Role of Mary

[SPALATIN]

To say someone is born free from original sin is not the same as saying they have no free will. Gabriel, Lucifer, Adam and Eve all came into existence free from original sin. Yet they still had a Free Will and chose to use it in very different ways. So did and does Mary.

The Angels were created before man, but were created for a different purpose. Yes, they had free will and as a result of their decision to implement that will we see Gabriel becoming one of God's messengers. We see Lucifer falling and becoming the adversary Satan. However, Adam and Eve, while they had free will before the fall did not have it after the fall. They only had a will to please self. Sin is the slavemaster here and they chose to separate from God by use of their free will, but that was taken away after they fell from Grace. Paul speaks extensively of this in his epistles. He says that he was a slave to sin, but through Christ he is now a bondservant for God.

Sin was a cruel slavemaster and Christ is a gentle master who aids us with his Holy Spirit to do his work. Sin whips us and beats us down to make us feel lower than dirt. Christ lifts us up and shakes off the dirt and says follow me.

 

[SumTinWong]

To say someone is born free from original sin is not the same as saying they have no free will. Gabriel, Lucifer, Adam and Eve all came into existence free from original sin. Yet they still had a Free Will and chose to use it in very different ways. So did and does Mary.

I disagree.

Mary was a child??? Not an adult. Rather patronising.

I consider thirteen a child.

Only if you choose to ignore so much else that is there.

Which you know I do.

 

[TSIBHOD]

No. Mary is Mother of God, because she is real physical mother of God the Son, the ONE person, Jesus Christ - who is fully God, begotten of the Father, and Fully Man, flesh of Mary. Joseph is not the real father of Jesus, God is. Joseph is adoptive father.


This is moving dangerously toward the major heresy of Docetism. You seem to be saying that Mary is just the adoptive parent of Jesus, and that he therefore took nothing from her. That would be to deny the reality of the Incarnation.

Mary IS the genetic predecessor of Jesus, in that His human flesh and human nature come from her. These are eternally united in one person, who is fully God and fully man. Mary is not and cannot be mother of "part" of a person. She is mother of Jesus Christ, God the Son.

The divinity of Jesus did not originate in Mary. That is what I was elucidating. His humanity originated in Mary, and His divinity originated in God. Mary was "mother" of all of this, because Jesus was one person.

I have no problem with Mary being the "mother of God." I just have a problem with where people go after that.

 

[Rich48]

Can't she be both.

Uhh-Yes

Rich

 

[Momzilla]

I consider thirteen a child.

In this day and age, 13 is indeed a child. But at that time, 13 was an adult--Mary was betrothed to be married to Joseph, remember.

 

[RonBa]

I beg to differ she is mentioned starting in Luke 1:27, and is found in a few more references, like Matthew 13:55.

I think this is argument is getting really old really fast. There are two sides to this argument, and both sides are in effect right. One will say without Mary saying yes, Jesus would not have been born into this world. The other camp says without God there would have been no birth in the first place and so Mary had nothing to do with it. Now I fall into the court that it was mostly God, as it was His idea, and His son that was sacrificed. But I do not deny that Mary was important in that act. Her response to the angel is also important:

So Mary said, “Yes, I am a servant of the Lord; let this happen to me according to your word.”

Had she said no, would Jesus have been born in that time and would we at this point be saved from our sins? Could God have found another person? Yes He could. But He didn't have to. God in His infinite wisdom chose Mary a humble girl to be the bearer, and earthly mother of His Son Jesus. I really think it does her a dishonor by portraying her as a mere vessel of the action that God wanted accomplished. If that is the case then so are we, so was Paul, Moses, Abraham, and even Peter. We hold what these men did as great and we honor them, why can't we do the same with Mary?

But what does all this mean to us now?

Some Protestants tend to focus on God, and sometimes deny the fact that Mary did play a very big role in God fulfilling His plan through her. I do believe as do the Catholics, that we can learn alot from this woman, and when the Lord calls us to serve we should do what she did and let it be. She is a true example of what a totally selfless act can do to the lives of many. And to be honest I do not think it a bad thing to try and imitate her response to God.

