Robin Hood: Good Guy or Bad Guy?

[lismore]

I agree that the rich (which includes you and me) should share generously with the poor. But, there is a huge difference between asking a person to willingly share their resources and stealing from that person.

I thought Robin hood asked them to share with the poor. Of course he was pointing an arrow at the rich fella's head

 

[mzungu]

I thought Robin hood asked them to share with the poor. Of course he was pointing an arrow at the rich fella's head

And rightly so! There would not be a need for Robin Hoods if society was just and balanced. If you have filthy rich people then you will have poor as money is a finite thing and in order for one to have more then someone else has to have less!

A society comprised strictly of the middle class may have differences in wealth status but there will be no poor and certainly no filthy rich.

We need more arrows pointing at the heads of the filthy rich!

 

[Catherineanne]

So, to direct that to my question. Is that tax code immoral in that it unjustly taxes you? Or, is it immoral in that it keeps you from providing for the basic life needs of your family? If your numbers are right, I would say that both are true. In the case of the latter, disobedience is an obligation. In the case of the former, the issue is more debatable, but one could argue that civil disobedience would not be immoral.

I am afraid the situation in Greece is not that simple.

The alternative they face is to be forced to leave the EU, and to fall into national bankruptcy, and a reversion to effective third world status.

Given such an alternative, punitive taxation is the soft option.

I would also say that the rest of Europe ought to step up and help Greece as much as possible, if it were not the case that several other countries are heading in the same direction, and we could all be pulled down by it. And by all, I mean the whole world econony.

 

[Catherineanne]

Our Government has passed taxation laws that in many cases the tax exceeds the income. An example: If you are unemployed, own your house, own a car, and have 1 child then you have to pay 4,000 Euros Tax per year. This ammount increases the more children you have. Demographically more people die than are born in Greece yet children are considered luxury goods by the Government. Right now I have to pay taxes (over 40 different taxes) that literally exceed my income. If you own a house then you have to pay all manner of taxes every year and one of the taxes they want to add this year is you pay tax on the house you live in according to how much money you would rent it for. I earn 20,000 Euros per year and I have to pay this year 22,500 Euros!

Now tell me if I will be wrong to refuse to pay all these taxes that I cannot afford to pay. By the way the rich have tax breaks and the more you earn the less taxes you pay.

Ever since these laws came into effect we have had unemployment rise from 6% to over 35% (over 60% unemployed in the under 30 age group).

Also if you owe the government 300 + Euros you go to jail!

60 % of the electricity bill is comprised of tax and on top of that they have increased the electricity bill by 48% in two years.

All this with a Right wing Government!

Time to oil the shotgun!

Right, because anarchy is always the answer to civilised government.

I have sympathy for Greece and its people, and if those taxes were brought into the UK I would be appalled, but you really have to consider your alternatives.

Greece has lived a first world life on a second world income. Either it sorts out its finances or else it will be far, far worse off in future. This is nothing to do with the government; left or right. It effectively has no choice because the EU is setting the terms by which Greece can remain a member.

 

[Catherineanne]

In my opinion, if the story is about an illegitimate ruler stealing money from the poor, and in comes old Robin to take the money back and give it back to its original owners, then sure Robin's an okay guy. But, if the story is about old Robin stealing from the rich, because they are rich, and giving to the poor, because they are poor, then I would not hold the same opinion of him.

Indeed not. At the end of the main part of the story Robin has his lands and title restored to him by the rightful King. He does not then give away his land to the poor; he works as a good landlord and master, looking after those entrusted to his care; the workers and tenants on his estate.

The morality of the tale is not a simplistic one; as I said above the message is that it is very rare to combine altruism with money and power. When these are combined then everyone gains from it; rich and poor alike. When they are not, the poor suffer the most, because they are hammered on one side by poverty, on the other by oppression.

 

[mzungu]

I am afraid the situation in Greece is not that simple.

The alternative they face is to be forced to leave the EU, and to fall into national bankruptcy, and a reversion to effective third world status.

Given such an alternative, punitive taxation is the soft option.

I would also say that the rest of Europe ought to step up and help Greece as much as possible, if it were not the case that several other countries are heading in the same direction, and we could all be pulled down by it. And by all, I mean the whole world econony.

