Rocks have consciousness? Common Sense not needed? Evolutionism at any cost?

BobRyan

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BobRyan said:

God said He made the first human (Adam) directly from the dust of the ground
"Directly" is your addition to His word to make it more acceptable to you.
I read the text and believe it.

Gen 1:
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. ..31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

Gen 2:7 God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Gen 3: 19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust, And to dust you shall return.”

Ex 20: 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.


(Seriously - if we had to delete everything we were told on the previous page each time we turned the page of a biology text book - we would never learn a single thing about biology)
That is another addition you made to God's word. He didn't say that, either.
Believe as you wish... meanwhile I enjoy reading the actual text and noticing details
Why not just accept His word as it is
I was about to ask you that.
 
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BobRyan

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I believe exactly what Gen 1 says:

Genesis 1:11 KJV
11. And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

What brought forth the grass?
God did. He is the only PERSON in the text to be a "WHO" - How is this even a little confusing.

Try going to a barren planet Mars and saying to the ground "let mars bring forth grass" and see what happens. You cannot do that and have grass come up -- and I think we both know it.
Genesis 1:20 KJV
20. And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

What brought forth the sea creatures and air creatures?
We call Him "God"

Ex 20: 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

Ps 33: 6 By the word of the Lord the heavens were made,
And by the breath of His mouth all their host.
Ps 33: 9 For He spoke, and it was done;
He commanded, and it stood fast.

Gen 1:9 Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. 10 God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good. 11 Then God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them”; and it was so. 12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good. 13 There was evening and there was morning, a third day.

No evolution text would use such language to describe a NOT day - nor would they have plants appear a few million years before the Sun was made
Genesis 1:24 KJV
24. And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

What brought forth the living creature of the earth?

We call Him "God"

Ex 20: 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

Ps 33: 6 By the word of the Lord the heavens were made,
And by the breath of His mouth all their host.
Ps 33: 9 For He spoke, and it was done;
He commanded, and it stood fast.

Gen 1:9
23 There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.
24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind:... and God saw that it was good. 26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. ...31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

Gen 2:19 Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.

No evolution text would use such language to describe a NOT day - nor would they have plants appear a few million years before the Sun was made
God spoke words into the dirt and water of the earth
God's power alone takes barren dust and transforms it instantly into a horse in a single day.. from the dust of the ground.

No biology text makes such a statement

Try going to a barren planet Mars and saying to the ground "let mars bring forth a horse" and see what happens. You cannot do that and have a horse appear -- and I think we both know it.

=====================

In every instance the case for evolutionism's doctrine on origins must be made by deleting Bible details and the re-imagining the text.
 
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The Barbarian

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(Seriously - if we had to delete everything we were told on the previous page each time we turned the page of a biology text book - we would never learn a single thing about biology)
Guess how I know you haven't read much in the way of biology books.

I get that you want to add things to scripture, but you really should not add any words not actually there. Just accept it God's way.

And the "image" is in our minds and souls, not our physical shape. God doesn't look like a primate. As Jesus says, God is a spirit. And He tells us that a spirit has no body.
 
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BeyondET

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" The Idea That Everything From Spoons to Stones is Conscious -- is Gaining Academic Credibility

“If you think about consciousness long enough, you either become a panpsychist or you go into administration.”​


If you think that dust gas and rocks will eventually come up with a rabbit, a horse or Einstein given enough mass, time and chance interaction -- the congratulations! You are on the road to rocks-have-the-attribute of consciousness to pass on to what eventually evolves from them.

OR else you may believe the Bible account of an infinitely wise and powerful God - that creates, organizes, causes things to exist that did not exist before such that our own intelligence is not inherited from rocks, but is created by a far more intelligent being than ourselves.

Pick one.
Also is not good to present false doctrines like spoons and rocks are conscious. That is not gaining academic credibility. The authors title that you posted is totally misleading.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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God did. He is the only PERSON in the text to be a "WHO" - How is this even a little confusing.

Try going to a barren planet Mars and saying to the ground "let mars bring forth grass" and see what happens. You cannot do that and have grass come up -- and I think we both know it.

