Role of Mary

[Ainesis]

In the same way, the Virgin is the source of all that Christ shares in common with the rest of humanity (ie. a physical body, a human mind, a human will, et cetera) and the Father, as the Source of all things, is the Source of Christ's Divinity.

Josh, may I ask what this is based on?

 

[Oblio]

And any Catholic or Orthodox will tell you that Marian devotion is appropriate only insofar as it points to Christ -- what she did to enable Him to bring about our salvation.

When I mentioned this it was received quite well with the Baptist's Senior group that we hosted at our church for a tour the other day

 

[nephilimiyr]

But you are picking and choosing definitions to find one that offends your Protestant sensibilities. If the Christological/Theological usage of the the phrase Mother of God confuses you or leads you to false assumptions, I suggest that the precise term Theotokos might be more appropriate in your case.

Good enough, I can understand what you are talking about and I guess for the most part agree...Theotokos is a word I had already said I would agree with so no problem there.

good day!

 

[ExOrienteLux]

Josh, may I ask what this is based on?

My understanding of Chalcedon, which is quite possibly wrong on the particulars, seeing as I've never actually read the Canons and decisions of the Council, but only summaries and overviews. I'm no theologian, so a lot of what I say should be taken a grain of salt. I say what I've found from my (albeit nowhere near complete enough) study of the Fathers, and I oftentimes post at work, where I can't get to their writings.

Could I have some more knowledgeable Orthodo-folks help me out/back me up/correct me when I'm wrong/sic a babushka on me?

And any Catholic or Orthodox will tell you that Marian devotion is appropriate only insofar as it points to Christ -- what she did to enable Him to bring about our salvation.

But, I am speaking from experience when I say this: in most of the icons of the Church, the Theotokos is always pictured with Christ. In all of her major icons in any church, she is always shown with her Son. For example, the icon behind the Altar shows her with her arms upraised in prayer and Christ enthroned in her heart. This shows her as a perfect Christian, the fulfillment of our fight and the hope for our future. Also, in her icon on the iconstasis, she either holds the infant Child in her arm and points to Him with her right hand.

Here's an image of an icon of the first type (Our Lady of the Sign) and here's one of the second type (Our Lady the Directress).

Hope these help, and I'll watch out for babushkas.

+IC XC NIKA+
Josh.

 

[Ainesis]

My understanding of Chalcedon, which is quite possibly wrong on the particulars, seeing as I've never actually read the Canons and decisions of the Council, but only summaries and overviews. I'm no theologian, so a lot of what I say should be taken a grain of salt. I say what I've found from my (albeit nowhere near complete enough) study of the Fathers, and I oftentimes post at work, where I can't get to their writings.

Could I have some more knowledgeable Orthodo-folks help me out/back me up/correct me when I'm wrong/sic a babushka on me?

Josh,

Thank you! Based on your recommendation, I have read the dogmatic eptisle of Leo I which was presented at Chalcedon. It is a pretty impressive read and I thought I would share it with those here who may benefit from it as well.

http://www.dailycatholic.org/history/4ecumen1.htm

I will also post a snippet of info that speaks directly to some of the posts that have been made here recently:

"What was taken from the mother of the Lord was the nature without the guilt. And the fact that the birth was miraculous does not imply that in the lord Jesus Christ, born from the virgin's womb, the nature is different from ours. The same one is true God and true man."

Thank you for suggesting this, as it does contain a certain beauty to me. I think it is an awesome document.

God Bless!

 

[RonBa]

We are still waiting for someone to come up with Scripture that says Mary was a virgin for ever.

Not there.

 

[Axion]

We are still waiting for someone to come up with Scripture that says Mary was a virgin for ever.

Not there.

I think you've got the wrong thread.

Read befre you post!

 

[RonBa]

I think you've got the wrong thread.

Read befre you post!

You may think I have, but I have not.

If Mary was not a virgin forever then she has no role at all. If on the other hand she was then one maybe able to argue a role for her.

I believe that Mary's role was to be the mother of Jesus. That is all, she was a sinner, she needed a Saviour just like we all do.

She has no role at all now. We come to the Father through Jesus Christ, not Mary or any other dead saint.

 

[Lynn73]

Amen, RonBa! I concur. She has absolutely nothing to do with someone getting saved now. Her role is over and done.

 

[Polycarp1]

You may think I have, but I have not.

If Mary was not a virgin forever then she has no role at all. If on the other hand she was then one maybe able to argue a role for her.

I believe that Mary's role was to be the mother of Jesus. That is all, she was a sinner, she needed a Saviour just like we all do.

She has no role at all now. We come to the Father through Jesus Christ, not Mary or any other dead saint.

Mary was, according to Scripture, the chosen instrument through which the Savior would take on humanity for our sakes, and willingly consented to take that role. And she, with all the saints, is alive in Christ and in the Heavenly places which He has prepared for us.

