Right Said Fred

[Nancy Hale]

He makes no attempt at all to imagine a natural or even cultural explanation for his sense of right/wrong or just/unjust. He just assumes it must come from a higher being. That's where this portion of his argument falls very short for me.

He does, this is just one chapter, or part of a chapter. In which cultures, thru out time, do you think there has been no social mores?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Let me make an analogy; Say I make a character design--we will call her Lily. I create her looks, her personality, and give her a name. I now own the rights to the character 'Lily'.

Let's say now that I decide to lease her out to people to use her in films. I decide on which guidelines they must follow including how Lily is presented in their work. There's nothing subjective about what can/cannot be done with her, because I created her. I set the rules, not the people using her. They don't need to know my reasoning behind it at all.

This is a bit scary. Are you saying that if god wants to enslave people, have them raped, torture in hell forever (which he has done or will do all these things) he has the moral authority to do that just because he created us? That is not morality, that is a dictator that can do whatever he wants because he no one can stop him. If a god created us that doesn't give him the moral authority to do whatever he wants with us. Would it be moral to let Lily get beaten in a film if your rules allowed that?

I believe the same concept would apply to a higher power. If we were actually created by a higher being, as it's creation, it would be the one attributing traits and rules to us--and changing those rules doesn't make them non-absolute, since it is an authority figure. Besides, absolute is referring to something that is independent on other factors; not something unchanging.

Humans can't attribute these things to other humans, since at base level we're all equal and anything is fair game.

This is where I disagree. I and many other non believers base our morality of some form of well being. God does not, what happens when I disagree with gods morality? Am I forced to do what I consider immoral things because god says it is ok? Would a god be moral if he forces people to do things against their own morality?

..Besides, let's face it; If everything in existence was created by a higher power, we can assume it also created the concept of morality anyways. It's not bound by subjectivity at that point if it created the very concepts.

Can god change his mind about what is moral? If so, then it is a subjective morality, If not, then he is not the author of morality.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

This is exactly why we can't derive morality from anything here on Earth.

I disagree. I derive my morality from thinking and discussing with others. I base my actions on a goal of well being and I can objectively compare my actions to that standard to see if it is a moral act or not. What is wrong with a moral standard of maximizing well being for all?

 

[durangodawood]

He does, this is just one chapter, or part of a chapter. In which cultures, thru out time, do you think there has been no social mores?

Every culture has social mores. Even other social animals seem to have rules for behavior.

The natural conditions of being human dictate certain behaviors that promote group survival, and ones that threaten it.

 

[Nancy Hale]

No, I can't see how that would be possible. Since measuring reality by belief will only give us a inaccurate view of reality.

"Why can't you humans see that it is your particular beliefs that are causing hell on earth?"
Is a faith statement. You're following some religion. To figure out what, you need to define what you think "reality" is. (Which you are also taking on faith)
Whatever it is you have an incredible amount of faith. That certainly isn't a thing you are lacking in.

 

[Nancy Hale]

Every culture has social mores. Even other social animals seem to have rules for behavior.

The natural conditions of being human dictate certain behaviors that promote group survival, and ones that threaten it.

And, WHO dictates the natural conditions of being human?

 

[durangodawood]

And, WHO dictates the natural conditions of being human?

No one. Its initially the result of natural processes. And then cultural processes as well.

 

[Nancy Hale]

No one. Its initially the result of natural processes. And then cultural processes as well.

And what PROOF do you have, or are you just taking that on faith?

 

[durangodawood]

And what PROOF do you have, or are you just taking that on faith?

This is my best understanding based on an interested layman's study of natural history and human anthropology. Its certainly not proof. But it doesnt rely on speculations about entire other realms for which there's no evidence whatsoever.

 

[Nancy Hale]

This is my best understanding based on an interested layman's study of natural history and human anthropology. Its certainly not proof. But it doesnt rely on speculations about entire other realms for which there's no evidence whatsoever.

It does rely on speculation; Anthropology and natural history are both speculation at best.

 

[durangodawood]

It does rely on speculation; Anthropology and natural history are both speculation at best.

Absolutely there's some speculation, and there's hard evidence too. However, its vastly less speculation than imagining a whole other realm of reality for which there is no evidence at all.

I'm not 100% confident about my naturalistic explanation for human morality. Its merely the explanation that makes more sense than the others given what I know.

 

[NeverL0ved]

"Why can't you humans see that it is your particular beliefs that are causing hell on earth?"
Is a faith statement. You're following some religion. To figure out what, you need to define what you think "reality" is. (Which you are also taking on faith)
Whatever it is you have an incredible amount of faith. That certainly isn't a thing you are lacking in.

Faith for me is to hope for the best and be prepared for the worst.

I sure hope that you humans will catch on quick, otherwise it is going to be curtains

 

[Jok]

I sure hope that you humans will catch on quick, otherwise it is going to be curtains

Unfortunately us everyday humans have little to do with the world being a train wreck. The governments and the media steer the madness way way more than we do. They also co-opt anything good that suits their purpose. I mean the Catholic Church was pretty much the government for a very long time! Once anything at all contains power and influence the sociopaths will infiltrate it, it happens all the time whether religious or secular.