This is true! The threat they used on us that we will leave the Eurozone if we do not apply the austerity measures was for securing votes in the election! We cannot leave the Eurozone as the repercussions will be extreme for the rest of the Eurozone countries.
FACTS: Parents pay more taxes the more children they have.
Taxation is not based on income but on property owned; An unemployed person who owns his house, has a car and a child will have to pay 4,000 Euros tax even though he has no income. The popular demand is that the rich who have their money in offshore banks and Swiss banks (calculated to be more than our Debt 400 billion Euros)must pay taxes on that money that was exported for purely tax evasion reasons.
Unemployment: Young people 60%
Unemployment: 30% officially (the real figure is way above since people who closed their shop or business are not considered unemployed and anyone working at least 1 hour per week is considered employed).
The rich are taxed less than the poor.
The list goes on and on.
The Austerity measures are being imposed upon us simply because the corporations want to buy the state owned companies for next to nothing. Our state utility company earned 1.5 billion Euros per year profit; Now it is making a loss and it is a monopoly? They want to privatise it for peanuts.
A state owned bank worth 5 Billion in assets was sold to a private bank for 95 million!!!!
We have large untapped natural gas reserves and they want that too!
The private banks were bailed out with OUR money and yet the banks refuse to lend money to shops and businesses in order to help them become viable.

If there is a God then he must give us AK47s so we may start the revolution and hang all the traitorous politicians that have destroyed our country. Yesterday they voted laws that essentially remove our sovereignty.
We are on the verge of a revolution and by God they will pay!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYTyluv4Gws

 

[mzungu]

United Nations News Centre - Greek austerity measures could violate human rights, UN expert says

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/02/euro-greece-barter-poverty-crisis

 

[Catherineanne]

United Nations News Centre - Greek austerity measures could violate human rights, UN expert says

Euros discarded as impoverished Greeks resort to bartering | World news | guardian.co.uk

Greece is not the only nation facing a poverty crisis. It is not the case that some countries in Europe are fine, and Greece is not. The UK is also facing punitive cuts, very often attacking the weakest and most defenceless members of society. Our government is waging a campaign against disabled people because disability benefits cost too much. It is carrying out one wave of cuts after another, each time reducing those who are eligible or receiving help by as much as 20%. These are not good times.

I understand that Greece is facing far worse at present, and I am not unsympathetic; I love Greece very much, and the Greeks themselves are lovely people; very hospitable, very devout, very loving and generous. They simply do not deserve the life they now face; not by any means. The country has not been well managed, and it has lived beyond its means. But it is also being used as something of a scapegoat, I think, and deserves better. Greece did not cause the banking crisis, but in many ways it is paying the cost of it.

I do not know what the answer is, except that anarchy is never the right response, and there has to be a way to find a democratic way forward. However, I fear that another scenario is more likely; that Greece will default on its debt, leave the EU, and then face a new army led dictatorship. This is what has happened before, and I think many people will welcome it, because they will revert to what is familiar and feels safe.

I hope I am wrong.

 

[Catherineanne]

If there is a God then he must give us AK47s so we may start the revolution and hang all the traitorous politicians that have destroyed our country. Yesterday they voted laws that essentially remove our sovereignty.
We are on the verge of a revolution and by God they will pay!

It may be too late to convince you, but really God will NOT have anything to do with what you describe. Your politicians have not destroyed your country; they are trying to save it, to keep it in the EU.

Revolution is not the answer, anarchy is not the answer. Ordinary people will lose in every direction, and the end result will be martial law. Make no mistake, the army will not allow anarchy; it will take over, and you will end up being governed by a General who will make himself Dictator.

As long as Greece has untapped natural gas reserves then it has bargaining power, but untapped is not actual. You need actuality, not dreams of affluence for the future.

The choice is, the EU or Dictatorship. Your politicians are trying to hold onto the former, rather than risk the latter. They are trying to protect your country and your freedom.

It is your choice, and that of your fellow countrymen and women. What future does Greece deserve?

 

[mzungu]

It may be too late to convince you, but really God will NOT have anything to do with what you describe. Your politicians have not destroyed your country; they are trying to save it, to keep it in the EU.

Revolution is not the answer, anarchy is not the answer. Ordinary people will lose in every direction, and the end result will be martial law. Make no mistake, the army will not allow anarchy; it will take over, and you will end up being governed by a General who will make himself Dictator.

As long as Greece has untapped natural gas reserves then it has bargaining power, but untapped is not actual. You need actuality, not dreams of affluence for the future.

The choice is, the EU or Dictatorship. Your politicians are trying to hold onto the former, rather than risk the latter. They are trying to protect your country and your freedom.

