Right and Wrong

[chipdouglas]

i have mentioned before that i was raised Christian, and still believe that there is a traditional interpretation of Judeo-Christian principles that is correct, but that i am still a little unsure of where i stand. basically, i feel that i know it's one of the two religions or a combination of principles, but i have been sitting on the fence for the last couple of years trying to decide what is right and what's not. with my background out of the way, i have some difficult fundamental questions that have gone unanswered. any suggestions are welcome.

-WHY is there right and wrong?
-WAS there only goodness before Lucifer/Satan turned?
-WHO are angels?
-HOW did angels come into existence?
-WHY do we have a morals system?
-DID God create "good and evil"? (If not evil, then how could evil exist?)

And i guess the biggest question that i don't expect any man could knowingly accurately respond to is one that also relates to all of these...

-WHY ARE WE HERE?

it seems to me that God could have just as easily never made humans. OR, if he insisted on creating us...

-WHY couldn't we just have started life IN heaven?
-WHY do we have to go through this game of life, and THEN go to heaven?

All the tragedy, all the suffering, all the ups and downs of life.

-WHY?

It seems like it would make more sense to begin life in heaven. Now i realize that more than half of these questions are probably impossible to answer, but if anybody has any idea or any opinions derived from Scripture, i would be much obliged to hear any opinions on this matter. i'd like to end the uncertainty and get a little peace. thanks.

 

[revolutio]

Define Good and Evil, that will help the discussion methinks.

 

[penguingel]

Define Good and Evil, that will help the discussion methinks.

Or try defining one without presupposing the other - each is neccesary for the other to exist.

 

[jonah]

God gives us His Word (Bible) for us to know the plumb line in our life (what is right or wrong). I would recommend if you want to know the answers to these questions begin an indepth study of the Bible and get some time with God. Otherwise, what is the point of claiming to be a Christian if you don't spend time getting to know your God?? He promises to reveal His truth to those who earnestly seek Him.

From a Biblical point of view we are here to glorify Christ. From beginning to end the Bible is about glorifying Jesus Christ, for God the Father has chosen that to please Him (too many verses to mention)

The one question God doesn't answer though is the "why" question but desires obedience and faith. He has a plan and He will use even the disobendient to fulfill that (Hence my user name Jonah )

God has a greater plan with or without us. Maybe that is why so many get angry at the supposition of God. He can do what He desires even without us....or as most would feel....US.(capital letters indetifying the pride in ourselves).

Be sure to know though, His motives are pure, His love is deep and His power is eternal.

AMOS 4:13
For behold, He who forms mountains and creates the wind
And declares to man what are His thoughts,
He who makes dawn into darkness
And treads on the high places of the earth,
The LORD God of hosts is His name.

 

[Zoot]

WHY is there right and wrong?

Who says there is?

WAS there only goodness before Lucifer/Satan turned?

Who? Well, goodness has little meaning without at least the concept of evil with which to contrast it. It's like asking if there was ever a time when there was up without down.

DID God create "good and evil"? (If not evil, then how could evil exist?)

When I was Christian, I would have said that God creates evil in the same way that the sun creates shadows. By existing and setting forth what goodness and holiness and love are, and by us having the choice to choose to turn towards or away from those things, there is the potential for us to "cast a shadow" of an absence of goodness, an absence we call evil.

WHY ARE WE HERE?

The question is meaningless.

 

[the_malevolent_milk_man]

I'll give it a go explaining it from a christian PoV.

-WHY is there right and wrong?
-WAS there only goodness before Lucifer/Satan turned?
-WHO are angels?
-HOW did angels come into existence?
-WHY do we have a morals system?
-DID God create "good and evil"? (If not evil, then how could evil exist?)
-WHY ARE WE HERE?
-WHY couldn't we just have started life IN heaven?
-WHY do we have to go through this game of life, and THEN go to heaven?



- God defines how we should live.
- Not any scripture on this, can only guess.
- Angels are spirits created by God to serve. (vague, I know)
- God created them.
- God instilled these values in us.
- God created everything but did not create evil on purpose. He created free will which can lead to evil.
- God has a purpose for us, even if we can't see it.
- Because man is sinful and fell from grace.
- Life is a test.


