Roberts Liardon

I remember seeing RL as a teenager. At college he was seeing spirits that were opressing people and dealing with them. I believe he was bought up in a third generation spirit filled family being sung to in tongues while in the womb -what better start in life could that give you?
I saw a tape of him at 19 adressing a mass of AOG pastors at a conference -being recognised there in a prophetic sense. I remember seeing him literally chastising them for something or other-I thought Glory !!! to do that when you are just 19 it would have to be God.

repeat post

As to the situation of people dying despite people of faith praying I remeber once being called to pray for somebody dying of cancer in hospital. The room was filled with rellies and my prayer came out so wishy washy (for fear of offending people) that I worried about it all the ay home. That night I had the most vivid dream of the situation I was in except I was looking on as Jesus Himself filled the place I was in.
First He narrowed down who had faith for healing and sent verybody else out. (It only left the guy I came with)
Next He turned to the patient and hollered and I mean hollered !! When the Bible says that Jesus spoke with a loud voice I think this is what it means.
There was a flurry of activity outside -in the dream I could hear them saying- "There is a madman in there -quick get the security"
Minutes passed as Jesus continued to command cancer to leave him -He just simply commanded it as if HE was not going to get quiet until it happened.
Now when the security, doctors, nurses and rellies finally swarmed back into the room the "patient was sitting up demanding an orange drink.
I was so startled myself I awoke and looked at the clock- 4 am -I prayed the rest of the morning
Next day I got a phone called -Our man had died -I said what time -The answer was 4 am
It was then that I realized that I would never blame God for taking anybody -when it comes to healing the buck stops with us.
Remember Jesus saying -this type come out with prayer and fasting -what type of fasting -40 days? Do we believe God can sustain us for 40 days? -have you got that much faith in God ?-I know this -the devil knows if you have or not .
Few realize that to be discipled effectively and to be able to do some of the real faith stuff we need to show ourselves approved in some of the tough stuff as well -Jesus never promised it would be easy.

TasManOfGod said:

As to the situation of people dying despite people of faith praying I remeber once being called to pray for somebody dying of cancer in hospital. The room was filled with rellies and my prayer came out so wishy washy (for fear of offending people) that I worried about it all the ay home. That night I had the most vivid dream of the situation I was in except I was looking on as Jesus Himself filled the place I was in.
First He narrowed down who had faith for healing and sent verybody else out. (It only left the guy I came with)
Next He turned to the patient and hollered and I mean hollered !! When the Bible says that Jesus spoke with a loud voice I think this is what it means.
There was a flurry of activity outside -in the dream I could hear them saying- "There is a madman in there -quick get the security"
Minutes passed as Jesus continued to command cancer to leave him -He just simply commanded it as if HE was not going to get quiet until it happened.
Now when the security, doctors, nurses and rellies finally swarmed back into the room the "patient was sitting up demanding an orange drink.
I was so startled myself I awoke and looked at the clock- 4 am -I prayed the rest of the morning
Next day I got a phone called -Our man had died -I said what time -The answer was 4 am
It was then that I realized that I would never blame God for taking anybody -when it comes to healing the buck stops with us.
Remember Jesus saying -this type come out with prayer and fasting -what type of fasting -40 days? Do we believe God can sustain us for 40 days? -have you got that much faith in God ?-I know this -the devil knows if you have or not .
Few realize that to be discipled effectively and to be able to do some of the real faith stuff we need to show ourselves approved in some of the tough stuff as well -Jesus never promised it would be easy.

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Matthew 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

I remember Bob Yandian telling a story one time about a couple where the wife had cancer and by all accounts everyone, including her, was believing for her healing. She died and everyone wondered why because she was this strong Christian. Come to find out later, she had confided in a friend that even though she was confessing and being strong for her family member, she really wanted to go on and be with Jesus. We have free will in those circumstances too. You never know what is in someone's heart.

Another thing that I believe people need to learn to do is to get to the root of the problem. We so often pray for the symptom and believe for relief of the symptom instead of finding out what the real problem is. We stand in faith for healing and quote all the scriptures, we have hands laid on us and do all the things we think we should do, but we never ask God what He wants us to do. We don't ask Him what the root of the problem is so we can pray for the root. We don't ask Him which scriptures to stand on. We don't ask Him if He wants us to have hands laid on us or if we should stand in faith on our own or if we should go to a doctor. We totally leave Him out of the process when we should be saying to Him "this is what Your word says, now which way do You want me to do it".

