Rob Bell...whoa??

[Simon_Templar]

What bothers me most about the video is the unspoken assumption that Gandhi was too good for Hell. I certainly hope Gandhi is in Heaven, but if he is it's because of the grace and mercy of God, not his ideology and accomplishments.

good point.

 

[gratefulgrace]

The point of the person who left the note was probably - what is this piece doing in my church?

Why the subversive note then why not just ask. It was not a very cool thing to do. That is the point that Rob was making not that Gandhi was too good for hell. IMHO>

 

[AudioArtist]

I don't know if he is leading people to Hell. He might well be - I haven't visited his Church or met those who became professing Christians through his preaching. Do any of you know large numbers of professing Christians who visit his church? Are those who condemn "emergent types" actually friends with many "emergent types?" But I do know born again believers who have been blessed by some of what he has written and said, even if they don't agree with much of it. He asks some questions that are worth asking, and others that aren't.

Apart from Scripture, I've been blessed by what some ancient Catholic mystics have written. I've been inspired by some Celtic Christian writings. Some of the revelation of the spiritual life in there is mindblowing - and some is worth being wary of. But many protestants would damn these works and take anything pre-Reformatin as 'no go', apart from perhaps the writings of the earliest Church Fathers (though they were far from perfect, and often had their own strange ideas about Salvation, Heaven, Hell, Angels, Lucifer, etc.) I'm inspired in my walk with Christ by the love of women like Mother Theresa, who don't seem particularly desperate to preach on Hell. Mother Theresa even made one comment once that sounded like she didn't think people needed Jesus for salvation, but her writings, actions, and most of her other words reeked of the love of Christ. I know people have been inspired by her to make Jesus their Lord of and Saviour, despite her Catholic theology.

Though Rob Bell is nothing like Mother Theresa, and though I can see why he sends warning bells in people's hearts, this Hell issue isn't the only thing he talks about. His stuff called "Everything is Spiritual", for example, is really interesting - taking the latest findings of modern physics and science in general and revealing the majesty of the Christian God through them.

I know the above probably won't convince anyone. But for a start, I haven't seen him outright advocate universalism (I'd have to read the book to see if he does), and I have seen him proclaim Jesus as Messiah, Saviour, and King. I will say that the emergent church needs serious reforming, but I'm sure we as charismatics should understand how dodgy it is to brazenly state God is utterly not in a movement, just because it is different and currently very imperfect.

 

[Simon_Templar]

I don't know if he is leading people to Hell. He might well be - I haven't visited his Church or met those who became professing Christians through his preaching. Do any of you know large numbers of professing Christians who visit his church? Are those who condemn "emergent types" actually friends with many "emergent types?" But I do know born again believers who have been blessed by some of what he has written and said, even if they don't agree with much of it. He asks some questions that are worth asking, and others that aren't.

Apart from Scripture, I've been blessed by what some ancient Catholic mystics have written. I've been inspired by some Celtic Christian writings. Some of the revelation of the spiritual life in there is mindblowing - and some is worth being wary of. But many protestants would damn these works and take anything pre-Reformatin as 'no go', apart from perhaps the writings of the earliest Church Fathers (though they were far from perfect, and often had their own strange ideas about Salvation, Heaven, Hell, Angels, Lucifer, etc.) I'm inspired in my walk with Christ by the love of women like Mother Theresa, who don't seem particularly desperate to preach on Hell. Mother Theresa even made one comment once that sounded like she didn't think people needed Jesus for salvation, but her writings, actions, and most of her other words reeked of the love of Christ. I know people have been inspired by her to make Jesus their Lord of and Saviour, despite her Catholic theology.

Though Rob Bell is nothing like Mother Theresa, and though I can see why he sends warning bells in people's hearts, this Hell issue isn't the only thing he talks about. His stuff called "Everything is Spiritual", for example, is really interesting - taking the latest findings of modern physics and science in general and revealing the majesty of the Christian God through them.

I know the above probably won't convince anyone. But for a start, I haven't seen him outright advocate universalism (I'd have to read the book to see if he does), and I have seen him proclaim Jesus as Messiah, Saviour, and King. I will say that the emergent church needs serious reforming, but I'm sure we as charismatics should understand how dodgy it is to brazenly state God is utterly not in a movement, just because it is different and currently very imperfect.

Universalism is wrong, but I wouldn't say it completely disqualifies someone. There are different types of universalism as well.. some are more 'reasonable' than others.

