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Richard Dawkins vs Conall and Donall

MoreCoffee

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How are those evidences? Scientology meetings aren't evidence for scientology, and neither is L. Ron Hubbard's book.

I know very little of Scientology so your post's analogy is lost on me. But I have read the four canonical gospels and I believe them. They are very ancient. They purport to record events in the life of Jesus Christ, I believe in him too. They are evidence of the faith of Christians and of the events upon which that faith stands though the faith of Christians rests in Jesus Christ more than in events.
 
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MoreCoffee

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If that's how you see yourself :thumbsup:

If you don't understand something you just don't understand something

It is amazing how much wiser the young are than the old; so fully informed and so fully experienced as your post indicates. If an old guy doesn't understand then he just doesn't understand. So pitiable is age and experience ... ;)
 
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HammerOfThor

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GrimKingGrim

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It is amazing how much wiser the young are than the old; so fully informed and so fully experienced as your post indicates. If an old guy doesn't understand then he just doesn't understand. So pitiable is age and experience ... ;)

Age has nothing to do with it. You just don't understand :cool:
 
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MoreCoffee

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I know very little of Scientology so your post's analogy is lost on me. But I have read the four canonical gospels and I believe them. They are very ancient. They purport to record events in the life of Jesus Christ, I believe in him too. They are evidence of the faith of Christians and of the events upon which that faith stands though the faith of Christians rests in Jesus Christ more than in events.

I know very little of Scientology so your post's analogy is lost on me.
My point was that people practicing a religion or the existence of the religion's texts isn't evidence for the religion.
... They are very ancient.
There are several other ancient religious texts, so I don't really see the relevance of "ancientness".
.... and of the events upon which that faith stands...
in what way?

I reckon something got lost in the transcription from my post to yours. So I included my post. Maybe the context of the snippets will help to answer your final question. I highlighted the snippets using bold in my post. Hope it helps ...
 
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HitchSlap

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You've read the four Gospels?

Which ancient myths have you also read?



Because I have heard this before and I'd like to know how long those who say it have been students in literary criticism and what styles of literature they have studied. Its only that a foremost literary critic of the twentieth century CS Lewis disagreed and I want to know whether whether his comments for instance on modern biblical scholarship have been mistaken. How long have you been chair of literary criticism in a major centre of learning or university? But in any case thats maybe asking a bit much - and as Lewis said

"I only want to point out that this [whether the miraculous occurs] is a purely philosophical question. Scholars as scholars speak on it with no more authority than anyone else. The canon "If miraculous, unhistorical" is one they bring to their study of the texts, not one they have learned from it. If one is speaking of authority, the united authority of all the Biblical critics in the world counts for nothing. On this they speak simply as men; men obviously influenced by, and perhaps insufficiently critical of, the spirit of the age they grew up in." CS Lewis - Fernseed and Elephants.

"...a suspicion may occur that supernaturalism first arose from reading into the universe the structure of monarchial societies. But then of course it may with equal reason be suspected that naturalism has arisen from reading into it the structure of modern democracies. The two suspicions thus cancel out and give us no help in deciding which theory is more likely to be true." CS Lewis - Miracles: a preliminary study

"the sanity of the world was restored and the soul of man offered salvation by something which did indeed satisfy the two warring tendencies of the past; which had never been satisfied in full and most certainly never satisfied together. It met the mythological search for romance by being a story and the philosophical search for truth by being a true story." GK Chesterton.


John's Gospel is not completely different, but it would hardly be completely identical because for one thing though it seems trivial to say it John wasn't Matthew, Mark or Luke.

Not sure if you're serious, but I'll bite.

Yes, I've read the gospels, numerous times. Used to have much of it committed to memory. I've also read just about everything CSL ever wrote. CSL is a lay theologian, and was a professor of medieval literature, so his opinion on the gospels carries no more weight than yours or mine.

I am interested in what actual scholars do say, however, and current consensus is, the gospels are whole cloth fabrications, as is the book of Acts.
The gospels were written in third person narrative, by people who never met Jesus, in a language Jesus never spoke, and from countries Jesus never visited. Matthew and Luke copied heavily from Mark, and the author of John made up his own account. All three gospels were written about one hundred years after the supposed life of Jesus, and all four authors are anonymous.
If you timeline the four gospels, none of them line up, and there are glaring inconsistencies with real history.