Ugh, I feel dirty for having typed that. Those are probabbly some of the most common christian answers you'd get. Now for how I'd really answer those.

- Causing harm to others is labled wrong, helping is labled right.
- Probabbly. 1/3rd of angels rebelled against God, something might have been wrong in Heaven.
- Christian rip off of the greek goddess of Victory Nike.
- Early christians incorperated pagan holidays and figures into christianity. Angels look exactly like Nike (robe, wings, human, sometimes carries a lyre[harplike instrument])
- Man is a social animal, a values system is necesarry to maintain order in a social setting.
- Assuming the bible is true, God created evil thru proxy.
- We're here because the earth is a habitable planet where life is possible.
- Because heaven doesn't exist.
- See above.

 

[Jet Black]

Define Good and Evil, that will help the discussion methinks.

Good is real ale, Evil is cheap lager Exports.

 

[Diatrive]

Good is real ale, Evil is cheap lager Exports.

I think that is the most accurate explanation of good and evil I have ever heard.

 

[Diatrive]

From a Biblical point of view we are here to glorify Christ. From beginning to end the Bible is about glorifying Jesus Christ, for God the Father has chosen that to please Him (too many verses to mention)

I have never heard any one with this idea.

Playing devils advocate:

What was the purpose of our existence before Christ?

 

[Havoc]

To feed the flames

 

[Mephster]

-WHY is there right and wrong?
-WAS there only goodness before Lucifer/Satan turned?
-WHO are angels?
-HOW did angels come into existence?
-WHY do we have a morals system?
-DID God create "good and evil"? (If not evil, then how could evil exist?)

I do not believe that good and evil are co-existently necessary. It IS possible for GOOD to exist without there being evil. (note: opinion)

 

[Diatrive]

Okay, how would you be able to recognize good if it were not contrasted with evil.

That is like saying that Snifflehelm can exist without Brufflehelm.

We could be living in a perfect state of Snifflehelm and not even know it. People who are subjected to a horrible existence where Brufflehelm rules the hearts of men would beg and plead to live our Brufflehelm free lives.

 

[Mephster]

Well, for one, I do not maintain that good and evil (as far as morality goes) are relative.

Ontologically, I maintain that there exists God, and that whatever is called God is "Good" in an absolute and essential way.

 

[Diatrive]

Okay, but do you recognize that if "evil" did not exist, than you would not be able to recognize "good"?

Not that this contradicts anything in your posts, I am just curious.

 

[Mephster]

if "evil" did not exist, than you would not be able to recognize "good"?


Epistemologically speaking, I'm not sure of this... I do think one IS able to recognize good - without knowing evil.

 

[the_malevolent_milk_man]

For "good" to exist their must be "evil". Without the yin there is no yang. There is simply existence which is neither good nor evil, it simply exists. However to an outside observer with knowledge of good and evil they could recognize it as one or the other, but to the individual who knows only good there is simply existence.

 

[shunammite]

My answers are all based on how I understand the Bible.

-WHY is there right and wrong?
Because we are vulnerable, "right" is what is "expeditious" for the "flesh" and "wrong" is what is deadly to the flesh. But all things are lawful, looking at the Big Picture, nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. I Cor 6:12, 10:23, Romans 8:39.

-WAS there only goodness before Lucifer/Satan turned?

I have no information about that, lol. But "Satan" means "traducer", "puts to shame"...or mudslinger, the original Greek. He seems to be the destructive aspect of God, Ex 12:23, "the destroyer", Heb 2:14-15, "the devil" has the power of death, I Cor 5:5, he is the destroyer of "the flesh"...which is necessary, for the development of the Spirit, the outward man perishes, the inward man is renewed, II Cor 4:16, "thou fool that which thou sowest is not quickened except it die", I Cor 15:36.

-WHO are angels?

Messengers of God. It just means "messenger"...I believe any person can be a "messenger"...wittingly or no. I believe when Jacob wrestled with "the man" who turned out to be "God", this was the "brother he hated", Esau...his "adversary", with whom we must "agree" before we are ready to worship God aright, Matt 5:25.

-HOW did angels come into existence? I have no information on that...I believe they emanate from God, like everything else.

