (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 18, 21 [A.D. 155]).

"But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead" (First Apology 67 [A.D. 155])."

From the very beginning starting with the apostles on through the Church of the first 3 centuries worshipped on Sunday. We are no longer bound by the law but are under grace. Worshipping on Saturday does not save us and worshipping on Sunday does not condemn us.

I do thank you though for proving my point on the undue emphasis SDA's place on Saturday worship. Making that a main point of doctrine gives the illusion of a works based salvation.

 

[lonnienord]

interestingly i totally agree with the SDA position that the Church, to which JESUS gave the authoriy, changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday. i have no trouble with that because my JESUS did indeed give the church the authority to make that change.

all for JESUS!!
lonnie

 

[Ave Maria]

you have the same misconception many ani catholics have.

Catholics don't worship Mary and SDA s don't hold Ellen Whites teaching as being equal to scripturel

Also even though as a SDA i choose to be Vegetarian it is not required. I did it then and try to do it now because i believe it is healthy. One of the reasons i find this discussion interesting is that many mainline christians think Catholics are legalistic.

all for JESUS
lonnie

Lonnie, how are you Seventh Day Adventist and Catholic at the same time?

 

[lonnienord]

i'm not! I am a Roman Catholic. i was raised SDA. I went to SDA schools grade 1-12. I choose to become a Roman Catholic so i can recieve JESUS as HE told us to do. I believe the Catholic Church is the one true church the church JESUS established.

So i know SDA and when someone attacts it with false information i'll correct them. I am hoping some SDAs will join us in this discussion.

i am a convert like you.

all for JESUS!!
lonnie

 

[ps139]

Why does the SDA church think JESUS waited 1800 years before establishing the SDA church. Were there any true follower of JESUS during those 1800 years?

Maybe because Ellen White didn't come around until the 1800s? Hmm, I wonder where her founding the church was prophesied in Scripture, or even mentioned?
Nowhere.
Lonnienlord you have stumbled upon an inconsistency in their position.

 

[cenimo]

ps139

wonder where her founding the church was prophesied in Scripture, or even mentioned?

Wouldn't that apply to almost all churches? Or is that your point?

 

[ps139]

It is a secondary point.

 

[Cliff2]

Let me ne honest and come out and state that I am one hundred percent SDA. Now you know where I am coming from.

It seems so far that I may be the only SDA online that is looking at this Forum and the questions that have been presented.

You have to understand that I am not an official spokes person for the SDA Church and do not have all the answers. But I will do my best and at times may have to ask people in the SDA Church for their advice.

It seems as though EGW is a major sticking point with many people in the community and on here as well.

I do not have the answer to that in a nut shell. I very strongly believe in her writtings as being given by God to her. You need to read books that have been written by her to see that she does not go against what the Bible says.

To a large degree it is in most cases people misconception about her that is the problem.

I am not going to be online all the time so please accept my apologies if your post is not answered as soon you would like as there are many here and only one of me.

 

[lonnienord]

Thank you Cliff for joining this discussion!! If you ever do meet any other SDA's on this forum please point them to this thread. Also if you are on any SDA lists could you see if any of them want to join this forum and this discussion?

all for JESUS!!
lonnie

 

[Cliff2]

What is truth? How can we know the truth?

The Roman Catholic Church claims to have been begun by JESUS the Thursday before HE died. The churh was "born" on Pentecost 10 days after JESUS went to heaven.

Why does the SDA church think JESUS waited 1800 years before establishing the SDA church. Were there any true follower of JESUS during those 1800 years?

Where do you think the Bible came from? Do you appreciate the fact that the Roman Catholic church decided which books should be placed in the Bible and monks copied the Bible by hand over and over?

that is enough to get us started.

all for JESUS!!
lonnie

The Church that Jesus started believed the same as the SDA Church. It was not called the SDA Church then.

Look at some of the beliefs of both.

Justified by fath alone.

Paul says that

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast."

The early Christian Church believed that and so do we.

Take the Sabbath and I do not want to make this another Sabbath thread, but it was kept by the early Christains and we keep it today.

Matthew 24:20
Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.

Jesus did not do away with the Sabbath.

Paul did not do away with the Sabbath.

Acts 17:2
As his custom was, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

The truth that the early Christian Church held to start with was gradually lost through persecution from very early on until the awakening of the early 1800's.

Through out the so called dark ages or the middle ages the Bible was not in the language of the common people. It was not until it was made accessible to them thjat truth was found again.

Luther brought to many the concept that faith and faith alone saves. Then there were others that brought along different truths that we have today. the Baptists brought to us baptism by imerssion and also made the truth of the Sabbath to the early Adventists which was accecpted by them.

If Luther had of been given everything in one night, he would have been over whelmed by it all. So as each truth was received by the people, God gave more.

 

[Cliff2]

Thank you Cliff for joining this discussion!! If you ever do meet any other SDA's on this forum please point them to this thread. Also if you are on any SDA lists could you see if any of them want to join this forum and this discussion?

all for JESUS!!
lonnie

I will do that, thanks.

 

[BrightCandle]

SDAs believe that EGW was what is technically called a "non-canonical prophet" in other words a prophet that was a true prophet but did not have a book included in the recognized canon of Scripture. There are many examples of non-canonical prophets in the Bible, like Nathan (II Sam. 12:1-15) in the OT, and in the NT, Agabus (Acts 21:10-11), who were without question prophets, but did not write a book included in the canon of Scripture. In conclusion, SDAs hold EGW's writings as a source of counsel, instruction, and for devotional reading, but hold the Bible as our source of doctrine.

 

[BrightCandle]

What is truth? How can we know the truth?

The Roman Catholic Church claims to have been begun by JESUS the Thursday before HE died. The churh was "born" on Pentecost 10 days after JESUS went to heaven.

Why does the SDA church think JESUS waited 1800 years before establishing the SDA church. Were there any true follower of JESUS during those 1800 years?

Where do you think the Bible came from? Do you appreciate the fact that the Roman Catholic church decided which books should be placed in the Bible and monks copied the Bible by hand over and over?

that is enough to get us started.

all for JESUS!!
lonnie

SDA believe the "church" was founded by Jesus, but that the church of Rome as early as the 300's apostacized during the time when the pagan emperor Contstantine joined the church, and with the blessing of Pope Sylvester exalted Sunday in place of Sabbath, and introduced a multitude of other pagan rituals and beliefs into the Roman Church at that time as well. God's true followers during that time were scattered throughout Europe and Asian because of persecution.