In the end universalism is a bad teaching because, in most of its forms, it sets the person and their own morality up as the final arbiter. In other words, people can't accept the idea of eternal hell because it doesn't seem right to them...
I'm not trying to judge when I say this because I don't know where God draws the line of judgement on things like this.. however, the real original sin that caused the fall of man was that Adam and Eve chose to have their own morality, their own standard of right and wrong apart from God.

Not all, but the vast majority of people who fall into universalism do so precisely because they are still clinging to that original sin.

When it comes down to it for those people it doesn't matter that the bible or the Church have clearly taught the reality of eternal hell... in the end the bible and the Church must be wrong so that they can be right.

Now, when you mention the ancient mystics and spiritualists... I'm probably in the extreme minority here, but I believe that most of those people were more right than most protestants today.
In mysticism there is always danger, and just as charismatics today sometimes go astray, so mystics (which is essentially what charismatics are) have gone astray in the past.
On the whole, however, the Church Fathers etc, knew the faith and understood it far better than the modern western Christians of our day.

 

[NaLuvena]

I think the clip asks some very relevant questions...thngs all serious believers will wrestle with at some stage of their progress toward Christlikeness.

The biggest glaring flaw I found was in his saying that a loving God will not sentence untold millions to hell.

uummm...He will. Remember this is that God who said "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

It's His choice to choose who to have mercy on and who not to be merciful upon, and He has made the criteria very clear...."for whomsoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life"

Jesus is not saving us from God. He IS saving us from the death which is rightfully our due as sinners.

 

[talitha]

Why the subversive note then why not just ask. It was not a very cool thing to do. That is the point that Rob was making not that Gandhi was too good for hell. IMHO>

Why the subversive note? Often the real question lies behind the automatic response, and people aren't really even aware of what the real question is. Probably true of the writer of the "subversive note". Also, such a subversive note is itself a bit of an artistic statement. Many artists would hope that their contributions would cause such a strong reaction.

 

[the geech]

I think it's funny that Rob Bell is being criticized in this sub-forum. Of course nobody here is going to like him and dub him a 'heretic', he doesn't preach their brand of "spirit-filled Christianity".

I love Bell and his approach to Christianity, he uses logic and reasoning but still acknowledges the Spiritual side of everything. I've read all of his books, watched all of his videos and listened to most of his podcasts and he does not preach universalism. Every criticism I've ever heard about him has mo basis, the critic has taken something he said completely out of context and manipulated it to fit their agenda.

 

[JimB]

I think it's funny that Rob Bell is being criticized in this sub-forum. Of course nobody here is going to like him and dub him a 'heretic', he doesn't preach their brand of "spirit-filled Christianity".

I love Bell and his approach to Christianity, he uses logic and reasoning but still acknowledges the Spiritual side of everything. I've read all of his books, watched all of his videos and listened to most of his podcasts and he does not preach universalism. Every criticism I've ever heard about him has mo basis, the critic has taken something he said completely out of context and manipulated it to fit their agenda.

Although you've got to admit he's pretty clear on where he stands on the popular Dante concept of hell.



.

 

[the geech]

Although you've got to admit he's pretty clear on where he stands on the popular Dante concept of hell.

.

Perhaps not, but then that interpretation may need to be reevaluated.

 

[gratefulgrace]

It is interesting to me why some Christians feel so threatened by Rob Bell. He says lots of very profound and good things about who we are in Christ and the Spirit of God. What he has declared in his written words can be confusing and I have admitted that I was not that excited about some of the things I read in Velvet Elvis. He says some things I don't really understand or agree with as well but many people have come to personal faith in Jesus through his ministry. If his work is of God it will stand if not it will fall.

Mar 9:38Now John answered Him, saying, "Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us."

Mar 9:39But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.

Mar 9:40"For he who is not against us is on our side.

He appeals to a different group of folks than many churches do. Are we jealous of his success?

'he has a huge church therefore he must be teaching heresy or he wouldn't have that large a following. He is not really telling the whole truth about God's wrath and judgement. These people must be decieved and are being duped into a false concept of God'.

