That's correct, jckstraw. The way the rules are written, it's meant to be s no-debate forum.I'm confused - are Orthodox people not allowed to "debate" amongst themselves in the main forum?
Hello peregrinus2017, and welcome to CF and to TAW!I am not yet Orthodox, and I realize my thinking is probably not very clear, so please correct me if anything I say is wrong or incomplete.
If someone identifies themselves as homosexual or heterosexual it seems to me that they are identifying themselves with their passions. This is certainly sin, "missing the mark. " If you are in Christ how can you find your identity anywhere but in Him.
Confession certainly must involve repentance, but repentance is something that must be in all of life. Sickness and
suffering are in the world because of sin. So whether I suffer from lust or envy or anger, cancer or asthma or gout, or even if
by His grace I gain victory over my passions, in all things I must repent, turn to the Lord who is my salvation.
I am not yet Orthodox, and I realize my thinking is probably not very clear, so please correct me if anything I say is wrong or incomplete.
If someone identifies themselves as homosexual or heterosexual it seems to me that they are identifying themselves with their passions. This is certainly sin, "missing the mark. " If you are in Christ how can you find your identity anywhere but in Him.
Confession certainly must involve repentance, but repentance is something that must be in all of life. Sickness and
suffering are in the world because of sin. So whether I suffer from lust or envy or anger, cancer or asthma or gout, or even if
by His grace I gain victory over my passions, in all things I must repent, turn to the Lord who is my salvation.
I don't think interpreting saying somebody "is homosexual" as "identifying themselves with their passions" is in any way a de fide opinion among the Orthodox. Somebody can certainly be described as homosexual without implying in any way they find their identity in anything other than Christ.If someone identifies themselves as homosexual or heterosexual it seems to me that they are identifying themselves with their passions. This is certainly sin, "missing the mark. " If you are in Christ how can you find your identity anywhere but in Him.
I tend to agree that people can be described as something while still having their identity in Christ. I tried to ask this earlier. Is it wrong as an Orthodox Christian who is dependent on alcohol to call himself / herself an alcoholic - while still holding his or her identity in Christ? Can we use words like that as a description- but not an identity?I don't think interpreting saying somebody "is homosexual" as "identifying themselves with their passions" is in any way a de fide opinion among the Orthodox. Somebody can certainly be described as homosexual without implying in any way they find their identity in anything other than Christ.
There are some people who have a biological dependency and likelihood of being an alcoholic though. It isn't always cured - but rather is handled by abstaining. I'm not saying it is identical, but it is a result of the fall. Some have a serious tendency and likelihood to become an alcoholic if they indulge in any drink...which they don't know before that. They both can result in the passions. Having a predisposition to become an alcoholic is similar to having a predisposition to SSA. Again - not identical - but related.Exactly.
It's also bad policy to liken homosexuality to alcoholism or adultery for a variety of reasons. It's more like being left-handed. I mean, you can't be an alcoholic without ever drinking, the more you drink the more likely it is you will become an alcoholic, there are courses of action that both prevent or have a reasonable probability of curing alcoholism...
I wasn't likening it to all alcoholism - just trying to point out the biological predisposition to anything. We can agree to disagree on it being related. I still believe that a predisposition to anything is related though. It is not the predisposition to any passion that is the sin, but rather mentally or physically acting on it. Again, it is not identical.Right, exactly, in that way it is not like alcoholism and likening it to it is not helpful.
ETA: FTR, I don't believe the predisposition is sinful.
Agreed - though I believe through theosis - perfect purity is possible (eventually).FWIW, I think I should also say that I don't think the predisposition, or even the temptation, to any of the things I've talked about above, or anything related (in any degree) that I've left out - is in itself sinful.
As gzt said in the next post, our experience of sexuality is fallen.
I suspect there are MANY kinds of related crosses out there being borne. Perfect purity in all sexual thought as well as action must be difficult, might be unattainable. I'm not sure.
In response to Anastasia, I think we need to be careful because we need to distinguish between somebody being assaulted by these ideas and the act of assenting to or entertaining these ideas and acting on these ideas, as well as avoiding pejorative terms and ways of speaking about these people. Our experience of sexuality is fallen, all of us and all of it - and even some of the Fathers say that sex as such is post-fall. I think the difference is that, while it's certainly the case that any heterosexual is going to at various times in their life (more likely to be constant once mature) going to experience inappropriate sexual temptation, we seem to kind of ignore that when we start talking about homosexuality and, oddly, our insistence that we can't say somebody is gay but instead demand some convoluted way of talking about their experience makes them more "identified" by this difference.
Agreed - though I believe through theosis - perfect purity is possible (eventually).
I do however believe (and in this case I guess I am pointing out something similar to the illness thing - though I still don't fully understand) that confession is a place we should even bring up temptation, even if we haven't acted on it. In this case, it is our fallenness - which is missing the mark even if we don't act on it. So while it may not be a personal sin if we don't act on it, any temptation (equal across all temptations and passions) is something that we ask God to help us overcome.
I do believe it is possible to overcome temptation though through the Grace of God, the sacraments, confession and God-willing, theosis.
I've never heard of logismoi, so I need to look that up.Agreed. It's just I'm no Saint, and neither is anyone who has told me of their particular struggles, so in terms of most of us living life ... perfect and constant purity in both thought and action seems potentially unattainable. Maybe I need to read more from married Saints, but I doubt this particular question is addressed in writings. The very rare persons I've thought perhaps may have arrived to that ability were either unmarried or widowed by then. But then again, I'm imagining also the repelling of logismoi, so maybe even Saints on earth still struggle to a degree.
I agree with you. Except it occurs to me I might be thinking in a different way than is usually intended.
Does overcoming temptation mean simply not to act on it?
Or does it also mean not even to engage temptation, to "consider" perhaps, or imagine possibly doing it? Or does it mean the temptation doesn't even function AS temptation - easily dismissed. Or does it even mean that we never even become aware of any tendency toward the thought, that we never allow any logismoi or temptation even to enter?
I am not sure, but I think even the Saints still struggled with that last step at some times.
I've never heard of logismoi, so I need to look that up.
This is the idea I was referencing:
https://www.ancientfaith.com/specials/acquiring_the_mind_of_the_church/the_six_stages_of_temptation
That said, I think confession is for working on overcoming temptation as well as actual sins that we commit. Our temptations are often due to our fallenness, so we continue to work through them.
I don't believe being married is a barrier to purity or even theosis. Sexual intercourse for example within marriage is holy and ordained by God. Marriage is a way to work out our salvation.
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