Right & wrong

[Carico]

When looking at all the thread topics I am simply amazed at how many people do not know right from wrong. Questions about whether homosexuality is right or wrong, nudism, what truth is, etc. This is the state of the human condition; not knowing what right and wrong are but sure being convinced of their OPINIONS of right and wrong! a HUGE contradiction! That's one reason why there's a God! But He is usually ignored in favor of a person's opinion, even though that person has demonstrated that he doesn't have the answers! It's called pride. This is one example of the proud being humbled. But nevertheless, people go on looking for answers from other people who don't know the answers. There's that pride again. No wonder your guys' questions never stop. You're asking the wrong sources!

 

[Arikay]

To sum that up,
Carico: Right
Anyone that doesn't believe the way Carico does: Wrong.

What was the point to this thread?
As it came off like you are stroking your pride.

 

[Strange_Wonderer]

I do believe we define our morals from our instincts? There's also society, too.

 

[Ryal Kane]

Carico, you keep doing this over and over again. No mater how many times others try and explain it, you miss the point. This will be my one and only attempt.

Atheists do not think they know better than God.
Atheists do not believe in God.

You do not believe that you know better than Odin.
You do not believe in Odin.

Imagine you meet someone in the street who tells you that an invisible super intellegent alien is beaming thoughts into his head and that you need to give him a million dollars.
You chose not to.
He says 'The alien is a million times smarter than you, how dare you claim to know better than him!'

Can you understand this analogy?

People don't think they know better than God.
They just think they know the nature of God better than you.

Ryal Kane

 

[Murmur]

Carico, you keep doing this over and over again. No mater how many times others try and explain it, you miss the point. This will be my one and only attempt.

Atheists do not think they know better than God.
Atheists do not believe in God.

You do not believe that you know better than Odin.
You do not believe in Odin.

Imagine you meet someone in the street who tells you that an invisible super intellegent alien is beaming thoughts into his head and that you need to give him a million dollars.
You chose not to.
He says 'The alien is a million times smarter than you, how dare you claim to know better than him!'

Can you understand this analogy?

People don't think they know better than God.
They just think they know the nature of God better than you.

Ryal Kane

I like the way you think, Ryal. I believe the word for what Carico is trying to get across is "flame-bait", and I will not fall for it either.

 

[BarbB]

I do believe we define our morals from our instincts? There's also society, too.

But your instincts would be for your survival, no holds barred. That does not bode well for the society around you.

I agree with Carico - it's like parents didn't teach anything or if they did, no one believes them. I can't tell you how much easier life is when you rely on God's definitions of right and wrong. I no longer even have to think about it - if God said something's wrong, that's it. No argument!

 

[Holy Heretic]

When looking at all the thread topics I am simply amazed at how many people do not know right from wrong. Questions about whether homosexuality is right or wrong, nudism, what truth is, etc. This is the state of the human condition; not knowing what right and wrong are but sure being convinced of their OPINIONS of right and wrong! a HUGE contradiction! That's one reason why there's a God! But He is usually ignored in favor of a person's opinion, even though that person has demonstrated that he doesn't have the answers! It's called pride. This is one example of the proud being humbled. But nevertheless, people go on looking for answers from other people who don't know the answers. There's that pride again. No wonder your guys' questions never stop. You're asking the wrong sources!

Carico;
as a deist, I beleive that the Creator{the one whom you would use the patriarchal term "god" for} gave us a wonderful gift called "reason". It also gave us nature and natural law.
if one looks over history, one will find that before judaism and christianity and after as well, there have always been certain moral or ethical codes that civilized people have followed.
the ideas of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and "love thy neighbor" which pre-existed the judeo-christian concepts of morality and god{in fact some of the quotes usaully attrbuted to jesus about these things actually pre-existed before he even said them-allmost word for word, which says that Jesus merely musta read and travelled during all those years f his life that are unnacounted for in the gospels and picked up ideas from other beliefs and cultures} .
nonrevealed religonists usaully sum up morality{though because of it's associatio w/prejudices and elitist revealed religons, they often avoid the term 'morality'-I for one am comfortable w/it}this way, and this is how I sum up morality;
I do not harm becasue I do not wish to be harmed
I love because I wish to be loved
I do not exploit, because I do not wish t be exploited.