That's when it all began to make sense too. Jesus said He only did what He saw the Father do. That's why sometimes He spoke to people for healing, or made mud, or spit. And look at the things Smith Wigglesworth did. Today, we usually only lay hands on people because that's the only "acceptable" form people will allow.

Like others, I have been standing in faith for an "incurable" disease for several years with little progress. Despite what some WOF Christians say, I know I have faith. I know I have been doing everything right - no sin, no unforgiveness etc, yet I can almost feel the judgment from other Christians. Anyway, once I began asking God what the root of the problem was and how He wanted me to handled it, I was surprised at the answers I recieved. They were not what I thought they would be. It was only then that I began seeing significant progress.

I have carried this same thing into the rest of my prayer life - asking God the root of the problem, what verses He wants me to stand on, etc. and it has made all the difference. For the first time ever, I feel like I can pray and know that I am asking the right question so I can receive real results.

lyonguard said:

Another thing that I believe people need to learn to do is to get to the root of the problem. ..........I have carried this same thing into the rest of my prayer life - asking God the root of the problem, what verses He wants me to stand on, etc. and it has made all the difference. For the first time ever, I feel like I can pray and know that I am asking the right question so I can receive real results.

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This is exactly what I was speaking about when I said we lack knowledge......

I started praying this way, too, Lyonguard. Get me to the root! Otherwise we are just putting bandaids on everything....when we really need a scalpel.

Godown said:

Please point out to me where I judged the mother of the girl.

Even if she or others were ultimately responsible for failing to be the conduits by which God wanted to heal the little girl, doesn't mean they were at fault, as in, they were in sin. Being in error and being in sin can be two different things although the results are often similar.

The Word is true and that means that the only other possibility for failure is human.

I ask you to go back and tell me which of my points you specifically disagree with and why, because if my points are correct, that only leaves one other possibility, which is human error.

You seem to be judging the Word through the experience of others rather that believing what God says over your human reasoning and comparisons. Your level of faith has nothing to do with the Truth of God's Word, only the Truth you see in His Word.

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By and large I agree with your points. However, I wouldn't necessarily characterize "human error" as necessarily being the cause for such a girl's death.

If, hypothetically, the little girl saw a glimpse of Heaven and wanted to go there, would that be "human error"?

Many years ago, I heard a powerful testimony on the 700 Club about a girl who got severely injured in an home elevator accident. She actually died and went to Heaven. When she sat on Jesus' lap, the Lord asked her, "Would you like to stay here, or do you want to go back to your parents?" She replied, "I want to go back with my parents." And so she came back.

I find it altogether plausible that God would ask the girl who died what she wanted, and that the girl may well have said, "I want to stay with you." If that is true, then who are we to say that "human error" caused her death?

As to the subject of being judgmental, my point is that I am not going to say XYZ person didn't get their prayers answered because they lacked faith. Because I don't want my child to ever suffer because I inadvertantly set a higher standard for faith than was needed.

If I say that XYZ's parents needed more faith, then I am saying that I, too, would need that same level of faith to move God on behalf of my child. (The same measure by which I judge others is the same measure by which I will be judged.)

If that particular level is, in fact, higher than the level of faith that I would have otherwise needed had I kept my mouth shut, then my judgmental attitude would undermine my own faith. Since I do not wish to take that chance, I will keep my own counsel about what is in the heart of person who has lost their child.

By and large I agree with your points. However, I wouldn't necessarily characterize "human error" as necessarily being the cause for such a girl's death.

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Really. I guess that Adam's error had nothing to do with the child being born in sin or being sick.

If, hypothetically, the little girl saw a glimpse of Heaven and wanted to go there, would that be "human error"?

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I see this as God's second best, at best.

She hadn't gone to Heaven until she died. So you don't think that people didn't have anything to do with her failing to be healed?

You are called to make righteous judgment in accordance with the Word. Nothing will happen to you if you see a situation as God sees it.

Faith merely equals confidence, in other words, you increase your confidence until you actually believe then you receive. People don't get their prayers answered because they ask amiss or they didn't believe. Jesus said that we receive what we believe. He made no exception for this so why should we?

I think there are a number of my points you absolutely disagree with. Like I said, it appears as if you are trying to judge God's Word by examining how it lines up with various situation in life rather that judging those situations by what the Word has to say.

Godown said:

Really. I guess that Adam's error had nothing to do with the child being born in sin or being sick.

