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Role Reversal

Split Rock

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What makes you think these mutations are 'random'?

Calling it 'random' sets up a mental block that will end up confusing you.
You evos are the ones that claim they are random and unguided. Don't blame me for showing how dumb that is!

When something mutates, it can only mutate into the shape that forces are applying on it.

If I bend a metal rod, the metal rod stops bending when I stop applying downward force.
True, but mutations can result in many different events: deletion, insertion, substitution, etc. The question is, how can any of these events turn a lizard into a bird??

I submit that what you think are 'random mutations', are nothing more than DNA molecules obeying the forces of nature that are being applied to them.
Yes, but the forces of nature are changing what is coded in the DNA to differnent amino acid codes, or even worse, deletions and insertions, etc. All very bad for the protein being coded for!

And as far as 'new information' is concerned, the new shape, of course, would allow for additional information to arise.

If I bend a metal rod into the shape of a tuning fork, it can do something it couldn't do before -- resonate a new tune.
But it is not "new" information if it is old information changed a little. Where does the New information come from that turned an ape into a human?
 
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Doveaman

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Evolutionists (for lack of a better word) will use sources such as AIG to make our arguments
How about evolutionists using the Bible to make your arguments since that's were creationists make their arguments from?
 
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sandwiches

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What makes you think these mutations are 'random'?

Calling it 'random' sets up a mental block that will end up confusing you.

When something mutates, it can only mutate into the shape that forces are applying on it.

If I bend a metal rod, the metal rod stops bending when I stop applying downward force.

I submit that what you think are 'random mutations', are nothing more than DNA molecules obeying the forces of nature that are being applied to them.
But why would that rod only bend to only within those specific parameters? Where do these constraints come from? Why doesn't the rod bend outwards or into all kinds of shapes? In the same vein, why do things in nature 'obey' these laws? And more importantly, where did they come from?

And as far as 'new information' is concerned, the new shape, of course, would allow for additional information to arise.

If I bend a metal rod into the shape of a tuning fork, it can do something it couldn't do before -- resonate a new tune.

That's not new information. That's the same information merely changed. A fork might be useful for eating but it still metal and no new information was introduced into the metal. It's merely reshaped now.
 
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Doveaman

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role-reversal will never happen, because every last person on this forum (except me) is too proud to do such a thing, for fear they may actually make a good argument in favor of the opposite side.
Especially if the Bible is used. :)
 
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AV1611VET

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You evos are the ones that claim they are random and unguided. Don't blame me for showing how dumb that is!
And again, I have to disagree with 'random'.

If I drop a jar of vacuum-packed peanut butter from a helicopter onto the tarmac 1000 times, then 1000 times -- if no values change -- the exact same spread pattern is going to be created.

(I'll be back for the rest of this post later.)
 
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sandwiches

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On a side note: I wish we could do this role reversal without resorting to stereotypes or parodies of one another. I see a lot of atheists calling others 'evos' and talking about satan worshipping and all kinds of other nonsense, that I think defeat the purpose of the thread. Don't try to be a caricature of what you think a creationist is. My suggestion is to think of the best possible arguments you can think of for the opposite side and present them as best as you can.
 
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Doveaman

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I like this idea.

I think as a Biblical creationist, I believe that God created the universe, the solar system, and Earth and evolved us to this current state in seven actual days. He created for us a universal history that would make sense for our minds but He also left a testament of His work in the Bible. There is no embedded, apparent, or 'faked' age. There is real age as the universe and everything in it DID, IN FACT, AGE the equivalent of billions of years in just seven actual days.


This reasoning is confirmed by both empirical evidence and, more importantly, the Bible.


I challenge anyone to refute these claims.
You haven't even presented anything to be refuted. Citations please.
 
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Doveaman

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in order to defend evolution, one has to understand it. And I think 99% of all creationists don't.
in order to defend creationism, one has to understand what the Bible says about Genesis. And I think 99% of all evolutionists don't.
 
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Doveaman

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On a side note: I wish we could do this role reversal without resorting to stereotypes or parodies of one another. I see a lot of atheists calling others 'evos' and talking about satan worshipping and all kinds of other nonsense, that I think defeat the purpose of the thread. Don't try to be a caricature of what you think a creationist is. My suggestion is to think of the best possible arguments you can think of for the opposite side and present them as best as you can.
You're really into this game, aren't you?
 
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AV1611VET

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On a side note: I wish we could do this role reversal without resorting to stereotypes or parodies of one another. I see a lot of atheists calling others 'evos' and talking about satan worshipping and all kinds of other nonsense, that I think defeat the purpose of the thread. Don't try to be a caricature of what you think a creationist is. My suggestion is to think of the best possible arguments you can think of for the opposite side and present them as best as you can.
Very good advice!
 
