Right & wrong

[Carico]

Unfortunately, the idea of "if god said it's wrong, that's it...it's wrong" simply doesn't work. The reason is because nobody knows what god said or wants...in the end everybody has to rely on their own, fallible human interpretation of what god wants or doesn't want. That's the reason why Christians so often disagree about what is right and wrong...because they can't agree about what god wants.

If a god exists, it may well be the case that there are things he views as wrong, and things he views as right...but given our present state of communication with him, we can never know just what those things are.

Of course you know what God said! You just reject it in favor of your opinions instead. is that not correct? we have ample evidence that Jesus lived, and died for our sins. If you read His words then you will see why they could NOT have been fabricated by an ordinary human being. if you haven't read His words, then you are in no position to argue for or against them.

 

[psychedelicist]

Of course you know what God said! You just reject it in favor of your opinions instead. is that not correct? we have ample evidence that Jesus lived, and died for our sins. If you read His words then you will see why they could NOT have been fabricated by an ordinary human being. if you haven't read His words, then you are in no position to argue for or against them.

I have read his word.

If you believe that Jesus's story cannot be fabricated, let me tell you something.... 1000 years before Jesus, in a place nowhere near where the OT and NT took place, there is a god of a different religion named Horus, who lived a life nearly identical to Jesus's. Healings, miracles, divine teachings, even the death and rebirth. Do you believe Horus existed? If not, it must be possible to fabricate the story of Jesus, because the story of Horus was fabricated.

 

[The Bellman]

Of course you know what God said! You just reject it in favor of your opinions instead. is that not correct?

No, it's not correct.

we have ample evidence that Jesus lived, and died for our sins. If you read His words then you will see why they could NOT have been fabricated by an ordinary human being. if you haven't read His words, then you are in no position to argue for or against them.

Not at issue. We are not discussing whether or not Jesus lived. It is a religious belief that he "died for our sins", which cannot be supported or evidenced in any way outside of christianity.

I've read the bible, several times, and I see no reason why they could not have been fabricated by an ordinary human being.

In any case, this completely ignores the central issue, that nobody can know what god wants, since we ALWAYS have to rely on our own fallible interpretation.

 

[markie]

If no MAN was good enogh than biblegod would not have given those laws and commanded the Israelites to obey them to the full, and Jesus would never have told his followers to obey every jiot and tottle thereof-futhermore he would not have given this command "BE ye perfect as your heavanly father IS perfect"-Jesus seems to have thought that a person could be perfect enough to be as perfect as god and live the law fully.

Try again friend.

Jesus Christ was the fulfilling of the law, and I would try to explain it if I thought you wanted to know but I think you just want to argue. You may have gone to church for 25 years but since you blaspheme God and Jesus Christ like you do you most definitely were not a Christian.

 

[Carico]

I have read his word.

If you believe that Jesus's story cannot be fabricated, let me tell you something.... 1000 years before Jesus, in a place nowhere near where the OT and NT took place, there is a god of a different religion named Horus, who lived a life nearly identical to Jesus's. Healings, miracles, divine teachings, even the death and rebirth. Do you believe Horus existed? If not, it must be possible to fabricate the story of Jesus, because the story of Horus was fabricated.

You did not read my post. Where are the WORDS that Horus said and how have they been shown to be true? It is Jesus's WORDS that cannot be fabricated by an ordinary human being.

 

[slayer-2004]

Of course you know what God said!

No we dont . Neither do you .

 

[slayer-2004]

It is Jesus's WORDS that cannot be fabricated by an ordinary human being.

really ?

<sarcasm>

I am slayer-2004 . Savior of all . Nobody comes to the father except through me .

</sarcasm>
Look ! I just did .

 

[The Bellman]

You did not read my post. Where are the WORDS that Horus said and how have they been shown to be true? It is Jesus's WORDS that cannot be fabricated by an ordinary human being.

Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. There is nothing in Jesus' words that could not have been made up by a normal human being. As far as moral teachings goes, he got everything from other, older teachers - he came up with no original moral teachings. Here merely grouped what a lot of other people had already said into an attractive passage. I think it was Hillel who said "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you...this is the message of the Torah. All else is commentary."

 

[Carico]

really ?

<sarcasm>

I am slayer-2004 . Savior of all . Nobody comes to the father except through me .

</sarcasm>
Look ! I just did .

And when did you walk on water, heal the sick, and resurrect to prove you are who you say you are?

 

[slayer-2004]

And when did you walk on water, heal the sick, and resurrect to prove you are who you say you are?

I hereby claim that I walked on water , healed the sick , and resurrected to prove I am who I say I am . Its written on this site , it is therefore the word of god because it is .