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Adam's error may well have had something to do with her being sick, but the fall was not the proximate cause of her death. For if it were, then we all would have died of the same malady.

To bring the fall into this discussion is like saying Abraham Lincoln died because Junius Brutus Booth, Sr. and Mary Ann Holmes decided to fornicate in 1837. Yes, but for their decision to "shack up", the future assassin of the 16th President would have never been born. But then again, I think there were more proximate reasons than that.

I see this as God's second best, at best

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Hmmm...

Living on a fallen planet with wars, pestilences and diseases is God's first best.... BUT

Living with Jesus in Heaven where the streets are paved in pure gold and where there is no crying or pain or suffering is God's second best.

Perhaps you may wish to reconsider.

She hadn't gone to Heaven until she died. So you don't think that people didn't have anything to do with her failing to be healed?

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Are you sure about that? I have a close family member who went to Heaven and he wasn't dead. (OK, he was mighty close, but technically he wasn't dead.)

Since I do not know what she saw or didn't see before she died, I cannot say that human failure caused her death. Because if she wanted to go to Heaven, then her decision to go home would have been the superceeding, intervening cause.

You are called to make righteous judgment in accordance with the Word. Nothing will happen to you if you see a situation as God sees it.

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But seeing a situation as God sees it, and seeing a situation as we think God sees it, are two different things.

The Jews understood the Word better than we do, but still they formed a theology that didn't take into consideration the possiblity that their Messiah would be born in a manger and die on a Roman cross.

Even today, we don't understand everything in the Bible. Take eschatology. Many Christians believe that the Book of Revelation deals with 1st Century issues; others beleive that it deals with the distant future. Of those who believe that the Book of Revelation pertains to future events, some have a postmillenial view, while others are premillenial. Of those who are premillenial, many believe in a pretribulational rapture; some are midtribulational; some are posttribulational.

Just because we know the Bible doesn't mean we know exactly what the Bible means 100% of the time.

Are you absolutely positive that you see this situation completely and unequivocably like God sees it?

Faith merely equals confidence, in other words, you increase your confidence until you actually believe then you receive.

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I'm sorry, but that statement is not scriptural. Faith is belief. Faith is not the confidence that precedes belief.

Belief does not come from increased confidence. Belief comes when God gives you a spontaneous promise directly into your spirit. When you have that personal promise from God, then you have confidence that God will do what He has said.

People don't get their prayers answered because they ask amiss or they didn't believe. Jesus said that we receive what we believe. He made no exception for this so why should we?

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He did make one exception. "What things so ever ye desire..." If you don't desire something, you can hardly expect God to give it to you.

Obviously, the parents desired for the child to live. But do we know for sure that the child desired to live?

If she desired to go home, and if she prayed to God in faith to go home, then what is God to do?

I think there are a number of my points you absolutely disagree with. Like I said, it appears as if you are trying to judge God's Word by examining how it lines up with various situation in life rather that judging those situations by what the Word has to say.

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I want to bring your attention to a certain passage in the Book of James, chapter 4, verse 11.

Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it​

Now, I realize that I am about to upset the applecart, but are you not judging your brother and sister (i.e the parents of this little girl)? Are you not saying that the death of their child is ipso facto proof that their faith failed? Is this not what you refer to as being "righteous judgment in accordance with the Word?"

Well, by judging them, the Bible says that you are the one who is judging the Word, not me.

Adam's error may well have had something to do with her being sick, but the fall was not the proximate cause of her death. For if it were, then we all would have died of the same malady.

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She wouldn't be suffering death at all if it was not for Adam. The proximate cause of death was ushered into humanity by Adam, was paid for by Jesus and needlessly paid for again by the child. Jesus suffered this sickness so the child wouldn't have to, or do you think Jesus didn't suffer this particular sickness?

To bring the fall into this discussion is like saying Abraham Lincoln died because Junius Brutus Booth, Sr. and Mary Ann Holmes decided to fornicate in 1837. Yes, but for their decision to "shack up", the future assassin of the 16th President would have never been born. But then again, I think there were more proximate reasons than that.

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Nonsense. The point was that man's conduct was very much at the bottom of the child's death.

Hmmm...

Living on a fallen planet with wars, pestilences and diseases is God's first best.... BUT

Living with Jesus in Heaven where the streets are paved in pure gold and where there is no crying or pain or suffering is God's second best.

Perhaps you may wish to reconsider.