We call Him "God"

Ex 20: 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

Ps 33: 6 By the word of the Lord the heavens were made,
And by the breath of His mouth all their host.
Ps 33: 9 For He spoke, and it was done;
He commanded, and it stood fast.

Gen 1:9 Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. 10 God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good. 11 Then God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them”; and it was so. 12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good. 13 There was evening and there was morning, a third day.

No evolution text would use such language to describe a NOT day - nor would they have plants appear a few million years before the Sun was made


We call Him "God"

Ex 20: 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

Ps 33: 6 By the word of the Lord the heavens were made,
And by the breath of His mouth all their host.
Ps 33: 9 For He spoke, and it was done;
He commanded, and it stood fast.

Gen 1:9
23 There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.
24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind:... and God saw that it was good. 26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. ...31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

Gen 2:19 Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.

No evolution text would use such language to describe a NOT day - nor would they have plants appear a few million years before the Sun was made

God's power alone takes barren dust and transforms it instantly into a horse in a single day.. from the dust of the ground.

No biology text makes such a statement

Try going to a barren planet Mars and saying to the ground "let mars bring forth a horse" and see what happens. You cannot do that and have a horse appear -- and I think we both know it.

=====================

In every instance the case for evolutionism's doctrine on origins must be made by deleting Bible details and the re-imagining the text.
Well this is not really a theological question just reading comprehension.

To restate:
Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth..."
What brought forth the life? What did God tell to do it?
Yes God empowered it to bring forth the life, but grammatically and logically, what exactly brought forth the life?

If I owned a widget factory and someone asked me what I did, I would say I make widgets. When more technically it is my workers and my factory that do the actual manufacturing of the widgets.
If I say to my employees, "let the employees make the widgets," who actually makes the widgets? It is not a trick. No need to change words or twist meanings. Just read what it says and thank God for His wisdom and power.
God created a life machine, and He empowered it to bring forth life. He spoke words into the earth and the water and those words enabled the earth and water to do what He commanded. His word does not return to Him void. It is no different from Jesus speaking to the fig tree and having it dry up from the roots. Note that tree did not dry up all at once. It took all night to do it. It is OK to say what the word says. "God told the earth to bring forth life..." and it did!
 
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BobRyan

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I believe exactly what Gen 1 says:

Genesis 1:11 KJV
11. And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

What brought forth the grass?
God did. He is the only PERSON in the text to be a "WHO" - How is this even a little confusing.

Try going to a barren planet Mars and saying to the ground "let mars bring forth grass" and see what happens. You cannot do that and have grass come up -- and I think we both know it.
Genesis 1:20 KJV
20. And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

What brought forth the sea creatures and air creatures?
We call Him "God"

Ex 20: 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

Ps 33: 6 By the word of the Lord the heavens were made,
And by the breath of His mouth all their host.
Ps 33: 9 For He spoke, and it was done;
He commanded, and it stood fast.

Gen 1:9 Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. 10 God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good. 11 Then God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them”; and it was so. 12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good. 13 There was evening and there was morning, a third day.

No evolution text would use such language to describe a NOT day - nor would they have plants appear a few million years before the Sun was made
Genesis 1:24 KJV
24. And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

What brought forth the living creature of the earth?

We call Him "God"

Ex 20: 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

Ps 33: 6 By the word of the Lord the heavens were made,
And by the breath of His mouth all their host.
Ps 33: 9 For He spoke, and it was done;
He commanded, and it stood fast.

Gen 1:9
23 There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.
24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind:... and God saw that it was good. 26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. ...31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

Gen 2:19 Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.

No evolution text would use such language to describe a NOT day - nor would they have plants appear a few million years before the Sun was made
God spoke words into the dirt and water of the earth
God's power alone takes barren dust and transforms it instantly into a horse in a single day.. from the dust of the ground.

No biology text makes such a statement

Try going to a barren planet Mars and saying to the ground "let mars bring forth a horse" and see what happens. You cannot do that and have a horse appear -- and I think we both know it.