Many have tried to allegorize and create doctrines to further state what I stated above. Some have even tried to say that she was sinless, which to me does her another great dishonor. Sin is by definition, the active rebellion against God. If Mary was free from all sin (or rebellion against God), then she had no capability to say no to God. In effect it would seem that God stacked the deck by asking her to do what she did, if he removed the ability to say no, or to rebel. It seems to me that this is a dishonest thing to do, and not one I would associate with God. In every instance of asking someone to do something for Him, God gives the chance to say no. He did the same for Mary.

To me it seems that Mary was a wonderful child, and God saw fit to use her as the person in which His child would be born. That is a great honor, as God does not offer to use everyone to bear His child into the world, and she will be forever known as blessed because of it.

That is where the story of Mary ends for me, because that is where the story for her really ends in the Bible. She is mentioned at the wedding, and in passing at the cross, and at Pentecost. She very well may have been a great Saint while here on earth but anything written after the fact or any doctrines created about her are at this point all conjecture. I will instead stick with what I know, and I will always call her what she was:A saint and Blessed among women.

JMHO

Can you give the verses where Mary is mentioned at Pentecost please?

 

[Oblio]

All these with one accord devoted themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.
(Act 1:14 RSVA)

 

[RonBa]

All these with one accord devoted themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.
(Act 1:14 RSVA)

Thanks for that.

As far as I can see that is the last time we hear of Mary.

 

[RonBa]

"However vague and indefinite the creed of individual Protestants may be, it always rests on a few standard rules, or principles, bearing on the Sources of faith, the means of justification, and the constitution of the Church. An acknowledged Protestant authority, Philip Schaff (in "The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge", s.v. Reformation), sums up the principles of Protestantism in the following words:

The Protestant goes directly to the Word of God for instruction, and to the throne of grace in his devotions; whilst the pious Roman Catholic consults the teaching of his church, and prefers to offer his prayers through the medium of the Virgin Mary and the saints.

From this general principle of Evangelical freedom, and direct individual relationship of the believer to Christ, proceed the three fundamental doctrines of Protestantism — the absolute supremacy of (1) the Word, and of (2) the grace of Christ, and (3) the general priesthood of believers. . . ."

(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12495a.htm)

Take note of how the prayers are to go to God.

"The Protestant goes directly to the Word of God for instruction, and to the throne of grace in his devotions; whilst the pious Roman Catholic consults the teaching of his church, and prefers to offer his prayers through the medium of the Virgin Mary and the saints."

The medium is through "Mary"

As far as I know and can see there is nothing in the Bible to support that.
​

 

[Oblio]

Thanks for that.

As far as I can see that is the last time we hear of Mary.

We've given many references as to the life of the Theotokos. Because you refuse to critically examine them and just cast them aside merely becasue they are not in the Bible, does not make them false, nor does it cast doubt on their accuracy.

sums up the principles of Protestantism

From this general principle of Evangelical freedom, and direct individual relationship of the believer to Christ, proceed the three fundamental doctrines of Protestantism — the absolute supremacy of (1) the Word, and of (2) the grace of Christ, and (3) the general priesthood of believers. . . ."

Yet elsewhere you make a completely different statement as to what you understand Protestantism to be. Which is it ??

 

[Lotar]

In this day and age, 13 is indeed a child. But at that time, 13 was an adult--Mary was betrothed to be married to Joseph, remember.

Was she? I read that she was 15.

But yes, 13 was considered an adult.

 

[SPALATIN]

Was she? I read that she was 15.

But yes, 13 was considered an adult.

Wasn't 20 considered old maid status. I know it still is in Arkansas.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I read that she was 15 also...

Forgive me...

 

[KennySe]

Is Mary "mother of the King"/"Gebirah" ?

http://www.geocities.com/the_spacemouse/mary.html

http://www.trumpet7.com/_tracts/A Biblical Defense of Mary.htm

----

When does Mary CEASE to be His mother?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I think the problem that many Protestants have is that while they agree about her being the chosen one to be mother to the Christ they often see her as only human afterwards and having no special purpose. They also don't believe that she was like Elijah taken into heaven without dying. I'm not sure but I believe Catholic tradition supports this but scripture is silent about what happened to her.