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Perhaps you may consider what Jesus sacrificed for us so we would live free from sickness in the here and now. Perhaps you'd like to consider that by your theory, Jesus is a receptor of persons in that he wants some in heaven early so they don't have to run the race the rest of us have to run here.

Are you sure about that? I have a close family member who went to Heaven and he wasn't dead. (OK, he was mighty close, but technically he wasn't dead.)

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So you are saying that she went to heaven while she was yet alive in her body and decided to stay. I'm sure as a WOFer, you have scripture to support this.

Since I do not know what she saw or didn't see before she died, I cannot say that human failure caused her death. Because if she wanted to go to Heaven, then her decision to go home would have been the superceeding, intervening cause.

Your personal knowledge of thesituation is a moote point. What does the Bible say concerning healing?

But seeing a situation as God sees it, and seeing a situation as we think God sees it, are two different things.

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That is what the Holy Ghost is for. Have you met Him?

The Jews understood the Word better than we do, but still they formed a theology that didn't take into consideration the possiblity that their Messiah would be born in a manger and die on a Roman cross.

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Actually the unsaved Jew doesn't understand the Word better than we do as they have missed the main point. We are saved and they are not.

Even today, we don't understand everything in the Bible. Take eschatology. Many Christians believe that the Book of Revelation deals with 1st Century issues; others beleive that it deals with the distant future. Of those who believe that the Book of Revelation pertains to future events, some have a postmillenial view, while others are premillenial. Of those who are premillenial, many believe in a pretribulational rapture; some are midtribulational; some are posttribulational.

Just because we know the Bible doesn't mean we know exactly what the Bible means 100% of the time.
Are you absolutely positive that you see this situation completely and unequivocably like God sees it?

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I'm sure you're not sure.

I'm sorry, but that statement is not scriptural. Faith is belief. Faith is not the confidence that precedes belief.

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If you would do an in depth Word study about the word "faith" you would find that you can, in almost all cases, correctly substitute the word confidence for faith. Faith is having confidence in a belief, it just depends on how much confidence you have as to whether you will actually believe and receive. You can have faith that you are healed of a sickness and not enough faith to believe, and by believing, receive your healing. When your faith is elevated to the point you believe, then you will be healed. Jesus said unequivocally that you will receive as you believe.

Belief does not come from increased confidence. Belief comes when God gives you a spontaneous promise directly into your spirit. When you have that personal promise from God, then you have confidence that God will do what He has said.

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If this were true we would have no reason to develop our faith.

He did make one exception. "What things so ever ye desire..." If you don't desire something, you can hardly expect God to give it to you.

Obviously, the parents desired for the child to live. But do we know for sure that the child desired to live?

If she desired to go home, and if she prayed to God in faith to go home, then what is God to do?

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You knowledge of the situation has no bearing on what the Bible says about healing. Jesus suffered sickness and disease so the child wouldn't have to.

I want to bring your attention to a certain passage in the Book of James, chapter 4, verse 11.

Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it
Now, I realize that I am about to upset the applecart, but are you not judging your brother and sister (i.e the parents of this little girl)? Are you not saying that the death of their child is ipso facto proof that their faith failed? Is this not what you refer to as being "righteous judgment in accordance with the Word?"

Well, by judging them, the Bible says that you are the one who is judging the Word, not me.

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Thank you for your accusation and erroneous judgment of my motivation here, i.e. accusing me of being judgmental. I'm not judging anybody personally. I'm telling you that Jesus had already suffered this child's sickness so that the child wouldn't have to, but she suffered and died from it any way. I'm telling you this was not God's will for her life and since God did all he needed to do for the girl to be healed, then that leaves the rest of it with man.

Now, since I took a great of deal time to properly answer your post, I ask you to take a few minutes and address each one of my points specifically. Please state specifically if you agree or do not agree with each point. My points are stated as absolutes and as such, if you disagree in any way with a point, then you don't agree. Please give explanation for those points you don't agree with.