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AV1611VET

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True, but mutations can result in many different events: deletion, insertion, substitution, etc.
Mutations are the product of the forces acting on their "parents".

Each mutation is a testimony of how nature operates within the scope of the forces that literally shape it.

Whether a deletion, an insertion, or a substitution, the one thing in common is that the output matches the input.
The question is, how can any of these events turn a lizard into a bird??
Every lizard's DNA has a bird waiting to get out.

All it takes is a little "prompting" from nature, and voila! a beautiful peacock strutting her stuff, or a robin building her nest, or a parrot with the ability to imitate human sounds with great accuracy.

I believe it's called: the beauty of nature.
Yes, but the forces of nature are changing what is coded in the DNA to differnent amino acid codes, or even worse, deletions and insertions, etc. All very bad for the protein being coded for!
Again, I don't see why you're calling this 'worse'.

Yes, it's tragic when someone's DNA 'goes bad' and they get cancer or something.

I hate to see that, but at the same time, you have to realize that mother nature does not play favorites and is, indeed, neutral.
But it is not "new" information if it is old information changed a little.
It is "new" in the sense that it is an incipient in a new surrounding.

Every new-born child is new to its environment, is it not?
Where does the New information come from that turned an ape into a human?
From space (radiation), from earth (carbons and hydrates and nitrogens and oxygens), and from other sources that combine to apply just enough "pressure" (force) on a DNA molecule that, when it replicates, the "child" is different from the "parent".
 
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AV1611VET

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But why would that rod only bend to only within those specific parameters?
Because that rod doesn't have a mind of its own.

It only bends until the force bending it lets up.

By the same token, these "rods" we call double-helixes are trying their best to replicate themselves, but there are forces acting on them from all directions.

By way of a very poor analogy, it's like trying to photocopy a picture in a dust storm.
 
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sandwiches

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You're really into this game, aren't you?

I think it could be helpful in understanding one another better. For instance. it's making me think of defensible reasons why creationism might be true.
 
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Vatis

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Every lizard's DNA has a bird waiting to get out.

All it takes is a little "prompting" from nature, and voila! a beautiful peacock strutting her stuff, or a robin building her nest, or a parrot with the ability to imitate human sounds with great accuracy.

Have you ever seen a lizard giving birth to a bird?
No? I didn't think so...

From space (radiation), from earth (carbons and hydrates and nitrogens and oxygens), and from other sources that combine to apply just enough "pressure" (force) on a DNA molecule that, when it replicates, the "child" is different from the "parent".

OK, what you are saying accounts for variation, but this doesn't explain how new genetic material arises.
For example we can say that our lizard has a mouth, but the bird has a beak. Were did the information for the beak come from? This is new information, not old one which just changed slightly...

in order to defend creationism, one has to understand what the Bible says about Genesis. And I think 99% of all evolutionists don't.
I'm really sorry Doveman but I have to disagree with you on this one. Creationism is so simple you could explain it to a child.
This is of course another argument for creationism, it's called Occam's Razor.
 
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Mike Elphick

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I agree with Dr Jason Lisle when he says:-

1. If the Bible were not true, logic would not be meaningful.

2. Logic is meaningful.

3. Therefore, the Bible is true.
70371

That's the trouble with atheistic scientists, they don't give God the recognition he deserves for generously providing them with the scientific method for bashing creationists.
 
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AV1611VET

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Have you ever seen a lizard giving birth to a bird?
No, but every time a bird gives birth, it gives birth to a lizard; and that is the proper definition of evolution.

A lizard is not required to give birth to a bird, because steps are involved between the lizard and the bird -- steps that cannot occur in the womb in a single generation.
OK, what you are saying accounts for variation, but this doesn't explain how new genetic material arises.
For example we can say that our lizard has a mouth, but the bird has a beak. Were did the information for the beak come from? This is new information, not old one which just changed slightly...
Nature has the ability to program herself to accommodate a new environment.

If additional input is required, then a new trait will emerge if that information is supplied, and a new trait will not emerge if the information is not supplied. It's as simple as that.

Where that new information comes from is not yet understood and is one of those things that is pending discovery.

In my opinion, the new information is embedded somewhere in the new environment.

All a mouth-to-beak transition shows, is that new information was indeed supplied -- and acted upon accordingly.

Evolution is not required to reveal its sources.
 
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Gracchus

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Goddidit, before the laws of nature changed. And besides, "A man's belly shall be satisfied with the fruit of his mouth; and with the increase of his lips shall he be filled." Moreover, "To morrow go ye down against them: behold, they come up by the cliff of Ziz; and ye shall find them at the end of the brook, before the wilderness of Jeruel."

(Invokes Poe's law.)

:bow::preach:
 
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