She died, and ascended into heaven on the 3rd day.... That's the Orthodox teaching, I'm sure the Catholics agree...

Forgive me...

 

[SumTinWong]

In this day and age, 13 is indeed a child. But at that time, 13 was an adult--Mary was betrothed to be married to Joseph, remember.

Sure and in the some remote places int he world it is still practiced. Next time you are at the mall, take a look at a thirteen year old and tell me she is a woman. She isn't.

 

[Axion]

The Protestant goes directly to the Word of God for instruction, and to the throne of grace in his devotions; whilst the pious Roman Catholic consults the teaching of his church, and prefers to offer his prayers through the medium of the Virgin Mary and the saints.
​

This is of course an appalling caricature of both catholics and protestants.

While it sounds very fine, the "protestant" of course does not go to the "Word of God" for his instruction. (One assumes this means the Protestant Bible, the Word of God being Jesus.). The protestant goes to recent, novel traditions taught by his pastor and denomination, and backed by carefully chosen "proof texts" from scripture. Texts that disagree with the denominational tradition are ignored or explained away. This process leads to each protestant denomination disagreeing with every other protestant grouping on what the bible means.

The Catholic (and Orthodox) however, goes to the full deposit of Apostolic teaching, deposited, as the Bible itself says, in the Church not in any one book. Jesus gave teaching authority to the Church founded on Peter and the Apostles, centuries before the Bible was put together. Thus Catholics and Orthodox Christians hold to the same basic teachings as the original Christians and the first Fathers of the Church. teachings that have always been taught through all ages, as Jesus promised.

As for prayer Catholics of course do pray directly to God, through Jesus. They also pray in communion with Mary and all the Christians in the closer presence of god in heaven.

 

[SumTinWong]

This is of course an appalling caricature of both catholics and protestants.

While it sounds very fine, the "protestant" of course does not go to the "Word of God" for his instruction. (One assumes this means the Protestant Bible, the Word of God being Jesus.). The protestant goes to recent, novel traditions taught by his pastor and denomination, and backed by carefully chosen "proof texts" from scripture. Texts that disagree with the denominational tradition are ignored or explained away. This process leads to each protestant denomination disagreeing with every other protestant grouping on what the bible means.

Congratulations, you are the very first person in all these forums, I have decided to put on ignore. Even though I would not choose RonBa to speak for me as a non-Catholic, you certainly don't have the right. If a non-catholic were to portray you in a like manner you would have a fit. I am highly offended by your post, and I never wish to read anything else you write. That is pretty sad.

 

[Jay2004]

The Protestant goes directly to the Word of God for instruction, and to the throne of grace in his devotions; whilst the pious Roman Catholic consults the teaching of his church, and prefers to offer his prayers through the medium of the Virgin Mary and the saints.

RonBa, did your Pastor tell you this??
The word of God that you so speak of, was written by the catholic church?
I think the people who wrote the New Testament would best know and understand it, not someone who came along with his own ideas and traditions 500 years ago..

From this general principle of Evangelical freedom, and direct individual relationship of the believer to Christ, proceed the three fundamental doctrines of Protestantism — the absolute supremacy of (1) the Word, and of (2) the grace of Christ, and (3) the general priesthood of believers. . . ."

Here we go again with the Calvinist tradition of "Priesthood of all believers"
Again the church and it's holy tradition came before your so called word..
RonBa, do you think the bible fell out of the sky???


Protestants = Faith Alone, Scripture Alone, Priesthood of all believers traditions founded by Martin Luther, John Calvin, etc...

catholics = Faith and Works, Holy tradition and scripture, founded at the Pentacost on the teachings of Jesus Christ, taught through the apostles and the church fathers who wrote down the New Testament, did great councils to filter out herresies and misteachings, passed down to us through apostolic traditions to us, unscathed....

 

[kimber1]

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