1. Jesus suffered all sickness and disease so we wouldn't have to.

2. Jesus made healing from all sickness and disease available to us all.

3. The sickness didn't come from God.

4. God wanted her healed.

5. It wasn't God's fault that the child was sick.

6. It wasn't God's fault that the child wasn't healed.

7. God placed the child's welfare primarily in the hands of the parents.

8. The people who said she would live simply missed it which just goes to prove that no one is infallible except God..

9. Just because we don't know the answer, doesn't mean that the answer isn't knowable, however I think the possibilities have now been narrowed sufficiently to take a shot at the few possibilities left.

lyonguard said:

Another thing that I believe people need to learn to do is to get to the root of the problem. We so often pray for the symptom and believe for relief of the symptom instead of finding out what the real problem is. We stand in faith for healing and quote all the scriptures, we have hands laid on us and do all the things we think we should do, but we never ask God what He wants us to do. We don't ask Him what the root of the problem is so we can pray for the root. We don't ask Him which scriptures to stand on. We don't ask Him if He wants us to have hands laid on us or if we should stand in faith on our own or if we should go to a doctor. We totally leave Him out of the process when we should be saying to Him "this is what Your word says, now which way do You want me to do it".

That's when it all began to make sense too. Jesus said He only did what He saw the Father do. That's why sometimes He spoke to people for healing, or made mud, or spit. And look at the things Smith Wigglesworth did. Today, we usually only lay hands on people because that's the only "acceptable" form people will allow.

Like others, I have been standing in faith for an "incurable" disease for several years with little progress. Despite what some WOF Christians say, I know I have faith. I know I have been doing everything right - no sin, no unforgiveness etc, yet I can almost feel the judgment from other Christians. Anyway, once I began asking God what the root of the problem was and how He wanted me to handled it, I was surprised at the answers I recieved. They were not what I thought they would be. It was only then that I began seeing significant progress.

I have carried this same thing into the rest of my prayer life - asking God the root of the problem, what verses He wants me to stand on, etc. and it has made all the difference. For the first time ever, I feel like I can pray and know that I am asking the right question so I can receive real results.

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very well said. I call that a relationship with God what you're doing. I did the same thing with arthritus. I asked God what the root was, He told me, and then I repented, and was healed, but it still took a total of 2 years. Thing is, I didn't tell everyone, because it's none of their buisness, and you don't need ppl believing negative about you while you're trying to get healed. I hoped against hope the word was true, and found it was, but it didn't happen over night. Faith sometimes has to stick it out and FIGHT when everything looks like it's going the wrong direction.

I didn't take no for an answer. I stuck to the word and it paid off.

You shall live and not die and declare the glories of God!

Godown said:

She wouldn't be suffering death at all if it was not for Adam. The proximate cause of death was ushered into humanity by Adam, was paid for by Jesus and needlessly paid for again by the child. Jesus suffered this sickness so the child wouldn't have to, or do you think Jesus didn't suffer this particular sickness?

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Forgive me for using a legal term. (I just became an attorney.) Proximate causation means that there may have been many particular causes for an event, but the last cause, the closest cause in time is the proximate cause.

The proximate causation of her death is not the fall. There are many causes since then. One cause may be that she---the little girl---wanted to go home.

Nonsense. The point was that man's conduct was very much at the bottom of the child's death.

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And if this girl wanted to go home, then her desire would have been the proximate cause.

Perhaps you may consider what Jesus sacrificed for us so we would live free from sickness in the here and now. Perhaps you'd like to consider that by your theory, Jesus is a receptor of persons in that he wants some in heaven early so they don't have to run the race the rest of us have to run here.

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It depends on how you define the word "early."

Your use of the word "early" implies that there is a perfect time for a person to die and go to Heaven. Correct? I hope I am not reading too much into what you are saying.

Well, then... what was the perfect time for this little girl to go to Heaven? Should it have been age 90? What about age 80? 70 maybe? 45? How about 32?

Many have used Psalm 90's "threescore years and ten" as the base line for how long all persons should live. A proper exegisis of this scripture would not yield such an analysis. Otherwise, Jesus would have been crucified at age 70, and not 33.

There is no precise passage in the Bible whereby God promises a person a definite length of time on Earth. In fact, James tells us not to boast about the future because we may die tomorrow. (James 4:13-16.)

If then the Bible does not promise any of us another day on Earth, how do you define what it means to be "in heaven early"?

In the case of this little girl, can you say for an absolute certainty that this was not her time?

So you are saying that she went to heaven while she was yet alive in her body and decided to stay. I'm sure as a WOFer, you have scripture to support this.

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I don't know for certain that this is what happened. I know it happened to my nephew. As to scripture, I do recall numerous occasions whereby people went to Heaven while still alive. The entire book of Revelation is ipso facto proof of that.

That is what the Holy Ghost is for. Have you met Him?

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Yeah, we're tight. I mean, its not like I am on his speed dial or anything, but we've been buds for eighteen years or so.

As for seeing situations the way God sees them, God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. By definition, He sees things that we do not.