Now regarding thing ssuch as homosexuality, they harm no one, they do not exploit anyone, and they are seeking to love and be loved.
Therefore I conclude given that great gift of the creators called "reason" that it is therefore not wrong! Same goes for nudity{nudists have been less sexually pervrted and harmful and exploitive than those afraid of and whom demonize the nude body as ungodly and therfore try to repress t, and peek more curiosity which demands to be satified by any means nessacery}. If we all bean walking around nude today, w/in no time we would be use to the nude body and we would no more lust after a nude body than we do a clothed one.

It's pretty simple.

Now, if no one ever asked questions about what morality is, then we would not have evolved to the ideas of democracy based on eqaulity for all{rather than theocracy based on some holy book written 1000's of years ago by biased MALES} and the ideas of toelrance that we have. You may not agree w/my morality in all respects, but you as a modern christian would not try to deny me my right to believe as I wish-why? Because you are influenced more than you are willing to admit by the deistic morals of the founding fathers of the U.S. and the moral relativity which has brought us to such a place of democracy and equality and tolerance. Yes-we have a ways to go yet, but... we are progressing faster because of these questions beeing asked and because of the freethought relativity, faster than we ever did when we had our morals dictated by old,rusty revealed holy books of variuos revealed religons.
The peacef loving and tolerance lovng fruits of this relativity anf freethinking speaks for itself.
The elitist,prejudiced, fear and guilt induced, patriarchal fruits which brought forth fruits of prejudcie,war and death throughout history-speaks for what worth the morals of revealed religon has!
And if you were not following the modern relativistic thinking of of the world[or the western cultures anyways] than you would be following your bible, and you would be more prejudiced and you'd be killing as the o.t. law says to do and jesus commanded obedience to every jot anf tittle{letter} of the o.t. law in Matthew 5:7-19, thank deity that you are not!

peace

 

[Arikay]

And since humans are social animals, survival of the society means survival of the individual. Unfortunatly people seem to forget this and pretend that "godless" morality can't exist. This is disproven through many means, including Humanist groups that often do as much (or more) work helping others as christian churches.


Except that Gods definition of right and wrong have changed through out the years, often based on society. You aren't trully following Gods definitions but Gods definitions filtered through your interpretation based on your experiences in life and society.

A quick example,
Do you think burning witches is wrong?
The bible says its right, and people have used the bible to morally justify the burning of witches. Yet it is not considered moral today but the bible hasn't changed. Some might say they were wrong burn witches and they missunderstood the bible. Yet if they missunderstood the bible, couldn't it be possible that people today are misunderstanding the bible?

Thus morals based on Gods word are not absolute because they must be filtered through fallible men. Claiming that christian morals are absolute and the high road, is ironically taking a prideful low road.

The fun part is that the bible speaks out against this very thing we see here.

But your instincts would be for your survival, no holds barred. That does not bode well for the society around you.

I agree with Carico - it's like parents didn't teach anything or if they did, no one believes them. I can't tell you how much easier life is when you rely on God's definitions of right and wrong. I no longer even have to think about it - if God said something's wrong, that's it. No argument!

 

[Philosoft]

But your instincts would be for your survival, no holds barred. That does not bode well for the society around you.

Not necessarily. Humans seem to function reasonably well in a social context. If it is the case - as seems likely - that social humans have greater survivability than individualistic or separatist humans, we would have evolved more social behavior traits.

I agree with Carico - it's like parents didn't teach anything or if they did, no one believes them. I can't tell you how much easier life is when you rely on God's definitions of right and wrong. I no longer even have to think about it - if God said something's wrong, that's it. No argument!

Unfortunately, God's decrees don't encompass the entirety of moral situations. At some point, you have to rely on your own judgment.

 

[slayer-2004]

I hereby laugh at your belief that your morality is somehow immune to subjectivity unlike everyone elses .

It doesnt matter what you believe in ... god , yourself or the stars , its impossible to actually know the ultimate truth since non of us have actually been there . Its possible to dillude yourself into believing you have been there and therefore know the ultimate truth , but you cant actually do it .