It is your choice, and that of your fellow countrymen and women. What future does Greece deserve?

Too late; The Government has relinquished the rights to foreign companies regarding the natural gas. We do not want a dictatorship and we have no bargaining power since our politicians are "Yes men". If remaining in the EU means that the Greek people will revert to total poverty then We want nothing to do with the EU. I and most Greeks are in favour of remaining in the EU but not at the cost of our sovereignty and the welfare of the people.

Our politicians are not trying to save the country; They are passing laws that literally are killing the middle class while allowing the rich to go scot free.

I live here and am devastated that in 2012 we had over 3,500 SUICIDES due to the economic hardship. Suicides were extremely rare in Greece. Also it used to be that in Greece, the unemployed were embarrassed when they were unemployed. Now we have homeless families feeding from rubbish bins. Such things were unknown.

As for living beyond our means? All these years we had higher prices and lower wages and worked more hours than our EU counterparts. When politicians are found with offshore bank accounts numbering in the hundreds of million and in some cases billions then who destroyed the economy? Siemens made billions with the olympics by bribing the politicians in order to secure multi billion Euro contracts. Germany made a killing by selling us arms at twice the price simply by bribing the Minister of defence in order to secure sales worth billions. We are a country with a population that of the City of London yet we have armed forces that can only be justified by countries with a tenfold population.

We the ordinary people did not cause this country to go bankrupt. we have 5 families that basically own all the media in this country and always get the large contracts that they charge double the price.

I am not an anarchist, far from it; I like most people here have nothing to feed their children let alone pay the 40+ new taxes they have imposed upon us while slashing pensions and salaries by 60%.

I disagree that armed revolt is wrong. It is our only choice! We have nothing else to loose. Right now both left wing and right wing are willing to fight side by side to rid this country of the traitorous politicians.

It is the Government that should fear the people and not the other way round.

If you own a Ferrari that is less than 10 years old you will pay less taxes than if you own a 10 year old family car. Enough is enough.

Catastroika (English Subtitles) - YouTube

Also watch this video (it has English subtitles) on how Germany profiteered from the Greek crisis. The reportage is from a German state TV channel) 2012_03_23-07_30-NET_ ΤΟ ΠΑΡΑΜΥΘΙ ΤΩΝ ΓΕΡΜΑΝΩΝ ΧΟΡΗΓΩΝ.avi - YouTube

Also this: Greek Crisis Ground Zero - YouTube

 

[mzungu]

We need a Robin Hood NOW:

One World One Revolution - YouTube

 

[TheyCallMeDave]

Would you therefore not have agreed with sheltering Jews in Nazi Germany as that was against their law - 'lawfully' surely can't be defined by a corrupt and evil govt that calls good things illegal and cruelty, prejudice and hatred good and lawful. I work in the criminal justice system and think a lot about such issues (as well as having a particular interest in Christian resistance to Nazism in WW2) so btw I am not trolling or being provocative.
Your own country rebelled against my country and didn't do things civilly - in my own country a great Christian (Oliver Cromwell) stood against the tyranny of the monarchy

'You see...many people thruout history have done things even in the NAME of God as 'justification' for implementing certain actions based on what they deem correct to do...but that does not mean they are OF God ; and therein lies the difference.' Your view of course - Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Knox might take a different view.

I certainly believe, based on biblical standards, that we should ALWAYS provide shelter , basic necessities, and protection to ALL innocent Parties who are being persecuted based on their race or national orgin ...and especially with the most innocent and defenseless developing unborn Human Being that 'Mom' desires to murder based on sexual-hedonistic entitlement aka: Infanticide .

Lastly what a Country or Group does that is uncivil, unethical, immoral to Another...doesnt define the character/nature/or Person of God ; such abberrant actions only serve to show that they run counter to the Creator which a Country or majority Populace may claim to believe in and follow.

 

[Bethesda]

I certainly believe, based on biblical standards, that we should ALWAYS provide shelter , basic necessities, and protection to ALL innocent Parties who are being persecuted based on their race or national orgin ...and especially with the most innocent and defenseless developing unborn Human Being that 'Mom' desires to murder based on sexual-hedonistic entitlement aka: Infanticide .

Lastly what a Country or Group does that is uncivil, unethical, immoral to Another...doesnt define the character/nature/or Person of God ; such abberrant actions only serve to show that they run counter to the Creator which a Country or majority Populace may claim to believe in and follow.

well we agree on that!