There are zero contemporary sources that identify a man known as Jesus of Nazareth. In fact, his name doesn't even pop up until about 100 years later, right on time for a mythical character.
 
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HammerOfThor

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sorry this is a ridiculous statement - it is evidence, if not then what?

It's an ancient collection of stories. Perhaps you could consider it evidence, but it is incredibly weak evidence if it is.

since religion is not God, but the way people acknowledge the God of the religion through ceremonies etc. If you want to actually meet God directly you won't need evidence.

Evidence for religion and evidence for divinity are not the same

But which is it direct personal encounter with, or evidence you require?

I believe in a pantheist god of nature. For me pantheism means that "divinity is inseparable from nature and that deity is immanent in nature". So I simply define divinity differently.

You forgot that evidence doesn't automatically prove something, its just what is considered within the scope being significant.

Yes, and a secondhand account of a resurrection isn't very significant.

Thor's hammer is no evidence for Thor you'll have to also conclude following your line of logic.

Correct

Its just some artifact that you know little of where it came from and has been attributed to some mythological figure in literature known as Thor, whom no one has ever set eyes on, and obviously if he existed was pretty stupid to be separated from his hammer which obviously was made of granite and so aerodynamic it helped him fly!

:)

I agree. I don't believe in any specific pagan gods over others.
 
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HammerOfThor

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I reckon something got lost in the transcription from my post to yours. So I included my post. Maybe the context of the snippets will help to answer your final question. I highlighted the snippets using bold in my post. Hope it helps ...

I copied the parts that I responded to.
 
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TillICollapse

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I know very little of Scientology so your post's analogy is lost on me. But I have read the four canonical gospels and I believe them. They are very ancient. They purport to record events in the life of Jesus Christ, I believe in him too. They are evidence of the faith of Christians and of the events upon which that faith stands though the faith of Christians rests in Jesus Christ more than in events.
Have you ever met Jesus ? If so, what was it like meeting Him ? Can you describe the details ? I appreciate the details.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Have you ever met Jesus ? If so, what was it like meeting Him ? Can you describe the details ? I appreciate the details.

Is your question that coups de gras that will end my religious suffering? A mercy blow to religious thinking by means of what, exactly?

No, I've never met Jesus. Not face to face, nor in a vision, nor in a dream. Did you think that faith in Jesus Christ rests on meeting him? Oh never mind, I doubt anybody would seriously entertain such a notion.
 
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MoreCoffee

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I copied the parts that I responded to.

Yes, that was obvious. Did you deal with the other parts too? Were they considered as context? I suppose it doesn't matter really.

The video clip seems to be holding its own as this discussion advances. Posts are appearing that reflect the statements of cartoon-richard-dawkins very well indeed.
 
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HammerOfThor

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Yes, that was obvious. Did you deal with the other parts too?

Those were the parts where you were saying what you believed.

Were they considered as context? I suppose it doesn't matter really.

Yes of course, what exactly are you getting at?

Posts are appearing that reflect the statements of cartoon-richard-dawkins very well indeed.

Have any examples? None of mine, right?

I certainly hope I haven't been condescending
 
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TillICollapse

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Is your question that coups de gras that will end my religious suffering? A mercy blow to religious thinking by means of what, exactly?
I have no idea what you're getting at here. If you're projecting it's lost on me.

No, I've never met Jesus. Not face to face, nor in a vision, nor in a dream. Did you think that faith in Jesus Christ rests on meeting him? Oh never mind, I doubt anybody would seriously entertain such a notion.
If He is alive, I would think it reasonable to expect it possible to meet Him. It was a simple question. If you are a serious fan of Will Smith, I may ask you, "Have you ever met Will Smith ? I see you are a serious fan."

That's too bad you've never met Him. Why wouldn't anybody entertain such a notion ? Lot's of people have claimed to meet Jesus in various ways and believe He is alive.
 
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