However, If God is really working there who are we to drag out isolated straw arguments about hell and how often and how he teaches about it. As a Christian do I go around thinking about hell all the time is my "orthodox" view of hell makeing me a better disciple of Jesus? How many people who have ever attended or been part of the Christian community at MarsHill post here. Do we really know what is going on or are we just silly gossips taking snippets of data from blogs and from lets criticize everyone websites. If he fails at all I think it is in trying to be too relevant and too connected to what is actually happening in the world and what that means here and now for the human heart. His desire is to affirm the believer through love and grace and perhaps he oversteps the work of the Holy Spirit in conviction and repentence but this is just my opinion. But does that mean that everyone under his ministry is a heretic and unsaved. Do you really think God is that small?

Act 5:34Then one in the council stood up, a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law held in respect by all the people, and commanded them to put the apostles outside for a little while.

Act 5:35And he said to them: "Men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what you intend to do regarding these men.

Act 5:36"For some time ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody. A number of men, about four hundred, joined him. He was slain, and all who obeyed him were scattered and came to nothing.

Act 5:37"After this man, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census, and drew away many people after him. He also perished, and all who obeyed him were dispersed.

Act 5:38"And now I say to you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing;

Act 5:39"but if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it—lest you even be found to fight against God."


Why don't we all just pray for Rob that God's will for his life will be fulfilled according to these last scriptures and leave it at that, just a thought. gg

 

[JimB]

*****

If God is really working there who are we to drag out isolated straw arguments about hell and how often and how he teaches about it. As a Christian do I go around thinking about hell all the time is my "orthodox" view of hell makeing me a better disciple of Jesus? How many people who have ever attended or been part of the Christian community at MarsHill post here.

*****

You have to admit that there has been a excess of misguided junk written about the torments of hell over the past few years—23 Minutes in Hell, Escape from Hell, A Divine Revelation of Hell, the “Drilling to Hell—Sounds of the Damned” recording, not to mention the scare-your-pants-off “Hell’s Gates and Heaven’s Flames” play presented in churches across America and the annual “Hell Houses” every Halloween. It is no wonder to me that someone would try to balance things out with a focus on the mercy of God and not just the judgment of hell. Some Christians think the only way to convert the sinner is to scare the hell out of them but the Bible says “mercy triumphs over judgment,” (James 2.13).

~Jim

True faith believes in God, not itself.​

 

[the geech]

It is interesting to me why some Christians feel so threatened by Rob Bell. He says lots of very profound and good things about who we are in Christ and the Spirit of God. What he has declared in his written words can be confusing and I have admitted that I was not that excited about some of the things I read in Velvet Elvis. He says some things I don't really understand or agree with as well but many people have come to personal faith in Jesus through his ministry. If his work is of God it will stand if not it will fall.

He appeals to a different group of folks than many churches do. Are we jealous of his success?

'he has a huge church therefore he must be teaching heresy or he wouldn't have that large a following. He is not really telling the whole truth about God's wrath and judgement. These people must be decieved and are being duped into a false concept of God'.

However, If God is really working there who are we to drag out isolated straw arguments about hell and how often and how he teaches about it. As a Christian do I go around thinking about hell all the time is my "orthodox" view of hell makeing me a better disciple of Jesus? How many people who have ever attended or been.

Do we really know what is going on or are we just silly gossips taking snippets of data from blogs and from lets criticize everyone websites. If he fails at all I think it is in trying to be too relevant and too connected to what is actually happening in the world and what that means here and now for the human heart. His desire is to affirm the believer through love and grace and perhaps he oversteps the work of the Holy Spirit in conviction and repentence but this is just my opinion. But does that mean that everyone under his ministry is a heretic and unsaved. Do you really think God is that small?


Why don't we all just pray for Rob that God's will for his life will be fulfilled according to these last scriptures and leave it at that, just a thought. gg

Wow... EXCELLENT post GG!

 

[Leah]

The Ghandi note is a dangerous assumption and here's why.

No one knows for certain who's in hell except God and we are not God. When people ask whether or not someone is in hell, I think the biblical answer would be to say that the only way to heaven to be with Jesus forever is if he/she has repented and put their trust in Him (cuz remember, the gospel is about the complete forgiveness of sins because we're all really bad sinners who very much deserve hell but Jesus died vicariously for us on our behalf with all of our sins upon Himself and satisfied divine justice that God demanded, made it so that sin and satan can no long have domination over us, was raised from the dead and is now seated at the right hand of God so that our wretched selves can be saved from death now and later and justified by God but man cannot benefit from this unless he repents and puts all of his trust in Jesus. ).

I will say that God prepared hell for satan and the demons (Matthew 25:41). Since He is right in judging satan with hell, then He is also right in doing the same thing for those who choose to follow him. Why? Because He is holy.