-WHY do we have a morals system? See "why we have right and wrong." Also, every person is "unique" and it is CHAOS if there are no agreed upon "rules"...to facilitate interaction among us while we are immature and inconsiderate of each other.

-DID God create "good and evil"? (If not evil, then how could evil exist?)

I believe "evil" is when God WITHDRAWS HIMSELF, or "hides His face". He does SAY He Creates Evil, Is 45:7, and even the wicked for the day of evil, Prov 16:4. The "day of evil", I believe that is our mortal lives, all our days are passed away in the wrath, they hunt every man his brother with a net, Ps 90:9, Micah 7. Sufficent unto the day is the evil thereof, amen! A gracious plenty to be sure. And all participants are "wicked"...to me that is a matter of BLINDNESS..."all the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes", but his eyesight is imperfect, we see through a glass darkly, blindness has happened in part...

 

[chipdouglas]

thanks to the 3 or 4 of you believers who gave meaningful answers and no thanks to the majority who gave the stereotypical responses of adamant non-believers. i thought the way the questions were phrased established the fact that i do believe in all those things. i thought this would have been ample evidence that i wasn't looking for a response from a frank, pessimistic atheistic point of view. about what shunammite said though...

My answers are all based on how I understand the Bible.
-WHY is there right and wrong?
Because we are vulnerable, "right" is what is "expeditious" for the "flesh" and "wrong" is what is deadly to the flesh. But all things are lawful, looking at the Big Picture, nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. I Cor 6:12, 10:23, Romans 8:39.

isn't the belief that ''anything' that can be deadly to the flesh is wrong' somewhat of a slippery slope? i mean, skydiving is dangerous... does that mean it's wrong? i don't know if this is exactly what you meant to say; i was just wondering if it gets any more specific than that. thank you for one of the few thoughtful responses

 

[jonah]

By Diatrive "What was the purpose of our existence before Christ?"

Sorry, I don't know how to do the fancy quote box (working on it)
Diatrive, I assume you mean the OT? Before Christ came?So I will answer so. From the beginning God was involved with Adam to Noah, Moses, Abraham and SO MANY others until Christ came. Genesis begins with God proclaiming the battle between Satan and the promised Messiah (Genesis3:15) Romans and Hebrews speaks consistantly how God credited as righteousness those who believed in Him. Romans 5 speaks how sin entered the world through Adam, continues and ultimatly culminates in the extordinary gift of God (Jesus) who is greater than the trespass of sin. Vs's 18-21 speaks how how when the law (Law of Moses) was given so that sin would increase..showing the need for Christ all the more.
God had a relationship with Adam, Noah, Moses and Abraham..many whose faith and understanding of God was credited to them..long before Christ came. To ask what the purpose of our existence before Christ is to ask essentially why were we made in the first place. God made man (Genesis account) and called it good. We were designed to have a relationship with God. Man messed it up (Rom 5:12) and God has reclaimed His original purpose with Christs pure blood.

Back to the post by Shunammite about why there is right and wrong?

Are all things permissible?? No. Is this a question as in Rom 3:5-8 basically saying if my falsehood increases God's truthfulness and so increases His glory then something is ok? "lawful"? No, it isn't and Paul rebukes the persons quoted.
Right and wrong from a Biblical perspective is directed by what God says is right and wrong. Just because we can sin, and God's grace and forgiveness is bigger than that sin does not mean it is ok. "Right" would be as righteousness. Are we talking about 'moral' issues or decisions to go skydiving????

 

[jonah]

Sorry, re-reading Chip Douglas question of "Why did God create evil?"
I think I understand this question to mean that God created evil as He created the world?? No, I don't think there is any basis for that in Scripture. God is perfect and holy. He cannot tolerate sin or 'evil'. It would be against His character to advocate 'evil'. Lucifer had the choice and desired to be greater than God. God cannot have anything less than perfect holiness in His presence so He cast Lucifer out. (and his associates too) Adam chose to sin as Lucifer desired and sought an opportunity to turn mankind against God's good plan.
Lucifer is the Liar, Deciever and complete father of evil. It is the antithiesis of God but only because He desires to have God's place and not to honor God as He deserves.

Am I on track with this conversation? This is difficult to keep straight!