 

[Carico]

Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. There is nothing in Jesus' words that could not have been made up by a normal human being. As far as moral teachings goes, he got everything from other, older teachers - he came up with no original moral teachings. Here merely grouped what a lot of other people had already said into an attractive passage. I think it was Hillel who said "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you...this is the message of the Torah. All else is commentary."

So how can a man who condemned mankind as evil (including himself) have the love to die for humanity? Where did he get that love? Certainly not from the people he has just condemned! Why would he believe them? Do you know what the phrase; "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit" means? Is there anything in his words that can be proven a lie? what other man do you know of has never lied?

 

[The Bellman]

So how can a man who condemned mankind as evil (including himself) have the love to die for humanity? Where did he get that love? Certainly not from the people he has just condemned! Why would he believe them? Do you know what the phrase; "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit" means? Is there anything in his words that can be proven a lie? what other man do you know of has never lied?

Cna you TRY to stay on the subject? The issue at hand is whether or not Jesus' words could have been said by anyone else. His actions aren't at issue.

The fact that we can't prove any of his words to have been a lie does not constitute proof that he never lied; we have no idea if he did or not. And, again, this is irrelevant. It wouldn't matter (for the purposes of this argument) if he lied frequently. What is at issue is whether a normal human being could have made up Jesus' words. You've given nothing to indicate they coudln't.

 

[Carico]

Cna you TRY to stay on the subject? The issue at hand is whether or not Jesus' words could have been said by anyone else. His actions aren't at issue.

The fact that we can't prove any of his words to have been a lie does not constitute proof that he never lied; we have no idea if he did or not. And, again, this is irrelevant. It wouldn't matter (for the purposes of this argument) if he lied frequently. What is at issue is whether a normal human being could have made up Jesus' words. You've given nothing to indicate they coudln't.

The truth of his words are very DEFINITELY relevant! What ordinary human being has never lied or contradicted himself? If Jesus's words were written by an ordinary human being, you better believe there would be a contradiction in them!

 

[The Bellman]

The truth of his words are very DEFINITELY relevant! What ordinary human being has never lied or contradicted himself? If Jesus's words were written by an ordinary human being, you better believe there would be a contradiction in them!

No, it's not. We don't know if Jesus ever lied or contradicted himself. We have a TINY fraction of what Jesus said throughout his life. Certainly, if someone was to pick a corresponding fraction of what anyone else has said, they could easily do so without showing any contradictions or lies.

 

[slayer-2004]

actually , he did contradict himself once . He said it was wrong to call people fools , but called people fools multiple times in his life . Not exactly contradictory , but hypocritical at that .

And if Jesus ever did contradict himself do you honestly think his disciples who wrote the gospels would record it ?

 

[Fuzzy]

Hitler was a Christian? This is the most desperate statement of all. You first have to know Christ's words before you claim that Hitler followed Him. Hitler contradicted almost all of them, including worhsipping other people (such as himself as the messiah)in place of Christ. Your arguments are as off-base as arguing that the world is flat. Can't you do better than this? Your arguments come from fantasy rather than history.

To quote history:
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter"
- Adolf Hitler, 1922

"I believe that Providence would never have allowed us to see the victory of the Movement if it had the intention after all to destroy us at the end."
- Adolf Hitler, 1933

"The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity."
- Adolf Hitler, 1934

"I believe in Providence and I believe Providence to be just. Therefore I believe that Providence always rewards the strong, the industrious, and the upright."
- Adolf Hitler, 1936

"
If positive Christianity means love of one's neighbour, i.e. the tending of the sick, the clothing of the poor, the feeding of the hungry, the giving of drink to those who are thirsty, then it is we who are the more positive Christians. For in these spheres the community of the people of National Socialist Germany has accomplished a prodigious work. "- Adolf Hitler, 1939
He was raised Christian, he states in his autobiography that his actions
towards the Jews were a function of his faith, and he felt God had ordained
his acts by their success. It was in the early 40's, when the churches
of Christianity began criticizing him, that he went off on his own.
Was he misguided about Christianity? Sure looks that way. Did he, and the
people who elected him, think he was Christian? Either that, or he was
a heck of a deceiver.

 

[Phred]

Boy, you guys are desperate! The lengths you'll go to go against God is quite bizarre.

I have said nothing against god, but rather against you. There is a difference, you are not god.

BUT, you have to try to justify your beliefs in some way, even if they are erroneous. Which Ten Commandments? They are the same in EVERY Christian bible. I suggest you read them so you know what you are arguing against. You can't say they're wrong until you know what they are in the first place!