=====================

In every instance the case for evolutionism's doctrine on origins must be made by deleting Bible details and the re-imagining the text.
Well this is not really a theological question just reading comprehension.

hmm - I tend to agree.


To restate:
Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth..."
What brought forth the life? What did God tell to do it?
Yes God empowered it to bring forth the life,
I can "empower a person" to do something. But I cannot "empower" dust to do things as if the dust were saying "sorry can't do that - I have not been empowered" - furthermore nothing in dust can "take other dust and tansform it into tissue of a horse then link it all up into a living horse".

It would be like saying "I turned dust into God so it could transform dust into a horse".

It is not logical
If I owned a widget factory and someone asked me what I did, I would say I make widgets. When more technically it is my workers and my factory that do the actual manufacturing of the widgets.
But it is not the sand in the cement that does it and it is not the Iron Ore in the steel that does it. You keep missing the point
If I say to my employees, "let the employees make the widgets,"
Employees that already have the ability to do something can be given "permission" or "given authority" to do something but you can't give that power "to their shoe laces" because shoe laces not only lacked the authority/permission - they also lacked the ability and sentient capacity
God created a life machine, and He empowered it to bring forth life
Nope.

God took dust and from dust alone God made the horse, the man, the rabbit. As the text says - and he did it in a single rotation of the planet -- one "evening and morning"
 
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BobRyan

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Also is not good to present false doctrines like spoons and rocks are conscious. That is not gaining academic credibility. The authors title that you posted is totally misleading.
I posted the link to the entire article -- not just the title.... as it turns out.
 
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stevevw

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" The Idea That Everything From Spoons to Stones is Conscious -- is Gaining Academic Credibility

“If you think about consciousness long enough, you either become a panpsychist or you go into administration.”​


If you think that dust gas and rocks will eventually come up with a rabbit, a horse or Einstein given enough mass, time and chance interaction -- the congratulations! You are on the road to rocks-have-the-attribute of consciousness to pass on to what eventually evolves from them.

OR else you may believe the Bible account of an infinitely wise and powerful God - that creates, organizes, causes things to exist that did not exist before such that our own intelligence is not inherited from rocks, but is created by a far more intelligent being than ourselves.

Pick one.
I don't think that its a case of evolution at any cost if consciousness is fundemental. In fact it would be anti evolutionary as this would imply some teleology within existence. I don't think rocks are conscious like humans but maybe have a rudementary form of consciousness in that the basic elements of existence are consitituted by a certain state of being where everything has a place and part in the whole.

Like cells are geared towards regeneration of life. They are sort of aware of their surroundings in a very rudementary way which is programmed to life. Plants are the same in that I don't think they live in isolation from their environment. Maybe like some force that is present within the environment where living things communicate with each other and effect each other. We know that this is the case through how living things can change and adapt according to their environment through reciporical relationships with other living things.

The Bible mentions in Romans 8: 21-22 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time.

So it seems creation exists in some state of decay as opposed to a form of existence that conatins Gods spirit and not just some dead completely unconscious existence.

But I think this is very basic and not like human consciousness. I think there may be a fundemental consciousness throughout the universe or existence which permeates everything. But there are also conscious humans as a result and being made in Gods image are able to have a higher consciousness and therefore dominion over all other living things.
 
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BobRyan

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I don't think that its a case of evolution at any cost if consciousness is fundemental. In fact it would be anti evolutionary as this would imply some teleology within existence. I don't think rocks are conscious like humans but maybe have a rudementary form of consciousness in that the basic elements of existence are consitituted by a certain state of being where everything has a place and part in the whole.
Are you saying that "the state of being" is a form of consciousness? So then a container of table salt knows that it is in a state of being? It seems to me that the inanimate state of being precludes any form of consciousness, so then no ability to know anything at all.
 
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BeyondET

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I posted the link to the entire article -- not just the title.... as it turns out.
Yes and I read the title of the article and it didn't line up with what is said in the article.

It was probably an exaggeration from the author.
 
