Right but repulsive?

[colinlindsay]

I read a blog where he said that Jesus was coming back and he was going to judge us on our doctrine. Well he was having a go at charismatics at the time. There was the strong implication that this would be a salvation issue.
Now, what exactly DID jesus say he was looking for on the earth when he returned?

 

[JimfromOhio]

Well.. for the topic on "judge us on our doctrine", I will focus on this......

A determination to know what cannot be known will harm fellow Christians. God has warned that He will take the wise in their own craftiness and bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. If we believe God and honor His Word, if we walk by faith in love and obedience, there will be eternal rewards for each of us in that great coming day. Our rewards will differ according to His will because He will make the right judgments for each of us.

For teachers/preachers/witnessing or whoever is explaining doctrines to other people. God will judge those who explain false doctrines. James 3:1 "Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly."

We should be judging ourselves rather judging others. God is not impressed by my appearance (1. Samuel 16:7). The Lord said to Samuel, "Don't judge by his appearance or height, for I have rejected him. The Lord don't make decisions the way you do. People judge by outward appearance, but the Lord looks at a person's thoughts and intentions (heart)." (NLT)

Another possibility is this: Jesus said in Matthew 7:22-23"Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

 

[colinlindsay]

Well.. for the topic on "judge us on our doctrine", I will focus on this......

A determination to know what cannot be known will harm fellow Christians. God has warned that He will take the wise in their own craftiness and bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. If we believe God and honor His Word, if we walk by faith in love and obedience, there will be eternal rewards for each of us in that great coming day. Our rewards will differ according to His will because He will make the right judgments for each of us.

For teachers/preachers/witnessing or whoever is explaining doctrines to other people. God will judge those who explain false doctrines. James 3:1 "Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly."

We should be judging ourselves rather judging others. God is not impressed by my appearance (1. Samuel 16:7). The Lord said to Samuel, "Don't judge by his appearance or height, for I have rejected him. The Lord don't make decisions the way you do. People judge by outward appearance, but the Lord looks at a person's thoughts and intentions (heart)." (NLT)

Another possibility is this: Jesus said in Matthew 7:22-23"Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Thanks for the reply. Here's my belated contribution.
Jesus said "When the Son of Man returns will he find faith on the earth?" The subsequent and prior verses certainly seem to imply righteous and compassionate activity. Howver I recognise that those who like preaching and discernment, will interpret feeding as feeding on the word of God. But we can't all exercise our faith like this.

 

[Rick Otto]

exactly.
We can't all be sowers, & we can't all be reapers.

 

[bradfordl]

Jesus said "When the Son of Man returns will he find faith on the earth?"

If what it is that faith is in matters, then doctrine matters, does it not?

 

[s0journ3r]

If what it is that faith is in matters, then doctrine matters, does it not?

I believe doctrine matters & it breaks my heart to see so many people treating it like it's a dirty word. Paul admonished Timothy to:

1 Timothy 4:16 :: Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
​

Yours truly in Christ,
sojourner

 

[JimfromOhio]

Christians are divided on doctrine issues (teaching issues). This have been going on since the New Testament days (Read First Corinthians 9:11-17). Doctrines (teachings) that impacted many Christian lives and they are using doctrines more than they are using Holy Spirit to guide their Christian walk. Teach me your way, O LORD, and I will walk in your truth; give me an undivided heart, that I may fear your name. — Psalm 86:11. The Holy Spirit that leads my thoughts and shapes my character. Our true moral and spiritual state is revealed by the Spirit through prayer and studying the Word. Are we studying the Bible for our spiritual growth and observing (obeying) God's Word? Is our personal Bible study a daily discipline for our spiritual growth to make sure I don't fall into false teachings? The Bible teaches that God is love; some have interpreted this in such a way as virtually to deny that He is just, which the Bible also teaches. The biblical doctrine of God's goodness so far that it is made to contradict His holiness. The biblical doctrine of God's compassion cancel out His truth.

Truth is Jesus.