 

[Gwynne]

But your instincts would be for your survival, no holds barred. That does not bode well for the society around you.

I agree with Carico - it's like parents didn't teach anything or if they did, no one believes them. I can't tell you how much easier life is when you rely on God's definitions of right and wrong. I no longer even have to think about it - if God said something's wrong, that's it. No argument!

Take a Biblical ethics course and see if it's still that easy to know what is right and wrong.

This is why, even among Chrisitians, there is great debate as to what is considered sin and what isn't. It's not always that clear-cut, even in the Bible.

 

[Carico]

To sum that up,
Carico: Right
Anyone that doesn't believe the way Carico does: Wrong.

What was the point to this thread?
As it came off like you are stroking your pride.

I suggest you re-read my post. I said that GOD has the answers, not human beings which includes myself. You again, are looking for answers from people instead of God.

 

[Carico]

Carico, you keep doing this over and over again. No mater how many times others try and explain it, you miss the point. This will be my one and only attempt.

Atheists do not think they know better than God.
Atheists do not believe in God.

You do not believe that you know better than Odin.
You do not believe in Odin.

Imagine you meet someone in the street who tells you that an invisible super intellegent alien is beaming thoughts into his head and that you need to give him a million dollars.
You chose not to.
He says 'The alien is a million times smarter than you, how dare you claim to know better than him!'

Can you understand this analogy?

People don't think they know better than God.
They just think they know the nature of God better than you.

Ryal Kane

Do atheists not believe their own opinions are right and the authors of the bible are wrong? Do atheists believe Jesus? yes or no. If so, why do they not follow him? If not, they obviously believe they know better than Jesus. Is that not true? I believe that JESUS knows better than i do who God is which is PRECISELY why i follow him! Do you believe that you know who God is better than Jesus does? If so, how have you shown the world that you have the authority from God to know who He is?

 

[slayer-2004]

Do atheists not believe their own opinions are right and the authors of the bible are wrong? Do atheists believe Jesus? yes or no. If so, why do they not follow him? If not, they obviously believe they know better than Jesus. Is that not true? I believe that JESUS knows better than i do who God is which is PRECISELY why i follow him! Do you believe that you know who God is better than Jesus does? If so, how have you shown the world that you have the authority from God to know who He is?

congratulations on proving you cant understand basic concepts of a post .

NON BELIEVERS DO NOT BELIEVE THEY KNOW BETTER THEN JESUS . THEY DONT BELIEVE IN HIM OR WHAT HE SAYS PERIOD .

are you capable of grasping that or not ? How many years will you go on with the mental incappability to understand this infinitly simple kindergarten level concept ? How much longer must you dillude yourself ?

So why is it you refuse to grasp it ? Why must you not allow yourself to see the simple concept as described in capital letters above ? How much longer must you blatantly lie to your own god given mind ? Can you go on living like you do ... brainwashed to the point were you have replaced all forms of logic in your mind with your belief that what you were raised into must be true ?

It seems to me that you are so afraid to peek outside the box , that your refusing to admit that the box is even there when everyone else ( even some of your fellow believers ) can clearly see you are in one .

I will tell you this : Answer the following question or dont even respond to this post ,

Do you believe you know better then Odin , or not ?

 

[Carico]

congratulations on proving you cant understand basic concepts of a post .

NON BELIEVERS DO NOT BELIEVE THEY KNOW BETTER THEN JESUS . THEY DONT BELIEVE IN HIM OR WHAT HE SAYS PERIOD .

are you capable of grasping that or not ? How many years will you go on with the mental incappability to understand this infinitly simple kindergarten level concept ? How much longer must you dillude yourself ?

So why is it you refuse to grasp it ? Why must you not allow yourself to see the simple concept as described in capital letters above ? How much longer must you blatantly lie to your own god given mind ? Can you go on living like you do ... brainwashed to the point were you have replaced all forms of logic in your mind with your belief that what you were raised into must be true ?


It seems to me that you are so afraid to peek outside the box , that your refusing to admit that the box is even there when everyone else ( even some of your fellow believers ) can clearly see you are in one .

I will tell you this : Answer the following question or dont even respond to this post ,

Do you believe you know better then Odin , or not ?