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The Barbarian

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Well this is not really a theological question just reading comprehension.

To restate:
Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth..."
What brought forth the life? What did God tell to do it?
Yes God empowered it to bring forth the life, but grammatically and logically, what exactly brought forth the life?
Today's winner.
 
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BeyondET

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I don't think that its a case of evolution at any cost if consciousness is fundemental. In fact it would be anti evolutionary as this would imply some teleology within existence. I don't think rocks are conscious like humans but maybe have a rudementary form of consciousness in that the basic elements of existence are consitituted by a certain state of being where everything has a place and part in the whole.

Like cells are geared towards regeneration of life. They are sort of aware of their surroundings in a very rudementary way which is programmed to life. Plants are the same in that I don't think they live in isolation from their environment. Maybe like some force that is present within the environment where living things communicate with each other and effect each other. We know that this is the case through how living things can change and adapt according to their environment through reciporical relationships with other living things.

The Bible mentions in Romans 8: 21-22 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time.

So it seems creation exists in some state of decay as opposed to a form of existence that conatins Gods spirit and not just some dead completely unconscious existence.

But I think this is very basic and not like human consciousness. I think there may be a fundemental consciousness throughout the universe or existence which permeates everything. But there are also conscious humans as a result and being made in Gods image are able to have a higher consciousness and therefore dominion over all other living things.
Slime mold is a example of a form consciousness being aware of its surroundings.
 
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BobRyan

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Yes and I read the title of the article and it didn't line up with what is said in the article.

It was probably an exaggeration from the author.

Yes I read the article and it said exactly what the title claims ... like this for starters..

=========================

"Consciousness permeates reality. Rather than being just a unique feature of human subjective experience, it’s the foundation of the universe, present in every particle and all physical matter.

"This sounds like easily-dismissible bunkum, but as traditional attempts to explain consciousness continue to fail, the “panpsychist” view is increasingly being taken seriously by credible philosophers, neuroscientists, and physicists, including figures such as neuroscientist Christof Koch and physicist Roger Penrose...."

in an article Titled: "The Idea That Everything From Spoons to Stones is Conscious is Gaining Academic Credibility"

This is not the hard part.

In don't agree that the consciousness idea actually makes sense - but they often don't now days when it comes to evolution and cosmology. As James Webb reminds us every month or so.
 
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Yes I read the article and it said exactly what the title claims ... like this for starters..

=========================

"Consciousness permeates reality. Rather than being just a unique feature of human subjective experience, it’s the foundation of the universe, present in every particle and all physical matter.

"This sounds like easily-dismissible bunkum, but as traditional attempts to explain consciousness continue to fail, the “panpsychist” view is increasingly being taken seriously by credible philosophers, neuroscientists, and physicists, including figures such as neuroscientist Christof Koch and physicist Roger Penrose...."

in an article Titled: "The Idea That Everything From Spoons to Stones is Conscious is Gaining Academic Credibility"

This is not the hard part.

In don't agree that the consciousness idea actually makes sense - but they often don't now days when it comes to evolution and cosmology. As James Webb reminds us every month or so.
I see now every particle and all physical matter like a tooth pick, I apologize.

that sounds bazaar
 
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Reacting to chemical stimuli is not the same thing as consciousness. That is oversimplification.
It's not reacting to chemical stimuli. They only placed down some food, the slime did the rest.

If your hungry and someone places a sandwich infront of you. You will reach for it.
 
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It's not reacting to chemical stimuli. They only placed down some food, the slime did the rest.

If your hungry and someone places a sandwich infront of you. You will reach for it.
Especially if it is a Jersey Mike done "Mikes Way!"
Yummmm now there's a samidge!
 
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And the "image" is in our minds and souls, not our physical shape. God doesn't look like a primate. As Jesus says, God is a spirit. And He tells us that a spirit has no body.
Sleep is a interesting human behavior even Adam did it, dopamine and serotonin I wouldn't think is part of a spirit. Certainly God doesn't sleep.

Though the study of friut flies has had some insightful findings on emotions since they produce similar chemicals as humans.
 
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