 

[bradfordl]

oops! double response. sorry!

 

[bradfordl]

Doctrines (teachings) that impacted many Christian lives and they are using doctrines more than they are using Holy Spirit to guide their Christian walk.

If doctrine is truth, then it should in no way contradict the Holy Spirit, right? I believe what the Holy Spirit teaches us is doctrine, and mainly through the Word He gave to us. The modern interpretation of being led by the Spirit as some mystical revelation rather the plain written Word is suspect to me. If the doctrine/teachings are biblically sound, then they are the leading of the Spirit.

 

[JimfromOhio]

If doctrine is truth, then it should in no way contradict the Holy Spirit, right? I believe what the Holy Spirit teaches us is doctrine, and mainly through the Word He gave to us. The modern interpretation of being led by the Spirit as some mystical revelation rather the plain written Word is suspect to me. If the doctrine/teachings are biblically sound, then they are the leading of the Spirit.

Yes.... our Christian faith is inward, not outward because the Bible teaches that faith is of the spirit and not of the flesh. Christ dwells in our hearts, and "Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Colossians 1:27) is the burning core of the Christian faith. The Holy Spirit (through Jesus Christ) is the final authority. When Jesus said that the Comforter is coming, He was saying: "The Comforter will not come to stand on His own, to speak on His own authority. He will guide you into all truth-He will speak and act on the authority of the divine Godhead: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God is spirit and faith is required to know Christ and then, the Holy Spirit will reveal who God really is. The Holy Spirit gave me assurance of my faith and doctrines I follow. No Church, No Denomination, No pastors or anyone can do this for me. Holy Spirit is the ONLY person who can do this through the Word of God.

 

[bradfordl]

When Jesus said that the Comforter is coming, He was saying: "The Comforter will not come to stand on His own, to speak on His own authority. He will guide you into all truth-He will speak and act on the authority of the divine Godhead: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God is spirit and faith is required to know Christ and then, the Holy Spirit will reveal who God really is...

Jim, is this a quote or a paraphrase? Not that I disagree with what you say, but when someone says "He was saying" before stating something not directly from scripture I start having twitches and palpatations.

 

[RonnyRulz]

Jim, is this a quote or a paraphrase? Not that I disagree with what you say, but when someone says "He was saying" before stating something not directly from scripture I start having twitches and palpatations.

lol, SEIZURE!!!!

 

[JimfromOhio]

Jim, is this a quote or a paraphrase? Not that I disagree with what you say, but when someone says "He was saying" before stating something not directly from scripture I start having twitches and palpatations.

This is my paraphrase from John 14 and my studies.

I am glad I am making twitches and palpatations... at least someone is paying attention.

 

[colinlindsay]

This is my paraphrase from John 14 and my studies.

I am glad I am making twitches and palpatations... at least someone is paying attention.

I like your Tozer quote.
Let me ramble.
I know a number of Christians who left church because the doctrine wasn't adequate. Others because the pastor didn't give the 'full' gospel. Others because he wouldn't give his take on the end-times. Others because he stayed with what was basic. Others becuase of difference over what was a salvation issue.
Many of these people have gone off an individualistic searches for the TRUTH. No church is good enough. In fact their doctrine on the church is inadequate.
I had one guy day that he wasn't going to rest until he'd dotted the i's and crossed the t's of his biblical understanding. And guess what - he has no rest. Another person is still floating and not committing. Another now enjoys a ministry via the internet with his favourite teacher and will travel 50 miles to an approved 'fellowship'.
My Orthodox friend says the one telling criticism of evangelicalism is the doctrinal division and lack of understanding of church. I can't dispute that. If you locked all the discernment ministers and bible expositors up in a room and said they couldn't come out until the got the 'answer' do you think it would work? Or do you think there would be a fight?