What seems to be very difficult for YOU to grasp is that you obviously believe your opinions over Jesus's! Is it not true that you believe YOUR opinions about who God is or is not, or that God doesn't exist over Jesus's opinion that God DOES exist?

 

[Arikay]

In the OP you state that God is ignored in favor of a persons opinion of morality and that people should know the answers to the questions they ask. Yet since God is always filtered through humans it will always be our opinion that morals are based on. The difference is how we try and justify it. Many christians try to justify their opinion by claiming its backed up by God.

 

[slayer-2004]

What seems to be very difficult for YOU to grasp is that you obviously believe your opinions over Jesus's! Is it not true that you believe YOUR opinions about who God is or is not, or that God doesn't exist over Jesus's opinion that God DOES exist?

Forget it , your not even kind enough to answer the simple question I posted on the bottom of my last post .

 

[Carico]

In the OP you state that God is ignored in favor of a persons opinion of morality and that people should know the answers to the questions they ask. Yet since God is always filtered through humans it will always be our opinion that morals are based on. The difference is how we try and justify it. Many christians try to justify their opinion by claiming its backed up by God.

Sorry, Arikay, but i did not say that people should know the answers to the questions they ask. I said that GOD knows the answers to their question, but he is the LAST one they ask. Since they don't ask God, they have no choice but to make up their own morals. The problem is, that their morals change according to popular opinion. That's why there are so many questions about homosexuality, abortion, truth, etc. Man's answers don't satisfy! So unbelievers keep asking the same questions over and over again because they're asking imperfect humans instead of God alone. Their search for truth will never end because they're asking the wrong sources.

 

[Arikay]

But when you ask God, do you not filter the answer through your brain that has been shaped by society and your own life?
I see asking other people as getting a peer review of your filtering ability.

Just think of the lives that might still be here if the women who thought she heard God had asked peoples opinions before she drowned her children.

I have noticed that many people claim to ask God about moral decisions, yet we hear multiple answers and every person assumes that they are right because God said so. How do we know when its really Gods answer?

 

[Ryal Kane]

Do atheists not believe their own opinions are right and the authors of the bible are wrong? Do atheists believe Jesus? yes or no. If so, why do they not follow him? If not, they obviously believe they know better than Jesus. Is that not true? I believe that JESUS knows better than i do who God is which is PRECISELY why i follow him! Do you believe that you know who God is better than Jesus does? If so, how have you shown the world that you have the authority from God to know who He is?

Since you asked a direct question, I will reply. Unfortunately there is no YES/ NO answer to most of them. I hope you'll try to follow me.

Do I believe my own opinions are right and the authors of the bible are wrong? I believe that I am right, however I acknowledge that I may not be. Other people believe they are right, so clearly being 'right' is subjective.
I believe the bible offers some very good advise and some very bad advise. It is right about some thigns and wrong about others. It is a very big book, and it was authored by humans just as fallible as myself.

Do I believe Jesus?
I cannot answer this question. Please expand or clarify.
Do I believe in the morals Jesus preaches? Mostly yes.
Do I believe that Jesus existed in history? Yes.
Do I believe he was the Son of God? No.

Christ said many things.
Some may have been wrong.
Some of what he said may have been written down wrong.
Some may have been copied or translated wrong.

Imagine this (This is an example, purely hypothetical and metaphorical)
Bob says "1+1=2 and everyone should pour paint on their head"
Is what Bob said right?
John says "Bob says 1+1=2 and everyone should pour paint on their head"
Is what John said true? If so, is what Bob said right?
Max says "This book says Bob says 1+1=2 and everyone should pour glue on their head"
Is what Max said true?

You must see the potential for confusion.
All you have done by saying saying Jesus knows God better than you is taken a step back. The exact same problem still exists.
If we do not believe that the Bible is the word of Jesus/God then why should the books claims be given any more merit than any one else?

You're caught in a loop of terrible cyclic logic.
Jesus knows God therefore Jesus is right about God.
Jesus must be right about God because Jesus knows God.

You seem utterly incapable of comprehending that there are people who don't believe in god. I find this terribly sad.

Ryal Kane

Slayers' question has still not been answered.
Do you believe you know better then Odin , or not ?