Whether or not she was perpetually virgin is totally irrelevant to her having willingly taken that role in God's plan.

She deserves our respect, whether or not we believe any particular thing about her.

Oh, and the title of "God-Bearer" (Theotokos) is something she is entitled to, not in and of herself, but because it was the chosen way to stress the trueness of the Nicene faith against the Nestorian heresy. And that's important -- how many times have you heard someone talk about "God" and "Jesus Christ" as though they were two completely distinct things? That's not Christianity -- it's at best Arianism or Nestorianism.

 

[RonBa]

Mary was, according to Scripture, the chosen instrument through which the Savior would take on humanity for our sakes, and willingly consented to take that role. And she, with all the saints, is alive in Christ and in the Heavenly places which He has prepared for us.

Whether or not she was perpetually virgin is totally irrelevant to her having willingly taken that role in God's plan.

She deserves our respect, whether or not we believe any particular thing about her.

Oh, and the title of "God-Bearer" (Theotokos) is something she is entitled to, not in and of herself, but because it was the chosen way to stress the trueness of the Nicene faith against the Nestorian heresy. And that's important -- how many times have you heard someone talk about "God" and "Jesus Christ" as though they were two completely distinct things? That's not Christianity -- it's at best Arianism or Nestorianism.

Mary was chosen by the Father to be the mother of Jesus Christ. That was the role of Mary. She was to instruct, teach and nurture Him to adulthood. This is what she did.

In turn we are to respect her for this but not make her into something that she was never meant to be.

Making her or trying to make her into a saint is not Biblical.

I do not have one verse to say she ever went to heaven.

Can you give me one.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Mary was chosen by the Father to be the mother of Jesus Christ. That was the role of Mary. She was to instruct, teach and nurture Him to adulthood. This is what she did.

In turn we are to respect her for this but not make her into something that she was never meant to be.

Making her or trying to make her into a saint is not Biblical.

I do not have one verse to say she ever went to heaven.

Can you give me one.

RonBa,

You're really gonna have to give up this idea that everything you need to know about Christianity can be found in scripture.

What you have said here is just plain blasphemy......

P.S. What does the word "saint" mean to you?

Forgive me...

 

[Polycarp1]

The only people we know from Scripture to have gone to heaven, aside from angels following visitations, are Elijah and the penitent thief (presuming that "Paradise" and Heaven mean the same thing).

The very content of RonBa's post shows how ludicrous his comments are -- who does Paul call "saints"? Do any of us have any hope of going to Heaven? Why would this be true for us and not for the first person ever to believe in the Messiah?

 

[katherine2001]

If Mary is not a saint, then who is? Can anything they did match what she did?

Also, there are no verses saying that any of the apostles or anyone else, other than Elijah and the thief being there either (as Polycarp said), so does that mean that they are the only ones there? I guess we won't be there either, since we're not specifically listed as being in heaven either. If His mother won't be there, I guess the rest of us don't have a chance either.

 

[Bulldog]

Making her or trying to make her into a saint is not Biblical.

What is your definiation of a "saint"?

Do you believe that if Mary was not a perpetual virgin this means she cannot be a saint?

 

[CrossMovement]

How can Mary be the mother of God (Father) , when there is no one before him and that he created all things ?

Mary is the mother of Jesus (on earth) , she was just choosen to be the mother of the human frame of God (Jesus).

Why don't we also talk about Joseph ? He was part of the process of giving birth to the child too.

 

[Polycarp1]

How can Mary be the mother of God (Father) , when there is no one before him and that he created all things ?

Mary is the mother of Jesus (on earth) , she was just choosen to be the mother of the human frame of God (Jesus)

Ever have kids define a family? "A family is a father, a mother, and some kids" is what they'll usually come up with. The fact that the parents of that nuclear family are the children of their grandparents doesn't come home to them until they're quite a bit older than when they write definitions like this.

God does not equal the Father. God is the Holy Trinity -- three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

When people give Mary the title "Mother of God" they are affirming that she is the mother of God the Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

There are terms for people who confine use of God to mean exclusively the Father. But "Christian" is not among them.

 

[CrossMovement]

God does not equal the Father. God is the Holy Trinity -- three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

I know , I agree with that 100 %

It is a tricky subject to explain I must say

To make it more simple and less confusing , I agree with post number 4

 

[Cjwinnit]

The only people we know from Scripture to have gone to heaven, aside from angels following visitations, are Elijah and the penitent thief (presuming that "Paradise" and Heaven mean the same thing).

Unless I misunderstood the Resurrection, Jesus is mentioned as being in heaven too..

 

[Polycarp1]

Unless I misunderstood the Resurrection, Jesus is mentioned as being in heaven too..

:o Uh, yeah!

Although to get technical, you mean the Ascension, not the Resurrection -- the Resurrection raised Him back to life -- on Earth; it was 40 days later (according to Luke) when He went to Heaven.