 

[JimfromOhio]

I like your Tozer quote.
Let me ramble.
I know a number of Christians who left church because the doctrine wasn't adequate. Others because the pastor didn't give the 'full' gospel. Others because he wouldn't give his take on the end-times. Others because he stayed with what was basic. Others becuase of difference over what was a salvation issue.
Many of these people have gone off an individualistic searches for the TRUTH. No church is good enough. In fact their doctrine on the church is inadequate.
I had one guy day that he wasn't going to rest until he'd dotted the i's and crossed the t's of his biblical understanding. And guess what - he has no rest. Another person is still floating and not committing. Another now enjoys a ministry via the internet with his favourite teacher and will travel 50 miles to an approved 'fellowship'.
My Orthodox friend says the one telling criticism of evangelicalism is the doctrinal division and lack of understanding of church. I can't dispute that. If you locked all the discernment ministers and bible expositors up in a room and said they couldn't come out until the got the 'answer' do you think it would work? Or do you think there would be a fight?

My favorite theologians are:
A.W. Tozer (Non-Refomer but close)
Martin Lloyd-Jones (Calvinist-Methodist)
Many others from different backgrounds. If you put them all in one room, you will hear them disagree one way or another. I never met a Christian who agrees with what I believe 100%, including my own wife.

 

[colinlindsay]

My favorite theologians are:
A.W. Tozer (Non-Refomer but close)
Martin Lloyd-Jones (Calvinist-Methodist)
Many others from different backgrounds. If you put them all in one room, you will hear them disagree one way or another. I never met a Christian who agrees with what I believe 100%, including my own wife.

Hello Jim,
Thanks for your comments. Do you think they would just disagree? Or do you not think there is something in the protestant project that will ultimately lead to discord?
Is this not why God gave us 1 Corinthians 13? And going back to my point. What is the faith that Jesus expects to find in his people. Is it correct doctrine.? What is correct doctrine? Is assent sufficient? True doctine is this.... (James etc)

 

[Nadiine]

I like your Tozer quote.
Let me ramble.
I know a number of Christians who left church because the doctrine wasn't adequate. Others because the pastor didn't give the 'full' gospel. Others because he wouldn't give his take on the end-times. Others because he stayed with what was basic. Others becuase of difference over what was a salvation issue.
Many of these people have gone off an individualistic searches for the TRUTH. No church is good enough. In fact their doctrine on the church is inadequate.
I had one guy day that he wasn't going to rest until he'd dotted the i's and crossed the t's of his biblical understanding. And guess what - he has no rest. Another person is still floating and not committing. Another now enjoys a ministry via the internet with his favourite teacher and will travel 50 miles to an approved 'fellowship'.
My Orthodox friend says the one telling criticism of evangelicalism is the doctrinal division and lack of understanding of church. I can't dispute that. If you locked all the discernment ministers and bible expositors up in a room and said they couldn't come out until the got the 'answer' do you think it would work? Or do you think there would be a fight?

This is an interesting post - I agree there are MANY views and beliefs out there by some of the greatest Bible scholars out there (past and present).

Here's how I view it:
Paul, Mark and Barnabus divided and split up in their ministries due to disagreement in Acts:

Act 15:39 And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus;​

So by this example, we see that we won't ALL agree on Everything for various reasons which can include: physical wisdom, spiritual wisdom, physical age (maturity), spiritual age (spiritual maturity), level of faith, misunderstanding/misperception, level of discernment, lack of education in Hebrew/Greek, lack of seeking the Lord for truth, lack of study, spiritual pride, spiritual rebellion, spiritual apathy, personal sin, the Bible's lack of full clarity, language barriers... etc.

Clearly, if 2 Godly people hold opposing views on the same teaching, ONE of them (or both) will be wrong. What's important is that they have the CENTRAL doctrines correct to BE Born Again and perhaps at a later time, they'll both agree.

We can differ on minor doctrines... like Luke 16:19-31... some people call that a parable, others call it a literal event.
Our salvation doesn't pivot on believing whether it's a parable or not... but we CAN agree on the POINT of that story. It shows a very negative result if one isn't born again.