For example, with close to 6 billion people on this planet, God knows the hearts and prayers of people in countries I have never heard of.

Therefore, even if I were to have angelic visions of Heaven and were to converse with God at a level in which Benny Hinn could only dream, I still would not be able to see every situation from God's vantage without becoming omniscient myself.

The fact is, I can only see situations from God's perspective if God chooses to reveal the same to me. Since God has not revealed the circumstances surrounding the death of this little girl, I am not competent to judge whehter anyone lacked faith.

Actually the unsaved Jew doesn't understand the Word better than we do as they have missed the main point. We are saved and they are not.

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Which is my point.

The Jews were taught to memorize the entire Torah by the time they turned 13. They had the Word in their heart, but they relied upon faulty interpretations of the Word.

Now if God's chosen people---who actually memorized entire books of the Bible---could misunderstand his message, then how much easier would it be for people who have been grafted into the vine to miss it?

I'm sure you're not sure.

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That's right. I don't know for sure what the Bible says about eschatology.

I used to think that I had all the answers. I've learned over the years that I don't.

You can have faith that you are healed of a sickness and not enough faith to believe, and by believing, receive your healing. When your faith is elevated to the point you believe, then you will be healed.

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That seems very circuituitous.

You are saying that faith and belief are not the same thing.

If this were true we would have no reason to develop our faith.

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On the contrary. Our faith will develop when we hear the Holy Spirit give us more spontaneous personal promises.

You knowledge of the situation has no bearing on what the Bible says about healing. Jesus suffered sickness and disease so the child wouldn't have to.

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Well, is she suffering now?

Thank you for your accusation and erroneous judgment of my motivation here, i.e. accusing me of being judgmental. I'm not judging anybody personally. I'm telling you that Jesus had already suffered this child's sickness so that the child wouldn't have to, but she suffered and died from it any way. I'm telling you this was not God's will for her life and since God did all he needed to do for the girl to be healed, then that leaves the rest of it with man.

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So which man failed?

Assuming, arguendo, that there was a failure, who is the one who failed?

If, let's say, 10 people were praying a hypothetical sick person. Now, lets say that 9 people had faith nothing wavering, but 1 person had doubt and unbelief. Would this one person's doubt and unbelief be stronger than the faith of the nine?

Conversely, if 9 people had doubt and unbelief, but only 1 person had true mountain moving faith, would this person's faith be enough to counter the doubt and unbelief of the other nine?

I guess, at the end of the day, we have to ask which is stronger, doubt or faith?

Now, moving back to the particular girl in question. There were thousands of people who were praying for this girl. Perhaps many of them were not praying for her every night before they went to bed, but at ICBM, she was the subject of many prayers by folks like Hinn, Roberts, Copeland, Dollar, et. al.

Now I suppose in any crowd there are always doubters. And to the extent that they were praying, I suppose that God wasn't listening.

But I find it hard to believe that in a crowd of several thousand tongue-talking, Word of Faith, charismatics that there wasn't just one person--just one person--with faith nothing waivering. Moreover, I would think that God--the healing God that he is--would only need one person to "stand in the gap" and interceed for this girl, if in fact, He truly wanted to heal her physically.

Ergo, we have only two possibilities....

(A) God wanted to take her home, either because it was His Will or because it was her desire; or

(B) The entire ICBM conference lacked the requisite faith to move God into healing this girl right then and there.

Assuming that (A) is out of the question, then (B) presents an interesting constuct, to wit: what we as WoF charismatics call "faith" may not be "faith" at all. There may be something more to faith than we are willing to admit.

Now, since I took a great of deal time to properly answer your post, I ask you to take a few minutes and address each one of my points specifically. Please state specifically if you agree or do not agree with each point. My points are stated as absolutes and as such, if you disagree in any way with a point, then you don't agree. Please give explanation for those points you don't agree with.

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This reminds me. I have to submits some Requests for Admissions to an opposing party in a lawsuit this week. Thanks for the reminder.

1. Jesus suffered all sickness and disease so we wouldn't have to.

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2. Jesus made healing from all sickness and disease available to us all.

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3. The sickness didn't come from God.

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4. God wanted her healed.

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5. It wasn't God's fault that the child was sick.

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6. It wasn't God's fault that the child wasn't healed.

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7. God placed the child's welfare primarily in the hands of the parents.