I suggest you read them, they are not the same. In any Bible you will find two versions of the ten commandments, Exodus 20 and Exodus 34. You will also find that Jesus adds a commandment, thou shalt not defraud... I suggest you read the Bible and not just those signs on lawns.

As far as Iraqui's dying,

I don't care about your arguments for or against the war. They are irrelevant. The people were killed. The Bible says "Thou shalt not kill." YOU have made a moral judgement, overriding the Bible, when you claim it is justified. Not God, not Jesus... YOU. But you expect me to accept that your morality is derived from a deity and thus is absolute. Why should I accept this morality when you don't? It states quite clearly, "Thou shalt not kill". It doesn't say, "Thou shalt not kill unless you think it's a good idea."

For someone who claims to care about the lives of the Iraqui's you sure are willing to have more of them die than are necessary!

I never said anything about that, one way or the other. It is you who claims their deaths were justified by your morality. Yet this choice is in direct opposition to the scripture you say is the base of your decisions. Once again, your "absolute" morality is really just whatever you choose it to be based upon how you feel at the time. That is neither absolute nor moral.

Jesus NEVER condones killing.

Then why would you say the Iraqi deaths are justified? This is in direct opposition to your earlier statements.

Those who kill in His name are NOT following Christ.

So as long as you kill but don't mention his name it's ok? One minute you can kill, the next you can't, the next you can but with conditions... Some absolute morality you've got there.

it isn't Jesus's FOLLOWERS that we worship, it's His ideals. Jesus said there will be MANY who claim to follow him but are actually wolves in sheep's clothing. Unfortunately, you think we should worship Christians instead of Christ. You're still trying to worship human beings as gods instead of God alone.

I'm not worshipping anyone. You're making all the claims, suggesting there is an absolute morality and you know what it is... then the next minute disregarding the scripture you promote to suit your needs. If, as you say, you know what morality God wishes, why are you so confused about it?

Hitler was a Christian?

Yup. I believe so.

This is the most desperate statement of all. You first have to know Christ's words before you claim that Hitler followed Him. Hitler contradicted almost all of them, including worhsipping other people (such as himself as the messiah)in place of Christ. Your arguments are as off-base as arguing that the world is flat. Can't you do better than this? Your arguments come from fantasy rather than history.

I don't claim Hitler followed Jesus. I do believe he was raised and worshipped as a Christian. If you think that his actions don't allow him to be a Christian, let's remember that Germany was and is a staunchly Catholic country and Hitler didn't push all those people into the ovens himself. Christian soldiers did the work for him.

You brought up Hitler, not I. If your comparison brings you something you didn't wish to speak of, bummer... it's out there. But I think your comparison is immature and faulty. Christianity, like all religions, is stained by the actions of those who weren't able to or never really tried to follow it... yet claimed it as their own. YOU don't get to be the final arbitor and simply remove anyone you don't like. Best be careful, after reading your performance, someone might wish to remove you.

The final thing to take away from this is that no man has access to absolute moral judgements. We all do the best we can with what we know. Anyone who suggests otherwise isn't really paying attention.

 

[CaDan]

The truth of his words are very DEFINITELY relevant! What ordinary human being has never lied or contradicted himself? If Jesus's words were written by an ordinary human being, you better believe there would be a contradiction in them!

I'd like to introduce you to John Marcus, the author of The Gospel According to Mark.

Then I'd like to introduce you to Matthew, one of the revisors of the Gospel According to Mark who produced his own edition, the Gospel According to Matthew.

Also in our studio tonight, we have Luke, who some say revised John Mark's work on his own, while others believe he actually produced his own version of the Gospel According to Matthew.

Finally, we have John, one of the most original authors ever, who will be discussing his work, the Gospel According to John.

Absent from our discussion will be Jesus of Nazareth, SINCE HE NEVER WROTE A THING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[markie]

Cna you TRY to stay on the subject? The issue at hand is whether or not Jesus' words could have been said by anyone else. His actions aren't at issue.

The fact that we can't prove any of his words to have been a lie does not constitute proof that he never lied; we have no idea if he did or not. And, again, this is irrelevant. It wouldn't matter (for the purposes of this argument) if he lied frequently. What is at issue is whether a normal human being could have made up Jesus' words. You've given nothing to indicate they coudln't.

If Jesus had lied He would have been sinning and therefore would not have been the perfect sacrifice. I suppose a normal man who could talk would have had the ability to say the things that Jesus said, but he couldn't have done the things that Jesus did and he would have to had a weird imagination to say them. Another man was physically able to say what Jesus said but not mentally or spiritually able to keep the prophecies about Jesus that are in the old testament.

 

[Carico]

And who made up his words, words that never contradicted themselves? Words that prophesied and uttered truths that have never been disproven?