One thing I've learned tho, is when I discuss scripture passages w/ someone, and they have a large majority of "messed up" understandings of even plain verses, I quickly start asking them about CENTRAL/essential doctrines.
Often, I find that they ultimately reject one or more of the very doctrines that determine our salvation. Imo, MOST born again Christians do have a general unity in agreement on scripture and have a like mind.

When you constantly oppose someone else scripturally, (to me), it's a pretty good indicator that you might not be of the Same unity of Spirit (or there's something wrong or some spiritual issue)... because I truly believe God gives us a deep unity of agreement in a majority of teachings/principles.

Phl 2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, [being] of one accord, of one mind.​

Eventually (and hopefully), we'll all grow & mature and become more knowledgable in the Lord as we go along.

I believe the KEY is to be able to admit we don't know everything there is to know, and have a teachable spirit.
I want to always be willing to be shown by God's Word.

 

[colinlindsay]

This is an interesting post - I agree there are MANY views and beliefs out there by some of the greatest Bible scholars out there (past and present).

Here's how I view it:
Paul, Mark and Barnabus divided and split up in their ministries due to disagreement in Acts:

Act 15:39 And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus;​

So by this example, we see that we won't ALL agree on Everything for various reasons which can include: physical wisdom, spiritual wisdom, physical age (maturity), spiritual age (spiritual maturity), level of faith, misunderstanding/misperception, level of discernment, lack of education in Hebrew/Greek, lack of seeking the Lord for truth, lack of study, spiritual pride, spiritual rebellion, spiritual apathy, personal sin, the Bible's lack of full clarity, language barriers... etc.

Clearly, if 2 Godly people hold opposing views on the same teaching, ONE of them (or both) will be wrong. What's important is that they have the CENTRAL doctrines correct to BE Born Again and perhaps at a later time, they'll both agree.

We can differ on minor doctrines... like Luke 16:19-31... some people call that a parable, others call it a literal event.
Our salvation doesn't pivot on believing whether it's a parable or not... but we CAN agree on the POINT of that story. It shows a very negative result if one isn't born again.

One thing I've learned tho, is when I discuss scripture passages w/ someone, and they have a large majority of "messed up" understandings of even plain verses, I quickly start asking them about CENTRAL/essential doctrines.
Often, I find that they ultimately reject one or more of the very doctrines that determine our salvation. Imo, MOST born again Christians do have a general unity in agreement on scripture and have a like mind.

When you constantly oppose someone else scripturally, (to me), it's a pretty good indicator that you might not be of the Same unity of Spirit (or there's something wrong or some spiritual issue)... because I truly believe God gives us a deep unity of agreement in a majority of teachings/principles.

Phl 2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, [being] of one accord, of one mind.​

Eventually (and hopefully), we'll all grow & mature and become more knowledgable in the Lord as we go along.

I believe the KEY is to be able to admit we don't know everything there is to know, and have a teachable spirit.
I want to always be willing to be shown by God's Word.

Thanks forv that.
I know we should not judge the individual but what do you think of a person who follows John Macarthur round with placards accusing him of having wrong doctrine on , wait for it, the power of the blood of Jesus. Is it the actual blood or is it figurative?
Where do you draw the line on what is a salvation issue.
Support of Israel, the gifts dying out etc etc. You have to agree on this I would argue before unity and fellowship will ever be possible.
Sooner our later, and this is my experience, somebody will touch the doctrinal "apple of your eye" , your sensitive point and walking together ceases.
Isn't this the risk and in fact the reality of the protestant project?
But, Jesus said he requires unity. Can it happen in evangelicalism?

 

[Nadiine]

But, Jesus said he requires unity. Can it happen in evangelicalism?

Can it happen? Sure... IF all Christians would ALWAYS obey God. Will we? doubtful!

We want unity, but we ourselves don't unify individually as God requires. I include myself too.

True unity isn't when we just ignore other's attacks in order to maintain "peace". TRUE unity is when the [wrongful] attacks aren't hurled in the first place. (imo)