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Answer: True. I suppose you are implying that the parent's were primarily to blame. So much for not judging anyone in particular.​

8. The people who said she would live simply missed it which just goes to prove that no one is infallible except God.

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9. Just because we don't know the answer, doesn't mean that the answer isn't knowable, however I think the possibilities have now been narrowed sufficiently to take a shot at the few possibilities left.

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If you are determined to believe that the Bible says it was God's will that a six year child die from of sickness and disease, even after Jesus died on the Cross so she wouldn't have to die of sickness and disease, then there is noting I can do to help you.

I will just have to accept the fact that you believe your god wanted a six year old girl to die from sickness and disease, while I know it isn't my Heavenly Father's will that anyone die from sickness and disease.

Godown said:

If you are determined to believe that the Bible says it was God's will that a six year child die from of sickness and disease, even after Jesus died on the Cross so she wouldn't have to die of sickness and disease, then there is noting I can do to help you.

I will just have to accept the fact that you believe your god wanted a six year old girl to die from sickness and disease, while I know it isn't my heavenly Fathers will that anyone die from sickness and disease.

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Moving away from the case at hand, let's address your thesis that "it isn't my heavenly Fathers will that anyone die from sickness and disease."

It would seem to me that if I could find just one instance in Scripture where the Father caused someone to be sick or to have a disease, then your assertion would fail.

Now, examine the Book of Revelation:

Admittedly, most--if not all--of these plagues were reserved for the people who hate God. But that doesn't change the fact that these plagues originated from God himself.

Now, back to the situation with the girl who died.

You may be right that God wanted her to live and that certain people doubted, causing the girl to die. For all I know you may be right. But I am not prepared to say that.

I do not have universal knowledge of the hearts and minds of the child, the parents, or those who offered prayers on her behalf. Further, I do not have insight from the Lord as to her particular case (vis-a-vis whether it was her time, or whether she wanted to go). Ergo, I am not competent to judge this situation.

Accordingly, I refuse to lay blame at anyone's feet. Instead, I would rather lay my preconceived notions about theology and ask the Lord what He would have me learn.

TheMatmanReturns said:

Moving away from the case at hand, let's address your thesis that "it isn't my heavenly Fathers will that anyone die from sickness and disease."

It would seem to me that if I could find just one instance in Scripture where the Father caused someone to be sick or to have a disease, then your assertion would fail.


Now, examine the Book of Revelation:

Re 9:20 - And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:​

Re 11:6 - These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.​

Re 15:1 - And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.​

Re 15:6 - And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.​

Re 15:8 - And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.​

Re 16:9 - And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.​

Re 18:4 - And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.​

Re 18:8 - Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.​

Re 21:9 - And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.​

Re 22:18 - For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:​

Admittedly, most--if not all--of these plagues were reserved for the people who hate God. But that doesn't change the fact that these plagues originated from God himself.

Now, back to the situation with the girl who died.

You may be right that God wanted her to live and that certain people doubted, causing the girl to die. For all I know you may be right. But I am not prepared to say that.

I do not have universal knowledge of the hearts and minds of the child, the parents, or those who offered prayers on her behalf. Further, I do not have insight from the Lord as to her particular case (vis-a-vis whether it was her time, or whether she wanted to go). Ergo, I am not competent to judge this situation.

Accordingly, I refuse to lay blame at anyone's feet. Instead, I would rather lay my preconceived notions about theology and ask the Lord what He would have me learn.

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Get a Young's concordance. In the front of it you'll find a section which explains the permissive and causative isues in the Old Testament.

I thought you understood that this was a WOF Sub-Forum. The notion of God killing people with sickness and disease is not a WOF belief.

Let me suggest that you read a few WOF books about healing by Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Gloria Copeland and many more so you can better understand why WOFers know that God doesn't make people sick or kill them with disease.

Like I said, I know my Heavenly Father is the God who heals. I hope you get to know him to.

Godown said:

Get a Young's concordance. In the front of it you'll find a section which explains the permissive and causative isues in the Old Testament.

I thought you understood that this was a WOF Sub-Forum. The notion of God killing people with sickness and disease is not a WOF belief.

Let me suggest that you read a few WOF books about healing by Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Gloria Copeland and many more so you can better understand why WOFers know that God doesn't make people sick or kill them with disease.

Like I said, I know my Heavenly Father is the God who heals. I hope you get to know him to.

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I understand the difference between the permissive and the causative. However, I don't see how there is any difference in the two with regard to Revelation 15.

In Revelation 15, seven angels wearing holy white linen leave the temple of God with seven plagues. These plagues are called the "wrath of God."