What needs to be understood is that people are in hell because they rejected God's invitation to salvation that is only through Jesus Christ and chose to go a different way. When someone goes his or her own way even upon death, hell is the end result.

 

[gratefulgrace]

The Ghandi note is a dangerous assumption and here's why.

When people ask whether or not someone is in hell, I think the biblical answer would be to say that the only way to heaven to be with Jesus forever is if he/she has repented and put their trust in Him (cuz remember, the gospel is about the complete forgiveness of sins).

I will say that God prepared hell for satan and the demons (Matthew 25:41). Since He is right in judging satan with hell, then He is also right in doing the same thing for those who choose to follow him. Why? Because He is holy.

What needs to be understood is that people are in hell because they rejected God's invitation to salvation that is only through Jesus Christ and chose to go a different way. When someone goes his or her own way even upon death, hell is the end result.

Absolutely. God never desired man to be in hell you are right that it was created for the devil and his demons. That is why He send His Son to communicate The Father's Love and to provide propitiation for sin.
propitiation - the act of atoning for sin or wrongdoing
Will everyone accept this? I don't think so based on what further scripture tells us about the narrow way.
But to all that receive Him He gives the right to become His son and His daughter and to abide with Him forever. What a joy what good news!
Why wouldn't everyone accept this? Because they love darkness and evil more than the light and purity of God. Why do people accept this gift of salvation? Because they recognize the love of God and realize their need for a saviour, they cannot make it through this life on their own righteousness. I thought preaching damnation to scare people into hell is an old stereotype anyway. gg

 

[charityagape]

You have to admit that there has been a excess of misguided junk written about the torments of hell over the past few years—23 Minutes in Hell, Escape from Hell, A Divine Revelation of Hell, the “Drilling to Hell—Sounds of the Damned” recording, not to mention the scare-your-pants-off “Hell’s Gates and Heaven’s Flames” play presented in churches across America and the annual “Hell Houses” every Halloween. It is no wonder to me that someone would try to balance things out with a focus on the mercy of God and not just the judgment of hell. Some Christians think the only way to convert the sinner is to scare the hell out of them but the Bible says “mercy triumphs over judgment,” (James 2.13).

~Jim

True faith believes in God, not itself.​

Actually, I think hell shouldn't so much to convince the sinner to turn to Christ, because yes His kindness leads to repentance (although if hell turns a person to Christ then amen!). I think hell should scare Christians more than sinners, scare them because they would let an opportunity go by to share the gospel with someone who, even though they don't believe it, could be headed to hell that day.

 

[gratefulgrace]

Actually, I think hell shouldn't so much to convince the sinner to turn to Christ, because yes His kindness leads to repentance (although if hell turns a person to Christ then amen!). I think hell should scare Christians more than sinners, scare them because they would let an opportunity go by to share the gospel with someone who, even though they don't believe it, could be headed to hell that day.

There is something to this for sure.

 

[JimB]

Actually, I think hell shouldn't so much to convince the sinner to turn to Christ, because yes His kindness leads to repentance (although if hell turns a person to Christ then amen!). I think hell should scare Christians more than sinners, scare them because they would let an opportunity go by to share the gospel with someone who, even though they don't believe it, could be headed to hell that day.

There is something to this for sure.

I think you have something here.

Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men. (2 Cor. 5.11)

~Jim

 

[Leah]

Actually, I think hell shouldn't so much to convince the sinner to turn to Christ, because yes His kindness leads to repentance (although if hell turns a person to Christ then amen!). I think hell should scare Christians more than sinners, scare them because they would let an opportunity go by to share the gospel with someone who, even though they don't believe it, could be headed to hell that day.

Say it well, Charity!

 

[franky67]

Rob Bell seems to be teaching the same message that Ghandi taught, that non violence and love for our fellow human being is living the life that our creator requires.

Ghandi did not perceive Jesus as any more than a loving person, he did not accept Him as the one sent from God to be the final sacrifice for the sins of all mankind. According to his own writings.

Receiving redemption, and knowing the source of that redemption, is what being a Christian believer is all about.

Jesus said we must be born of the Spirit, IOW, born again in order to enter the Kingdom of God.

Living a non-violent , loving life while we're here on earth does not automatically mean we know who our redeemer is.

The miracle of being born of the Spirit of God must happen, or we cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

John, Chapter Three

 

[charityagape]

Our own righteousness, ie non-violent loving person we may be, is like filthy rags.