Do you think they left the temple of their own volition? (i.e. Do you think that this was God's permissive will?) Or do you think they were under orders from the Father? (i.e. Do you think that the Father caused them to leave?)

Well, since the Glory of the Lord prevented people from entering the temple until the plagues were fulfilled, it would seem to me that there was some coordination between the Father and these angels. If so, the pouring of these plagues could hardly be the permissive will of God.

Now, I bring this to your attention to prove one point.

If you have a theology that emphasizes one truth to the complete exclusion of another, you will invariably fall into error.

If faith comes from hearing, and if hearing comes from the Word of God, then faith cannot be perfected unless and until you adopt a balanced view of what the entire Bible says--particularly the New Testament.

Thus, if you deny the obvious truth of one NT passage to embrace inferences you have derived from others, then you will undermine the very Word of Faith that you claim to espouse.

TheMatmanReturns said:

I understand the difference between the permissive and the causative. However, I don't see how there is any difference in the two with regard to Revelation 15.

In Revelation 15, seven angels wearing holy white linen leave the temple of God with seven plagues. These plagues are called the "wrath of God."

Do you think they left the temple of their own volition? (i.e. Do you think that this was God's permissive will?) Or do you think they were under orders from the Father? (i.e. Do you think that the Father caused them to leave?)

Well, since the Glory of the Lord prevented people from entering the temple until the plagues were fulfilled, it would seem to me that there was some coordination between the Father and these angels. If so, the pouring of these plagues could hardly be the permissive will of God.

Now, I bring this to your attention to prove one point.

If you have a theology that emphasizes one truth to the complete exclusion of another, you will invariably fall into error.

If faith comes from hearing, and if hearing comes from the Word of God, then faith cannot be perfected unless and until you adopt a balanced view of what the entire Bible says--particularly the New Testament.

Thus, if you deny the obvious truth of one NT passage to embrace inferences you have derived from others, then you will undermine the very Word of Faith that you claim to espouse.

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You intellectualism betrays your very objective which is to understand the Word.

I'll say it again so you might get it.

There is no sickness in Heaven for God to give to anyone.

Jesus suffered all sickness and disease so that we wouldn't have to.

God didn't send Jesus to die to make divine health available to you, then turn around an make people sick.

To accept the theology you're promoting here would make Jesus' sacrifice of none affect.

As I said, what you are promoting here is not a WOF view and I'm here to fellowship with WOFers who, by and large, believe in WOF teachings.

Godown said:

You intellectualism betrays your very objective which is to understand the Word.

I'll say it again so you might get it.

There is no sickness in Heaven for God to give to anyone.

Jesus suffered all sickness and disease so that we wouldn't have to.

God didn't send Jesus to die to make divine health available to you, then turn around an make people sick.

To accept the theology you're promoting here would make Jesus' sacrifice of none affect.

As I said, what you are promoting here is not a WOF view and I'm here to fellowship with WOFers who, by and large, believe in WOF teachings.

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Look, I'm sorry if this upsets you, but it doesn't matter whether you are WoF or Baptist or Catholic or whatever else, you cannot bury your head in the sand to what the Bible clearly says without undermining your faith.

Certainly, God is the epitome of love. He is full of compassion and grace.

Be that as it may, you cannot--or at least you should not--adopt a tradition that completely ingores what a particular Bible passage says.

In Revelation 15, we are told the following:

1 I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues--last, because with them God's wrath is completed.
2 And I saw what looked like a sea of glass mixed with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and over the number of his name. They held harps given them by God
3 and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb: "Great and marvelous are your deeds, Lord God Almighty. Just and true are your ways, King of the ages.
4 Who will not fear you, O Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed."
5 After this I looked and in heaven the temple, that is, the tabernacle of the Testimony, was opened.
6 Out of the temple came the seven angels with the seven plagues. They were dressed in clean, shining linen and wore golden sashes around their chests.
7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever.
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed

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.

Admittedly, this passage has little, if anything, to do with our present age. But the message is clear: At some point in the future, God is going to pour out his wrath on mankind. This isn't me talking... The words I quoted came straight from the Bible.

Now, here is my point....

If you want to say that God's general plan and purpose for persons alive today is that each person walk in his mercy and grace, then that is fine.

But if you want to say that God will never, ever, ever cause people to get sick, then that flatly contradicts Revelation 15. Because in the last days, he is going to pour out his wrath on mankind.